How justify abortion in case of rape or incest?

[MiserereMeiDei]

Developmental state is not relevant. We are not Jews learning Talmud or Muslims learning Sharia. We are Catholics.

 

[Crocus]

Thank you for your perspective from a non-Catholic view. What religion does it represent?

 

[SalamKhan]

Developmental state is not relevant. We are not Jews learning Talmud or Muslims learning Sharia. We are Catholics.

On the Non-Catholic section of the forums. So I’m sure my voice is allowed to be heard, rather than be silenced. Besides, the question itself is in the context of extreme cases, so I don’t know why you’re treating it as a black and white issue.

You didn’t even explain why developmental stage is not relevant, you merely asserted it.

 

[SalamKhan]

Thank you for your perspective from a non-Catholic view. What religion does it represent?

Islam. Although there’s no black and white answer, it’s a complex issue in our religion.

 

[Crocus]

nowhere near fully developed. It may be living, but at that point it is merely a part of a woman’s body, like an organ, a non vital organ.

Yes certainly it is living. What science would assert it is no more than a part of a woman’s body? Or that it is anything other than the same living human that would emerge only 9 months later?

 

[SalamKhan]

What science would assert it is part of a woman’s body?

It’s a simile, “like an organ”.

 

[Crocus]

It’s a simile, “ like an organ”.

Yet so much more “not like” an organ, not like a tumor or a toenail to be removed. Those never continue to grow in their natural environment, to learn to speak, walk, love.

 

[SalamKhan]

The fetus changes depending on the stage of pregnancy, this is a fact. At the earliest stage, it is only a little more human than a sperm cell or an egg cell, wouldn’t you say?

In our religion, there are two positions. The first is that abortion is permitted in the first 120 days of pregnancy regardless of the reason, and thereafter only permitted in extreme cases such as if the life of the mother is in danger. The second position is that abortion is permitted only in extreme cases, regardless at what stage of pregnancy.

Here is more information:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/abortion_1.shtml

 

[Crocus]

only a little more human than a sperm cell or an egg cell, wouldn’t you say?

No, I wouldn’t say. Because neither cell can grow on it’s own. Only when they join are they a separate human being capable of one day going to school, serving their community, having children of their own.

It is helpful to have formal restrictions whether secular or religious because people often follow rules only when there are laws. (My husband only uses car seat belt because he might get fined if caught. )

I pray that all mother’s come to appreciate the value of the life growing within them, and for that reason alone, will choose to nurture and care for the little one, who is so dependent on her, and more vulnerable than at any future stage of his or her life.

 

[SalamKhan]

No, I wouldn’t say. Because neither cell can grow on it’s own.

Can the fetus “grow on its own” if the mother stops eating/drinking for nutrition?

 

[bassmansteiny]

I can’t site any articles because I don’t remember where exactly I read or heard this, maybe on Catholic Radio program. I also have a close friend who was a victim of date rape.

There are studies that show women go through just as much trauma and hurt after having an abortion, as much if not more than the actual case of rape (see my first sentenc). My friend and I have gotten into some deep discussions at times, she was a victim of rape. Her family told her she needed to have an abortion and she really had no support from them. This was before I met her and probably 15 years ago or more. She is still traumatized from going through with the abortion. She believes in God but thinks she is going to go to hell, she can’t see that God still loves her. She cries and drinks a lot around the month her baby would of been born and she won’t forgive herself. She is a border line alcoholic and I believe that started after the rape and abortion.

So you see sometimes the “cure”, abortion, is worse than the actual rape. At least it was in my friend’s case.

 

[Crocus]

grow on it’s own.

Let’s not be coy. We all know that the womb is the natural environment for a human at this stage of development.

 

[SalamKhan]

So, the growth/nutrition of the fetus in early stage of pregnancy is totally dependent on the woman it inhabits, and unlike in later stages of pregnancy it has no chance of survival without the woman.

 

[Crocus]

Her family told her she needed to have an abortion and she really had no support from them.

One tragedy of abortion is when people do not recognize the existence of human life, another is when women are pushed to violate what they know is their child in the womb.

 

[boldlygo]

…

It’s nowhere near fully developed. It may be living, but at that point it is merely a part of a woman’s body, like an organ, a non vital organ.

Have you ever studied developmental biology? Really studied it?
From the moment of conception, the new life is totally and completely a unique genetic entity, not ‘merely a part of a woman’s body…’ It is a life separate from the woman, and yet totally dependent on her throughout its development.

 

[SalamKhan]

If a woman was coerced into conceiving something she will not be able to nourish & sustain, does she have the right to take that life?

 

[Crocus]

If a woman was coerced into conceiving something she will not be able to nourish & sustain, does she have the right to take that life?

This woman deserves all the love and support she needs to carry her child to term.

Is the human life she carries of any less value, deserving of any less dignity than any other human life, created by the Almighty God, Author and Giver of all life? That is the number one consideration of Catholic teaching and understanding of the One God.

(Some non-Catholic and some non religious may share the same respect for life.)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

…

SalamKhan:

It’s nowhere near fully developed. It may be living, but at that point it is merely a part of a woman’s body, like an organ, a non vital organ.

Have you ever studied developmental biology? Really studied it?
From the moment of conception, the new life is totally and completely a unique genetic entity, not ‘merely a part of a woman’s body…’ It is a life separate from the woman, and yet totally dependent on her throughout its development.

While it is true that the new life is a separate living entity, and not merely a “part of the woman’s body”, it is also true that this new life has a relationship with the mother that is unique and irreplaceable (for a few months at least). That is, she is the only person in the world capable of sustaining that new life.

Society takes a somewhat contradictory attitude toward a woman and her pre-born infant. On one hand society adopts the attitude that the infant is “her responsibility” to raise, nurture, and support (along with the father). On the other hand society takes the attitude that the infant in the womb is under the protection of society at large. Actually this duality exists well beyond birth too. Children, up to the age of majority, are both “her responsibility” and “belonging to society” in the sense that society expresses an interest in the well-being of the child.

In a way, this duality is unavoidable. There is no good and reasonable alternative to having children cared for by their parents, despite the many dystopian novels that have been written about societies in which children are taken from their parents and raised by the state. (Isaac Asimov’s “Naked Sun” is a particularly chilling example in its description of Solarian society.)

However there may be a reasonable alternative to the assignment of total responsibility for the care of the infants (and children). For example, communally-funded pre-natal care, delivery, and recovery costs. If society “puts their money where their mouth is” it can more validly claim a right to extend legal protection over these new lives. If the woman is the only one who can save the child, and if society wants to insist that she do it, society ought to offer all the help it can to ensure that she can - especially in the case of rape or incest.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

There is plenty of prenatal care available to pregnant women without the means to afford it and any woman in labor can just show up at a hospital and be a Jane Doe and never pay a dime.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There is plenty of prenatal care available to pregnant women without the means to afford it and any woman in labor can just show up at a hospital and be a Jane Doe and never pay a dime.

“Without the means to afford it” is the kicker. What about a woman who could, maybe, just afford it, but is simply dissuaded from carrying the baby to term if it means becoming destitute first? Most of the women having abortions are not destitute. Therefore the kind of care you are describing would only address part of the problem.

What is so wrong with society assuming all the responsibility for funding pre-natal care - for rich as well as poor - in recognition of its vested interest in the safety of the child it has taken upon it self to protect? Is coercion and threat of criminal sanctions the only tool we have to make motherhood more desirable than abortion?