How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

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The effectiveness of the sacrifice is equally dependent on two criteria: 1) the purity of the priest who ministers, and 2) the purity of the blood being offered. Christ was Himself the perfect High Priest and the perfect sacrifice:

“For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.” (Hebrews 7:26)
“How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God…” (Hebrews 9:14)

Christ offered Himself (Heb 9:14, Heb 7:27, Eph 5:2)

Is the Catholic priest presumed to be sinless? If not, how can a priest offer a Mass sacrifice that is capable of removing sin? I argue that he can’t and Heb 7:13 seems to confirm that:

"For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar " (Hebrews 7:13)

Written by Paul 35+ years after Christ’s ascension.
Nothing you have provided has proved that the Eucharist was taught as being symbolic. Do yourself a favor, read EARLY CHURCH history ACCEPT the FACTS the early church NEVER taught a symbolic Eucharist.

You follow an NOVEL belief and it is a FACT!
 
Check your filters, Shawn…how you interpreted that(!)… the last image of Revelations is the Mass.
 
shawn,

I don’t know if you have studied Catholic theology, but may I suggest you do less asserting what the Catholic Church teaches and more asking what the Catholic Church teaches?

I think that will be more fruitful for all involved.

VC
 
Nothing you have provided has proved that the Eucharist was taught as being symbolic. Do yourself a favor, read EARLY CHURCH history ACCEPT the FACTS the early church NEVER taught a symbolic Eucharist.

You follow an NOVEL belief and it is a FACT!
This is case building. Obviously we don’t agree on the interpretation of the meaning of flesh, blood, and bread , whether literal or figurative, so we have to put everything into perspective.

As for the early church fathers, this drives me bonkers. People are so willing to dismiss the Bible as the authoritative word. Have we forgetten who the author is?
 
Exactly!
I sit in the pew and think “Wow that is a really good looking guy over there” “Is my skirt crooked?”:D:D :rolleyes: It happens! All those thoughts start crowding your mind and you don’t see the picture. Sometimes I have to imagine a little cartoon figure of me pushing this big pile of junk right out of the door (which would be my brain) and then focus on the Eucharist, the cross, the priest, or whatever is going on because I’m was to *distracted *to notice.
.
nice to hear a … uh… confession… 😃

actually the things i listed were the better “distractions”…

you wouldn’t belive some of the not so … mentionable ones I’ve had…

The devil even gets me @ Mass…:mad:😦 just not as … uh… thoroughly or whatever… and when he "gets me " There… i have Jesus and th angels and saints also There… to kick his… well, u know… 😃
 
No, the priest is not “transubstantiated.” As a passage from the part of the Catechism that you cited states:

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents.

We recognize through faith that the Christ is really and substantially present in the Eucharist because that reality is not visible. So the Eucharist does not “represent” Christ as a priest represents Christ.’

God Bless,
Michael
Catechism 1548 In the ecclesial service of the ordained minister, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church as Head of his Body, Shepherd of his flock, high priest of the redemptive sacrifice, Teacher of Truth. This is what the Church means by saying that the priest, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, acts in persona Christi:

It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).
Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.

Catechism 1549 Through the ordained ministry, especially that of bishops and priests, the presence of Christ as head of the Church is made visible in the midst of the community of believers…

*latin-mass-society.org/straub.htm *Ordination of a Roman Catholic Priest, then, means that his soul has become changed, and changed in such a way, that Jesus is able to use that Priest’s mouth, lips and tongue, utter His words. So that when a Priest is administering the Sacrament of Penance, and the words “I absolve thee from thy sins”, comes from his lips, it is really Jesus Who is saying these words, using the Priest’s mouth, lips and tongue to do so. Similarly, when, in the Mass, the words, “This is my Body”, and “This is my Blood”, come from the mouth of the Priest, it is really Jesus who is saying these words, using, not His Own mouth, lips and tongue, but those of the Priest. There is, then, only one Priesthood, that of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This Priesthood He exercises throughout Creation. He exercises it unceasingly in Heaven; for we are told, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, that He is “ever living to make intercession for us”.

Correct me if I’m wrong:
The belever see sthe presence of Christ who heads the church in the priest. (C. 1549).

Christ, through the physical body of the priest, conducts the mass and other sacraments.

This would think that this is more than representative because Christ, by changing the soul of the ordained priest or bishop, is conducting the mass.
 
This is case building. Obviously we don’t agree on the interpretation of the meaning of flesh, blood, and bread , whether literal or figurative, so we have to put everything into perspective.

As for the early church fathers, this drives me bonkers. People are so willing to dismiss the Bible as the authoritative word. Have we forgetten who the author is?
Exactly we do not agree and neither does the early church. The early church fathers drive you bonkers because you cannot accept the historical fact they ALL disagree with you. I find it so ironic that you are willing to accept a novel belief,but REJECT what the early pastors taught? Likewise, the church fathers lived much closer to the Apostles than any “Johnny-come-lately” church,no offense.

No one is denying the authoritative Word of God. Problem is you do not seem to comprehend that the theology of a literal Eucharist is based off Scripture. More important, what I find even more shocking is how so many have no problem accepting how Jesus is the Incarnation of God and that he resurrected from the dead. But you cannot BELIEVE God (Jesus) can give us His Body,Blood and Divinity in two simple elements in order to be closer to Him? There is no substitute than the Eucharist in regards to having a close relationship to Him.

That is pretty arrogant to me,placing limits on what God can do and not do.
 
Hi, Shawn38

Not quite, Shawn - I think you have drawn an invalid conclusion for the following reasons…
Where was Christ teaching and to whom explains the analogies.

Yes, Christ was in the synagogue in Capernaum - but, who was he teaching? Not the Capernaum crowd - but, rather the group that had eaten the loaves “…on the other side of the lake…” and wanted to be fed again. They failed to believe in Christ and were hunting for Him as a free meal ticket. (Jn6:22)

Where? Jn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
His Audience? Disciples that apparently some were scribes and pharisees for they were familiar with authority and questioning Christ’s authority.

Considering that the Scribes, Sadducees and Pharisees followed Christ everywhere so they could trap Him in some misstatement, having them in this crowd of 5,000 men should not really surprise anyone.

Why does Christ compare Himself to bred? The Jews were quite familiar with the 40 years in the desert for which they ate manna, bread from heaven. The bread and water given to the Jews in the desert was to humble them spiritually and sustain them physically through God’s miracles. Just of the Jews physically consumed the bread and water to sustain themselves physically, Christ is telling them that they are to consume the word of truth, the mystery of God.

And here is where you totally misread the Word of God, Shawn38: Let’s look at Jn6: 51
**
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If you eat this bread, you will live forever. The bread that I will give you is my flesh, which I give you so that the world may live.”**

Now, it seems like the only real group that seems to have an on-going problem with Christ’s words are the 16th century protestants and their followers. Note: those who listened to Christ’s words that day had NO TROUBLE understanding His clear meaning as seen in Jn6:52

"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked.

Now Christ comparing calling Himself the true bread was blasphemy to the scribes and pharisees. Christ knows that some do not and will not believe Him even if they were to see the Son of man ascend up where He was before.

Actually,Christ saying that God is His Father was the blasphemy (check out Jn6:36-40. When it came to eating His Flesh, the Jews probably thought He was crazy - and simply walked away from Him (check out Jn6:50)

Jn 6:53…Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jn 6:63…the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Not good enough, Shawn38,because, if this was some kind of ‘spiritual’ flesh(?) or a metaphor gone wild… they would not have complained about EATING HIS FLESH - Jn6:52.

Did you happen to notice the rich (although non-supportive to your argument) you omitted in the verses between Jn6:53-63. It is the carnal man that is being condemned - there are approximately 50 verses that Christ uses to build upon the idea of mana as a prototype of the Eucharist, announce that He is giving us His Flesh and comands us to eat if we are going to live - and you think he now voids this out by say the words He speaks are spirit? I do not think so.

But, please, don’t stop with John - go to Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians Ch 11:23-28. Paul has received a revelation from Christ about the Eucharist - the same Christ Who knocked Paul off his horse on the road to Damascus. Paul was not there at the Last Supper - so the fact that this private revelation totally coinsides with Jn 6 and the Last Supper accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke should cause one to think twice before saying it is a ‘symbol’ or a ‘metaphor’ or some kind of ‘spirit’. If this were true, look at how those who eat Christ’s Flesh in an unworthy manner are judged. have you ever heard of treating a metaphor in an unworthy manner? Check out the words.

**23
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
28
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. **

Put it together and you realize that Christ was not speaking of eating His physical body or even glorified body, but the word of God

] And, here is your invalid conclusion, Shawn38. Putting this together clearly identifies that Christ chose this way to make sure He would be with us: Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - under the appearance of the consecrated Bread and Wine. To deny this is to deny a lot.

God bless
 
Please Shawn,

Act in Good Faith…that means not using facts from the Catholic Church which you believe are falsehoods – and use them against the Church. You are obviously missing the truth…and just writing what I did makes me think you are acting like those terrorists…using the truth of our faith as a weapon against us…Eureka!

Anyway, it doesn’t work. You are not understanding the facts of the catechism in the first place…and you do believe in the Flying Bible without people. If you would only take the time to study ancient Church history…

That is the problem with fundamentalists …The Bible is the Word of God and the history of Salvation among people…but you take the people out and continue on with the Bible…you are missing its integration into us…the incarnation…the Word Made Flesh.

There is something going on here…The Church put the books of the Bible together. The Bible ends with Revelation…but this is the time of the beginning of Christianity, and this where the incarnation of Jesus Christ begins with His people throughout the world. And it comes through His Church through Tradition. The Word of God and Tradition (meaning how the Word of God is incarnated into given cultures) is intertwined with the Holy Spirit. You can’t have a stand alone Bible because then it is up for all sorts of interpretations.
 
Hi, Cinette,

Welcome back! 👍👍

Thank you - and, I hope I did not steal your ‘thunder’… 😃

Have a great day! 🙂

Tom
*Tom! I was preparing to answer brkn1 when I saw your posting. This is exactly the correct answer. It is so good. Thank you Tom and brkn1 I hope you will take the time to carefully read Tom’s response and contemplate it.

God love you all
Cinette:thumbsup:👍👍*
 
I disagree with the immaculate conception, but Mary was not concieved by the Holy Spirit, only protected from the affliction of original sin. She was still concieved naturally. If I’m wrong, correct me.
You are indeed correct; her immaculate conception made her the “perfect” tabernacle for our Lord!
 
sadly i think that ALL of us deny Jesus in the Eucharist… when we are… well, distracted…

When we take Communion sometimes we are thinking of everything but Jesus… or virtually everhting but Him anyhow… what we are going to do after mass, who we are goingto see after Mass… what team is going to win the ball game… is my hair combed properly… 😃 am i getting fat…? whats that so and so [world leader] doing today to tick me off… etc…
*When I pray for somebody I often think of that somebody and get distracted. I have thought of writing all my intentions on a piece of paper and then hold it in my hand during Mass and just pray for all the intentions contained therein.

Read John 15:4 and John 6:56 where Jesus says “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him” (paraphrasing) Jesus talks about abiding in Him in these two quotations. The other day this quotation came up during Mass and it said “…lives in me and I live in him” (Jerusalem translation). So now I try to meditate on that. Jesus abides/lives in me and I in Him… I am like a tabernacle… I love you Jesus, you are my life. I often say “My Lord and my God, my Jesus, my Saviour”…over and over.

Jesus made us - He knows our humanness - He understands. When we struggle to overcome our distractions he knows that.

For some years each time I heard “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on me…” tears would come into my eyes. It happened on several occasions when I was distracted and everybody was praying “Lamb of God…” tears would come into my eyes and jerk me back to the moment.

I pray for more Faith. As I come into the Church my heart begins to swell when I think of the presence of Jesus in the tabernacle. The beauty of the Church adds to the images I conjure in my mind of heaven…

God love us all
Cinette:)*
 
Hi, Cinette,

Welcome back! 👍👍

Thank you - and, I hope I did not steal your ‘thunder’… 😃

Have a great day! 🙂

Tom
*Thank goodness you got in before me because I could never have explained it so well.

Thank you Tom
Cinette*
 
Instead of focusing on whether the Church Fathers believed in the Real Presence per se, I want to focus on whether any of the early Church Fathers believed John 6 was a reference to the Eucharist. Why? Because many Protestants who deny the Real Presence also deny that this passage is about the Eucharist. And yet there is no other passage in Scripture outside of John 6 that talks about eating the Body and Blood of Christ without it being a reference to the Eucharist:

1 Corinthians 10:16

**16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? **

So if every reference in the New Testament to the eating of the Body and drinking of the Blood of Christ outside of John 6 is a reference to the Eucharist, how is it that suddenly the eating of the Body and drinking of the Blood of Christ in John 6 is not about the Eucharist? The natural reading of the text is that Christ is referring to the Eucharist. So did any of the early Church Fathers perceive this reference to the Eucharist in John 6? Yes!

Saint Ignatius of Antioch (died A.D 117), one of the earliest Church fathers who may have been a student of Saint John the Apostle wrote in his letter to the Ephesians:

**Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. **

…breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ.

All of the highligted is a clear reference to John 6:33,50, 54-56. He also wrote in his letter to the Romans:

**I desire the Bread of God, the heavenly Bread, the Bread of Life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; I wish the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life. **

All of this clearly indicates that Saint Ignatius of Antioch, who actually lived through the end of the Apostolic Age and was alive when the Gospel of John was written, interpreted John 6 as a reference to the Eucharist.

We also have Saint Irenaeus who wrote in his Against Heresies circa 180 AD:

**We offer him what is his, and so we proclaim communion and unity and profess our belief in the resurrection of flesh and spirit. Just as bread from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread but the Eucharist, made up of two elements, one earthly and one heavenly, so also our bodies, in receiving the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, for they have the hope of resurrection. **

Again, the highlighted is a clear reference to John 6:54-55.

Another early Church Father, Saint Cyprian of Carthage wrote the following in The Lord’s Prayer circa 252 AD:

**As the prayer proceeds, we ask and say: ‘Give us this day our daily bread.’ This can be understood both spiritually and simply, because either understanding is of profit in divine usefulness for salvation. For Christ is the bread of life and the bread here is of all, but is ours. And as we say ‘Our Father,’ because He is the Father of those who understand and believe, so too we say ‘our Bread,’ because Christ is the bread of those of us who attain to His body. Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: ‘I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.’ Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: ‘Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.’ And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body. **

Again, St. Cyprian of Carthage interprets John 6 as a clear reference to the Eucharist. In another post I cited St Augustine, who also clearly interpreted John 6 as a reference to the Eucharist.

So here we see that the early Church Fathers chronologically closest to the Apostolic Age and the year the Gospel of John was actually written intepreted John 6 as a reference to the Eucharist. And hence the Eucharistic interpretation of John 6 is not only the one that makes the most biblical sense… since the Bible always uses the eating of the Body and drinking of the Blood of Christ as a reference to the Eucharist… but also it is the historic Christian understanding of the text.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Instead of focusing on whether the Church Fathers believed in the Real Presence per se, I want to focus on whether any of the early Church Fathers believed John 6 was a reference to the Eucharist. Why? Because many Protestants who deny the Real Presence also deny that this passage is about the Eucharist…
No one here has denied this.
🤷

Of course John 6 is a reference to the Eucharist.
 
No one here has denied this.
🤷

Of course John 6 is a reference to the Eucharist.
You clearly see it a reference to the Eucharist and I do too. But it has been argued in this thread that it is not a reference to the Eucharist. May God richly bless you! 🙂

In Christ,
Michael
 
You clearly see it a reference to the Eucharist and I do too. But it has been argued in this thread that it is not a reference to the Eucharist. May God richly bless you! 🙂

In Christ,
Michael
You did a fine job, Michael. I am not convinced that John 6 is an argument for the real presence. Post-institution, it has those implications. However, the actual institution passages and 1 Corinthians are undeniable.
 
And hence the Eucharistic interpretation of John 6 is not only the one that makes the most biblical sense… since the Bible always uses the eating of the Body and drinking of the Blood of Christ as a reference to the Eucharist… but also it is the historic Christian understanding of the text.

God Bless,
Michael
Correction:

Not only does the Eucharistic intepretation make the most biblical sense … since the NT consistently uses the eating of the Body and drinking of the Blood of Christ as a reference to the Eucharist… but it is also the historic Christian understanding of the text.

God Bless,
Michael
 
You did a fine job, Michael. I am not convinced that John 6 is an argument for the real presence. Post-institution, it has those implications. However, the actual institution passages and 1 Corinthians are undeniable.
Thanks TriuneUnity! I agree with you regarding the actual institution passages and 1 Corinthians. They are undeniable. However, I do believe Jesus is talking about the Eucharist here, as did most of the early Church Fathers, and I believe it is one of the strongest passages in Scripture that teaches the Real Presence. I want to write more on this subject, but this week will be quite hectic for me! :hypno:

God Bless,
Michael
 
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