V
Verbum_Caro
Guest
Esdra, Grüß Gott,
The First Apology of St. Justin contains a description remarkably similar to Catholic worship, and that was written around 150 A.D. That seems fairly early.
Have you read that before?
VC
- Status
The First Apology of St. Justin contains a description remarkably similar to Catholic worship, and that was written around 150 A.D. That seems fairly early.
Have you read that before?
VC
P
PRmerger
Guest
In a way, yes. It tells me that you really did not know the Catholic faith that you left.
The Scriptures are EVERYWHERE in the Mass, as Cinette said.
It’s there when we (priest or congregation) say:
-In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)
-May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)
-Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. (Luke 2:14)
- Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13)
etc etc etc. These are just a few examples. But practically every word uttered in the Mass comes from Scripture!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, wasn’t the point of this exercise for you to do this without looking anything up? You wanted to know how much of Catholicism you actually learned and remembered, right?
No, Esda. That is NOT what the CC teaches is the Immaculate Conception. It has nothing to do with sex.
The IC is the doctrine that Mary, from the very first moment of her conception, was free from sin. That is, when she was a teeny tiny life insider *her *mother’s womb (St. Anne, according to Catholic tradition), she was already free from original sin, and never sinned in the future.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Yes, that is true. And I must say that I am very happy that protestants love the Lord and follow the Lord (more some than some Catholics as a matter of fact).
But this big tent you are proposing is for the Church to drop some of its teachings. That Big Tent which is the Catholic Church is always open to welcome those who want to come home. But one does not come home demanding a change in the rule as a prerequisite for come coming home. One simply comes home and accepts the rules in that household. Come home only when you can accept her teaching. Her teachings come from Christ.
That is all good. But it still is not enough. To me it sounds like this.
You have this big family where somewhere along the line, there was a falling out of sorts and some members decided to leave home. This family feud lasted for a long time and the later generations decided “well how about we try to patch it up”. So every now and again they would meet at a cafe, have a meal and chat.
Now that is all very nice but that still falls short of the family gathering where all live in the same household once again.
And I really do appreciate that much more so than before since I have been talking to Catholics who are not Christian at all in their belief. To them, Christ is just another guru. So when I see how passionate the protestants are about Jesus, I am really very touched.
Some Catholics seem to have completely missed the point that the gospel is not about feeding the poor, working for freedom and justice. The gospel is the person of Jesus Christ and everything else proceeds from that. When I say that, I think it is more my protestant friends who will understand that than some of my Catholic acquaintances.
E
Esdra
Guest
When I said I looked up what IC means I didn’t mean I looked it up in wikipedia, but in my Englisch-German Dictionary. I looked up only the word Ic what it means in GERMAN. As I didn’t know the vocabulary IC. Hey, English is a foreign language for me!
I never learned Catholic terminology in English!!I think I stated my answer wrong: When you cross the part about sex it sounds like this:
Best wishes,
Esdra
PS: I already answered 10 questions about the Catholic faith from Cinnite via PM. She will answer me tomorrow for today she doesn’t have any time.
I answered 9 of those 10 btw. and I guess they are correct!
E
Esdra
Guest
Hi
I think it is really nice that we can agree at at least some points of the Eucumenical idea.
As I said before - that all will come back to the RCC and that the RCC will be the only christianity will never work. But as I have stated very well in my last post to you above, I think it is a nice idea to have the Eucumene, this Big Tent. And I would really appreciate that if we could itensify that. (so not only between the Lutherans and the RCC but also between the RCC and other denominations, as long as they (the RCC and the other denominations respective) are willing to.
Actually you’re parable with the family also depends upon “how old the family members” are. If they are old enough to live alone, why should they come back again to the same household? It is okay to just meet for coffee or to visit each other. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
For me this is the eucumenical idea: Not going back to the household, but visiting each other sort of… and spending time together with our friend and Lord Jesus Christ and our Father in heaven.
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
Just wanted to add something to that: We are not talking about Non Christians here - this is a completely other category!
We are talking about Christians. And we ARE Christians, no mather wether Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestant in General or Catholic or Baptist etc…, right?
esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
Well, I never thought about that, that all those sentences, repeated every mass are from the Bible! I also didn’t knew it.
Anyway - mass has always been boring for me. It was always the SAME - except Gospel, lesson and preach…
As I was forced to go to mass for a long time by my parents it was even more boring…
And yes, now I can answer your previously asked Question: I was never relly catechised…
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
R
Roy5
Guest
Cinette
Code:
You could be correct. However, the figures I have seen indicate that Protestant pentecostalists of various kinds worldwide claims 450,000,000, while Catholic charismatics claims 120,000,000. The large majority are in Latin America and Africa, though a few nations in Asia (e. g., South Korea) have many, too. The largest local congregation in the world is a Pentecostal Church in Seoul which claims a membership of 750,000 - one congregation!
I also have read that, for example, in Brazil, the largest Catholic nation in the world, more Protestants attend church each weekend than Catholics. Why? Because of the rapid increase of Pentecostalists (e. g., Assemblies of God) who faithfully get to worship each Lord's Day. At one point the Assemblies of God reported that it was opening an average four new churches in Latin America every day!
It would be interesting to know what the authentic figures are re Catholic and Protestant charismatics. In this area Catholic charismatic groups have seriously dwindled since their heyday in the 70s. But perhaps this is not the case elsewhere. Is there a good source online with reliable and current figures?
Now as to this thread, Catholic charismatics, of course, would believe in the real presence. Protestant pentecostalists would emphasize the real presence of Christ during worship ("lo, I am with you always") but not especially in the Eucharist. They would not accept the doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the substance, the bread and wine, undergo a substantive charge once it is consecrated.
God bless Catholics, Protestants and all his children, what their creed, color or country.
P
PRmerger
Guest
I can see how it would be boring if you didn’t understand.
Well!! Dear Esdra,* you are the very first ex-Catholic *that’s ever admitted that to me on the CAFs–and I’ve been on here a long time and had many many conversations with ex-Catholics.
So I applaud you for being honest and acknowledging that you were not well catechized.:tiphat:
What you left, you never really knew.
It is quite frustrating to me to be told by a Protestant, “Well, I was a Catholic, and I went to Mass every day and I was educated by nuns and blah blah blah” only to find out they really really have no idea what Catholicism is.
P
PRmerger
Guest
No. It has nothing to do with Holy Mother Mary bearing Jesus. (At least, not directly)
The Immaculate Conception has to do with Mary’s conception. Mary, as a teen, tiny little person in her mother’s womb, was already sinless. So when God created Mary, even from the very first moments of her life, she bore no effects of sin, had no stain of sin on her immortal soul.
Too many people think that the CC thinks of sex as “dirty”, which is why we would call Mary’s conception of Jesus the “Immaculate” (meaning the exact opposite of dirty) Conception. HOWEVER, since the CC does not think of sex as dirty, but holy, it would NOT call Mary’s conceiving of Jesus in her womb “Immaculate”.
I hope I am being clear and that the language barrier is not working against us.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Rev Kevin,sorry I have not replied or read your answers. Okay, I do owe you an apology. Honestly, I am not trying to insult or degrade your faith or belief in Christ. So again,my apologies for being rude.
What is my view on non-Catholics? Some I believe are good and sincere followers of Christ,but others due seem to spend more time attacking the RCC,than following God. At times it seems there hatred for the RCC is stronger than their love for God.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
AcceptedRev Kevin,sorry I have not replied or read your answers. Okay, I do owe you an apology. Honestly, I am not trying to insult or degrade your faith or belief in Christ. So again,my apologies for being rude.
What is my view on non-Catholics? Some I believe are good and sincere followers of Christ,but others due seem to spend more time attacking the RCC,than following God. At times it seems there hatred for the RCC is stronger than their love for God.
Now believe it our not I have to agree with you on this.There are those who spend more time attacking the RCC than following God. I hope I don’t appear to be one of those because I’m not. I do have respect for the RCC but disagree with some of the teachings.
But on the other hand to be fair, there are Catholics who do the same thing to Non-Catholics. I have noticed it here on the CAF that it goes both ways.
C
Cinette
Guest
*We are often influenced by the secular world and the New Age concepts which are thrown about. Without realising it we sometimes make statements that are really new age stuff. Then there is the relativism which is a great danger. Our Holy Father has often spoken about these dangers. Many Catholics don’t realise what they are saying sometimes.
Conversion is ongoing - we must continue to convert ourselves all the time. We need to follow the Magisterium and understand and obey what it teaches us.
I am so thankful for the Catholic Church.
I agree with you Benedictus that many Protestants are faithful lovers of Jesus in a very deep way. It is a pity they have been watered down since Luther. I mean Luther believed in the Real Presence. What about Mary being the Mother of God. Protestants deny this yet Luther, Zwingli and Calvin all believed Mary to be the Mother of God. As the Protestant churches split into many denominations many teachings were abandoned and this is what we have today. Luther was right to criticise many things that were going on in the Church but it was not necessary to leave - that was his great big mistake - and then he himself deteriorated. To this day the Church has to put out fires all the time againse heresay and abuse.
I don’t know exactly where to find this in his writings but my husband told me that Luther said that you could commit adultery/fornication many times over and still be saved!!
Being a faithful Catholic Christian is very demanding but very fulfilling.
God love all
Cinette
*
C
Cinette
Guest
*Oh Esdra you will regret saying this one day! When you wake up!
I am going to Mass in a few minutes from now. As I walk into the Chapel my heart will glow as I make the sign of the cross and look at the crucifix above the altar - I will tell Jesus I love Him so much and that I am so pleased to be there. I will thank Him for bring me to his table.
Then after the Entrance Antithon I will listen to the prayers at the beginning of Mass and Father will make a little comment about the theme of the Gospel. Then we will all hear the first reading which will be from Acts followed by the Psalm - Is that boring??
Then there will be the gospel followed by a short comment by the priest (it is the daily Mass so it is short) Is that boring?
Then we will have the Holy Holy Holy followed by the consecration - is that boring?
Then we will say the Our Father and the priest will say the prayer of peace and we will give peace to each other - is that boring?
Then we will receive the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ - I will prayer in my heart “My Lord and My God - my Jesus, my saviour” over and over. Is that boring?
Then the priest will give us the blessing and tell us to go forth to love and serve the Lord - is that boring???
I must rush now because I don’t want to be late for my appointment with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
God love you all
Cinette
*
C
Cinette
Guest
*I attended a Catholic Charismatic Group and did about 10 LIS and several Healing Seminars. I have been marked for life by the experience - it has given me a thirst and hunger for learning more about my Faith. I highly recommend it.
I have always separated the Mass from Praise and Worship gatherings - there is a marked difference. One could be a Catholic who attends daily Mass (as does the lady here who started the Group 37 years ago - they meet every Tuesday) and then go to the Chrismatic gatherings. So a person could be a Pentecostal and a Catholic at the same time really.
As for figures I have read somewhere that the Catholic Charismatics is the larges group in the world - yes I can believe that the numbers fall because they have fulfilled their role. I would describe the Renewal is getting to know the Holy Spirit and His role and power in our lives. I carry that will be always.
I am not a Charismatic in that I do now have the manifeststions but I love them to bits and would encourage any body to go to a Catholic Charismatic Group and do some LIS as well attend Healing Seminars - they are precious.
God love you all
Cinette
*
C
Cinette
Guest
*By the way Roy - in regard to the Brazillians I can understand that unCathechised people will flock to the Pentecostals (many then return to the CC) because they like the mode of worship - chapping, dancing and falling about.
I speak Portuguese and have visited Brazil and I know their culture and personalities. There is also a lot of poverty and suffering.
Blessings
Cinette*
I speak Portuguese and have visited Brazil and I know their culture and personalities. There is also a lot of poverty and suffering.
Blessings
Cinette
*
B
benedictus2
Guest
My example of the family living on one house is a rather weak analogy. More like all the family members believe the same thing. Something like, some members refuse to come back because they believed the father was a tyrant and the other members saying you’ve got it wrong. And the ones who left are saying, we won’t make up with you until you admit that father was a tyrant.
Also, if the founder (Jesus Christ) intended for there to be only family, then it is not good that the family is fractured.
I cannot remember exactly the way St Augustine phrased this but he said something like: So the Body of Christ is bleeding and covered with sores, but it does not need to be hacked into pieces.
Christ prayed for unity of His church just before He died. He knew that there will be division which is why He prayed that we will be one. And so long as we worship at different Altars and dine at different tables, then we are not one. Still, it is good to share what little we do have.
B
benedictus2
Guest
The reason for my example about Pagans is this.
You regard that your faith is superior to the non-christian belief. If the non-christian religions were to say to you if you drop doctrine abc and xyz from your belief then perhaps we can be untied, would you do it?
Or even take the protestant umbrella on its, own. Why is it that Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc are all separated? Isn’t it because each one thinks that their set of beliefs is the correct belief? Otherwise, there would just be on protestant religion. But the fact that there are over 30,000 denomations is because no one wants to budge. No one wants to drop this or that doctrine to accomodate the other.
And yet this is precisely what you are asking the Catholic Church to do.
But we Catholics believe we have the fullness of truth. So put yourself in our place. If you believe that you have the fullness of truth, would you eschew some of these truths thereby ending up with less than the fullness of truth, just so you can woe people to come in? Wouldn’t that be compromising the integrity of your faith?
I am reminded of what Jesus said to the jews who told Him that Moses had allowed divorce. It is because of the hardness of their heart that Moses relented. And Jesus said, hardness of heart or not divorce is out. He was not going to buckle under their pressure.
Samething, with the subject at hand. When His disciples started to leave after His bread of life discourse, all he had to do was tone down and take back what he said. But He did not do that. He allowed them instead to leave.
And that is what the Church does. If you are not happy with this truth, then it is up to you to leave. No one is restraining you. It is hoped though that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, one will come to the realization that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church that Christ founded on earth.
The doctrine on the Real Presence was divisive from the beginning. If they disputed that when He was still with them, then it is no surprise that they dispute it now.
- Status