How justify abortion in case of rape or incest?

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LeafByNiggle said:
What is so wrong with society assuming all the responsibility for funding pre-natal care - for rich as well as poor
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Good topic for another thread for sure. So small a cost of investment, so great the return to give the next generation a good start.
 
The first set of commandments involve our relationship with G-d, whereas the second set involve our relationship with one another. Apparently G-d thought BOTH kind of commandments are important. Likewise, there are positive commandments and negative commandments, both of which are important.
 
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This is quite similar to Judaism, including differing positions within the religion.
 
Rape and incest only account for around 1.5% of all abortions annually in the US. So lets get the easy parts passed first. It can only be done incrementally.

In 1996, among rape victims who got pregnant:
32.2% opted to keep the infant whereas 50% underwent abortion and 5.9% placed the infant for adoption; an additional 11.8% had spontaneous abortion [i.e. miscarriage]
Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women - PubMed
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LeafByNiggle said:
What about a woman who could, maybe, just afford it, but is simply dissuaded from carrying the baby to term if it means becoming destitute first?
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Lots of that too from state and non-profit, have no fear.
 
MiserereMeiDei said:
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LeafByNiggle:
What about a woman who could, maybe, just afford it, but is simply dissuaded from carrying the baby to term if it means becoming destitute first?
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Lots of that too from state and non-profit, have no fear.
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Do you mean that no woman needs to pay for her pre-natal care out of her own pocket? I didn’t know it was that easy!
 
SalamKhan said:
Human soul exists in various degrees. In the fetus it starts at the level of vegetal soul having properties of nutrition & growth. Then it becomes animal soul with features of movement and perception. With intellectual maturity it becomes a rational soul. The human body-soul unit can be envisioned as a continuous spectrum on the one end of it is the physical body followed by vegetal soul, then animal soul and finally rational soul. The various faculties of human soul do not make soul a composite structure instead these faculties are actualized in the soul such that there is unity of soul’s attributes and its essence
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Actually, I had an SSPX-affiliated priest explain this to me, and to others in a study group, in much the same way — first a vegetal soul, then an animal soul, then a rational soul. Only when the rational soul is infused, does the fetus become a human person, the termination of whose life would be murder.

However, and this is a BIG “however”, we might hold this opinion, which is rooted in Aristotle and later Aquinas, but that is all it is — just an opinion, just a philosophical argument. What if it’s wrong? What if Almighty God does, in fact, infuse an immortal soul from the moment of conception, in spite of any fine arguments otherwise? As far as being a matter of moral certitude, we do not know, nor can we know. We know that an immortal soul is not in either the sperm or the egg. We know that the immortal soul exists at the point when a fetus could survive outside the womb, and for some time before that. As far as drawing a line, the only thing that makes sense is to assume that the immortal soul exists at conception — just as a hunter assumes that a noise in the distance could be a person and not a deer unless he or she knows otherwise.
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Many women are already insured and do not avail themselves of these services as they have no need and would likely be happier with their own physicians. Many women may be unaware. But yes, it is that easy.
 
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MiserereMeiDei said:
Many women are already insured and do not avail themselves of these services as they have no need and would likely be happier with their own physicians. Many women may be unaware. But yes, it is that easy.
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And delivery too? And if there are complications? All available for free to anyone, eh?
 
I already told you how to get delivery. And yes. The laws in the US require it.

In fact I can’t think of a single Western nation where they would make you have a baby on the sidewalk outside the hospital, but then, I remember stories of old people forced to eat cat food that never quite panned out either. Some people like to believe the most sensational nonsense.
 
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Jane doe doesn’t pay bills and she can’t be refused care.
 
She doesn’t remain Jane Doe for long if a birth certificate is to be issued after the birth.

These days, you can run but you can’t hide.
 
MiserereMeiDei said:
I already told you how to get delivery. And yes. The laws in the US require it.

In fact I can’t think of a single Western nation where they would make you have a baby on the sidewalk outside the hospital…
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You continue to ignore the fact that delivery services are not free unless the mother is destitute. I know they gave us a bill. This is a disincentive for some.
 
Would you please link me to these programs? I work every day with women in desparate need of these programs.

What is available as far as my years of experience:

Food Stamps (if your income is low, I have worked with the “working poor” who qualify for less than $10 per month in SNAP).

Earned Income Tax Credit (happens when you work).

WIC (this provides help with food)

Medicaid for pregnant women (again, based on income).

HUD housing (the wait list in my town is 3 years long)

She might be able to get the few child care slots that are open, but, first come first served fills up fast.

For the woman working a low paying job, she has no other recourse. Who is going to pay rent when she in her first weeks of post partum or if she has a pregnancy with complications? Who is going to pay the light bill (federal programs will help one bill per year). What about the water bill? What about car payment and insurance (if you live where there is not bus service).

These mythical “welfare checks” ended when AFDC ended in 1996.

Some states have programs, these are not in any way universal.
 
Actually, I can introduce you to women who could not afford to pay their co-pay ahead of time for delivery who were refused entrance to the local private hospital and had to travel 60 miles while in labor to a non-profit hospital.
 
And your future ability to rent an apartment or get a job will be demolished because of a bad credit rating.
 
My view of abortion is that it ought to be avoided, unless the woman’s life is at risk. Aside from that very specific situation, I am pro-life. I believe that it’s wrong to abort an unborn child, even if the mother is a victim of rape and/or incest. I believe that that fetus is a child and that it belongs to God. If it belongs to God, then He has the right to tell us what to do with it. It’s not just a clump of cells, as the pro-choicers will claim. I want to share a few scriptures:

Job 10:11 says “You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews.”

Psalm 139:13 says “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.”

Did you catch that? the writers of Job and Psalms both acknowledge that it is God who formed them together before they were born. They used the word “me” when describing themselves before birth. They didn’t say “you gave birth to a clump of cells” or “I became a creature at birth.”. No, it says that you [God] formed me, which means that it doesn’t matter at what stage the baby was at or how developed it was, God was causing them to undergo all the stages that a fetus goes through. God takes full credit for creating a baby; He has everything to do with it.
 
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