How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

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I also have read that, for example, in Brazil, the largest Catholic nation in the world, more Protestants attend church each weekend than Catholics. Why? Because of the rapid increase of Pentecostalists (e. g., Assemblies of God) who faithfully get to worship each Lord’s Day. At one point the Assemblies of God reported that it was opening an average four new churches in Latin America every day!
And that is indeed a sad fact. After Vatican II so many priests and religious who should have given proper education to the young failed miserably in their duties. So many under catechized Catholics. It is no wonder that they are easy pickings for the other evangelical groups.

I belong to a church group where more of the members know very little about what we Catholics believe.

I have noticed this too in a lot of priests and nuns of a certain age. But I think that trend is starting to reverse as we get better formed priests and religious educators.

There is nothing wrong with the message but quite a lot to be desired in the messengers.
 
I cannot remember exactly the way St Augustine phrased this but he said something like: So the Body of Christ is bleeding and covered with sores, but it does not need to be hacked into pieces.
LOVE this! I’m going to add it to my “list of favorite apologetic quotes”.

👍
 
*We are often influenced by the secular world and the New Age concepts which are thrown about. Without realising it we sometimes make statements that are really new age stuff. Then there is the relativism which is a great danger. Our Holy Father has often spoken about these dangers. Many Catholics don’t realise what they are saying sometimes.

Conversion is ongoing - we must continue to convert ourselves all the time. We need to follow the Magisterium and understand and obey what it teaches us.

I am so thankful for the Catholic Church.

I agree with you Benedictus that many Protestants are faithful lovers of Jesus in a very deep way. It is a pity they have been watered down since Luther. I mean Luther believed in the Real Presence. What about Mary being the Mother of God. Protestants deny this yet Luther, Zwingli and Calvin all believed Mary to be the Mother of God. As the Protestant churches split into many denominations many teachings were abandoned and this is what we have today. Luther was right to criticise many things that were going on in the Church but it was not necessary to leave - that was his great big mistake - and then he himself deteriorated. To this day the Church has to put out fires all the time againse heresay and abuse.

I don’t know exactly where to find this in his writings but my husband told me that Luther said that you could commit adultery/fornication many times over and still be saved!!

Being a faithful Catholic Christian is very demanding but very fulfilling.

God love all
Cinette:)
*
Yes, relativism I think is the root of all evil in this world today. With relativism, the self reigns supreme.

And the sad thing is you can sort of trace it to Luther for his teaching that everyone can interpret the Bible themselves which I think paved the way for modernist thinking. What most people don’t know is that Luther and Calvin both realized the error in this and said as much.

Yes, Luther did say that about adultery. Smacks very much of OSAS.
 
Well, I never thought about that, that all those sentences, repeated every mass are from the Bible! I also didn’t knew it.
Anyway - mass has always been boring for me. It was always the SAME - except Gospel, lesson and preach….
Do you think that the worship of God should be about you? Staged for your own benefit and entertainment ? Shouldn’t God’s worship be about God whether we are entertained or not?

I mean if entertainment is all we need there is alway the TV, movies, bars, etc.
 
BUT, one question: How do you know that the Ancient Christians celebrated their service not like the Baptists, or Protestants in general, do, but like the Catholics (or like the various Orthodox Churches.)? Esdra
Esdra, here’s an interesting quote from an early Christian describing how they worshipped. When you read it, tell me if you think it sounds more like a Catholic Mass or a Baptist service.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, **is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. **For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. .

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the DAY CALLED SUNDAY, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place (Church), and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read (Epistles and Gospel readings in Church), as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things (Sermon). Then we all rise together and pray (Liturgy), and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and WINE AND WATER are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability (Priestly prayer of Holy Eucharist), and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each (Holy Communion), and a participation of that over which thanks have been given (Consecrated Host), and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. St. Justin Martyr, circa 150 AD (bold mine) Source here.
 
Every year after lent I am taught something very important. This time for some reason I could not get my mind off of the Eucharist.

John 6:66 (the devils numbers) That blows my mind.

Did anyone ever really make that connection. That is the scripture where the disciples that could not accept the true teaching that Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the living Christ left Jesus and walked away.

Judas comes to mind. It was Judas that was one of his Apostles and left Jesus. Did you notice when he left him. At the Eucharist!!! Judas could not accept that teaching.

As a kid me and my brother when we were first beginning to drive would go to Church and split right after communion. My Dad would always say are you like Judas are you going to leave right after the Eucharist:confused:

I never really understood until years later what he was saying. Trust me I stay now!!:o

Jesus was quite clear when he stated For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. John 6:53-56)

Even the disciples said this is a hard saying who can listen to it? See Jesus knew some would not believe. This is where Judas fell away. John 6:64.

Many say he was speaking sybolically. But he wasn’t. If so both the Jews who were suspicious of him and the disciples who accepted everything up to this point would have remained with him if he were.

But he did not correct the protesters.

Thank You for a very good post.{ A+++
from heaven.

4 times he said he said they would have to eat my flesh and drink my blood.

Who can really accept this teaching? Can you?

We as Roman Catholic’s are not just symbolically commemorating Jesus in the Eucharist we are actually participating in his body and blood as Paul tells us.

The cup of blessing which we bless, IS IT NOT a participation in the blood of Christ. The bread which we bread, IS IT NOT a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)

Jesus said DO THIS in memory of me!! Do This!!!/QUO
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]

You lost me here shawn. What does Matt 29 have to do with you denying Christ as the living bread.

In 26-29 Jesus is saying that although his death will interrupt the table fellowship he has had with his disciples. Jesus CONFIDENTLY PREDICTS his VINDICATION by GOD and a new table fellowship with them at the banquet of the kingdom.🤷
In OT scripture, wine was symbolic of blood.

Yes, Jesus is saying this. However it was not until just before the ascension that the apostles fully understood the (OT) scriptures.

Lk 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem… 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
 
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Nicea325:
Shawn,

You are merely chopping and dicing specific canons. You have to read the entire thing,not just pick and choose what looks useful for your agenda.

Nicea,

Apparently you did not understand that I was agreeing with you in relation to the term “eucharist” being used in canon in 1215 ad. The term is not articulated at all. Only the handling of it is mentioned.
 
This is where your profound misunderstanding lies. Shawn, it is not a question if God was involved in the canon of scripture;moreover, it is not a question of WHO,but HOW he did it. And how? Through CATHOLIC BISHOPS…a fact of history Shawn.
I don’t think anyone disputes the assembling of the canon. But what were the key points as to what to accept?

One was that the letters were read aloud in weekly assemblies.

The letters were already being read within the churches before the canon was assembled.
Did not God use humans as His instruments to write scripture? Did he not inspire them? Now explain to me why why he cannot do same for the canon of scripture?
If they are so inspired, why not add them to the Catholic Bible versions?
 
In OT scripture, wine was symbolic of blood.

Yes, Jesus is saying this. However it was not until just before the ascension that the apostles fully understood the (OT) scriptures.

Lk 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem… 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
:confused: Sorry shawn I am still not making the connection. How does this scripture deny that the Eucharist is indeed the Body and Blood of Christ???
 
:confused: Sorry shawn I am still not making the connection. How does this scripture deny that the Eucharist is indeed the Body and Blood of Christ???
Sorry for stepping in at this late point in the discussion, but I too am missing the connection.🤷
 
Shawn,

What was used was that which the Holy Spirit guided, that would define the universal faith of all believers.
 
Transubstantiantion was OFFICIALLY defined as a dogma by Pope Innocent III at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 A.D.
Which constitution does Transubstantiation fall under? A quarry reveals no “transubstantiation”. “Eucharist” can be found under constitutions 21 and 22, but neither deal with “transubstantian.”
  1. Chrism and the Eucharist to be kept under lock and key
  2. On yearly confession to one’s own priest, yearly communion, the confessional seal
Here’s the 71 constitutions to help you.

Confession of Faith
On the error of abbot Joachim
On Heretics
On the pride of the Greeks towards the Latins
The dignity of the patriarchal sees
On yearly provincial councils
The correction of offences and the reform of morals
On inquests
On different rites within the same faith
On appointing preachers
On schoolmasters for the poor
On general chapters of monks
A prohibition against new religious orders
Clerical incontinence
Clerical gluttony and drunkeness
Decorum in the dress and behaviour of clerics
Dissolute prelates
Clerics to dissociate from shedding-blood
That profane objects may not be stored in churches
Chrism and the Eucharist to be kept under lock and key
On yearly confession to one’s own priest, yearly communion, the confessional seal
Physicians of the body to advise patients to call physicians of the soul
Churches are to be without a prelate for no more than 3 months
Democratic election of pastors
Invalid elections
Nominees for prelatures to be carefully screened
Candidates for the priesthood to be carefully trained and scrutinized
Who asks to resign must resign
Multiple benefices require papal dispensation
Penalties for bestowing ecclesiatical benefices on the unworthy
Canons’ sons cannot be canons where their fathers are
Parish priests to have adequate incomes
Renumeration for visitations to be reasonable
Prelates forbidden to procure ecclesiastical services at a profit
On appeal procedures
On interlocutory sentences
On Summons by Apostolic Letter
Written records of trials to be kept
On knowingly receiving stolen goods
True owner is the true possessor even if not possessing the object for a year
No one is to knowingly prescribe an object to the wrong party
Clerics and laity are not to usurp each others rights
Clerics cannot be forced to take oaths of fealty to those from whom they hold no temporalities
Only clerics may dispose of church property
Penalties for patrons who steal church goods or physically harm their clerics
Taxes cannot be levied on the Church, but the Church can volunteer contributions for the common good
On unjust excommunication
Challenging an ecclesiastical judge
Penalties for excommunication out of avarice
Prohibition of marriage is now perpetually restricted to the fourth degree
Clandestine marriages forbidden
On rejecting evidence from hearsay at a matrimonial suit
On those who give their fields to others to be cultivated so as to avoid tithes
Tithes should be paid before taxes
Tithes are to be paid on lands acquired, notwithstanding privileges
A parish priest shall not lose a tithe on account of some people making a pact
Interpreting the words of privileges
On the same in favour of bishops
Religious cannot give surety without permission of his abbot and convent
Abbots not to encroach on episcopal office
Religious may not receive tithes from lay hands
Regarding saint’s relics
On simony
Simony with regards to monks and nuns
Simony and extortion
Simony and avarice in clerics
Jews and excessive Usury
Jews appearing in public
Jews not to hold public offices
Jewish converts may not retain their old rite
Crusade to recover the holy Land

Thanks,
 
Sorry for stepping in at this late point in the discussion, but I too am missing the connection.🤷
🤷 Never figured it out. THis is the scripture that he gave me? Some how I guess he thinks this scripture is proof that Jesus Christ is not the living bread. Thats why I said I can’t see the connection. Never did:shrug:
 
St Hilary (c.4th century) In the scriptures our people are shown to be made one, so that just as many grains collected into one and ground and mingled together, make one loaf so in Christ who is the Heavely Bread we know there is one holy, in which our whole company is joined and untied. (Treatise 62,13)
 
The reason for my example about Pagans is this.

You regard that your faith is superior to the non-christian belief. If the non-christian religions were to say to you if you drop doctrine abc and xyz from your belief then perhaps we can be untied, would you do it?

Or even take the protestant umbrella on its, own. Why is it that Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc are all separated? Isn’t it because each one thinks that their set of beliefs is the correct belief? Otherwise, there would just be on protestant religion. But the fact that there are over 30,000 denomations is because no one wants to budge. No one wants to drop this or that doctrine to accomodate the other.

And yet this is precisely what you are asking the Catholic Church to do.

But we Catholics believe we have the fullness of truth. So put yourself in our place. If you believe that you have the fullness of truth, would you eschew some of these truths thereby ending up with less than the fullness of truth, just so you can woe people to come in? Wouldn’t that be compromising the integrity of your faith?

I am reminded of what Jesus said to the jews who told Him that Moses had allowed divorce. It is because of the hardness of their heart that Moses relented. And Jesus said, hardness of heart or not divorce is out. He was not going to buckle under their pressure.

Samething, with the subject at hand. When His disciples started to leave after His bread of life discourse, all he had to do was tone down and take back what he said. But He did not do that. He allowed them instead to leave.

And that is what the Church does. If you are not happy with this truth, then it is up to you to leave. No one is restraining you. It is hoped though that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, one will come to the realization that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church that Christ founded on earth.

The doctrine on the Real Presence was divisive from the beginning. If they disputed that when He was still with them, then it is no surprise that they dispute it now.
Ah but you have to remember, how many of us do not dispute it!!😃 How many of us accept these words of Jesus as many did except them then also. Remember Many walked away but not ALL!!😃
 
Well, I never thought about that, that all those sentences, repeated every mass are from the Bible! I also didn’t knew it.
Anyway - mass has always been boring for me. It was always the SAME - except Gospel, lesson and preach…

As I was forced to go to mass for a long time by my parents it was even more boring…

And yes, now I can answer your previously asked Question: I was never relly catechised…

Esdra
My friend Esdra, may the Peace of the Lord be with you. You are not alone in this situation; many Catholics that I know do not know their faith. They attend the Mass because it is consider “an obligation” to attend, not having a deep understanding of what is taking place during this celebration of worship. My wife despise NFL games because she does not understand the sport, therefore, she cannot appreciate and live the excitment of what is taking place. Same analogy applies to the Sacred Liturgy, which we call “The Mass.”

In Deuteronomy 6:4-9 the "Great Commandment is described, "Here, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone! Therefore, you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength! Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. DRILL THEM INTO YOUR CHILDREN. SPEAK OF THEM AT HOME AND ABROAD, WHETHER YOU ARE BUSY OR AT REST. BIND THEM AT YOUR WRIST AS A SIGN AND LET THEM BE AS A PENDANT ON YOUR FOREHEAD. WRITE THEM ON THE DOORPOSTS OF YOUR HOUSES AND ON YOUR GATES." The action of cathechism is primarily a responsibility of the parents. When children are baptized the parents “make a commitment” to God and to the church to “raise” them according to the teachings of the church; but you cannot give what you don’t have. My parents raised me within the faith but they did not have a deep knowledge of the faith
Anyway - mass has always been boring for me. It was always the SAME - except Gospel, lesson and preach…
I was raised in a land where more than 85% of the population are Catholic. As a Catholic, I hardly ever had challenges from non-Catholics. This reality changed when I came to the USA. The majority of my co-workers were non-Catholic and I faced the daily challenges to defend my faith. Solution: it was time to educate myself and learn abouth my faith. I bought books and began to read the Holy Scriptures, History of Christianity, writings of the Early Church Fathers, and apologetics, This process allowed me to solidify the foundation given to me by my earthly parents. My love for my church reached new horizons and my understanding of the history, traditions, and richness of the Mass gave me a new perspective; the Mass was never the same. Like my good friend mentioned in one of the previous posts, the Mass is founded on the Holy Scripture, and I add, “Judeo-Christian traditions.”

You left the Catholic Church without knowing your faith. With a great sense of Love I advise you to do what I did: search for the truth, read and expand the horizon of your knowledge and in this process you will "discover the greatness of the “Catholic Faith.” You cannot love and appreciate what you don’t understand:blessyou:.
 
Nicea,

Apparently you did not understand that I was agreeing with you in relation to the term “eucharist” being used in canon in 1215 ad. The term is not articulated at all. Only the handling of it is mentioned.
Exactly! As I stated,the Trinity was not fully articulated until 325 A.D.,but that does not mean it was not in existance or that it was ‘invented’ as many believe,especially Jehovah Witnesses.
 
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