How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[PRmerger]

So I applaud you for being honest and acknowledging that you were not well catechized.:tiphat:

**
**
Why should I lie, saying I was catechised, but wasn’t? In the Bible it says: “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” (Deut 5,20)

Esdra

It’s not about lying. It’s about some ex-Catholics who are so certain that they know what the Catholic Church teaches. They are not “lying” when they say they know Catholicism. They are just wrong about what they* think* is Catholicism.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

Don’t be so sarcastic! g

Just wanted to know why a sorcer (You can’t be a sorcer AND a Christian btw. See Mal 3,5!) should be able to recognize a consecrated hostie…

Esdra

May the Peace of our Lord be with you. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus cured a demoniac who was blind and mute. The Pharisees claimed that Jesus performed this action through “the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons”, (12:24). Jesus stated that, “…it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons…”, (12:28). Considering their claim a blasphemy Jesus warned them, “whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (12:32).

My brother Esdra, in post # 725 you stated your love for our Savior Jesus and that you are doing all possible to obey His commandments for you love him. My heart rejoices to hear your testimony. Consider the following with an open heart. We Catholics believe that through the power of the Holy Spirit the substance of the bread and the wine becomes the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus, our Paschal Lamb. You have the right to accept or reject this belief. I do not reject or judge you for your unbelief. All I ask you is to do it in a respectful way. My dear friend and brother in Christ, this way you will not open the possibility of finding yourself guilty of the sin of “BLASPHEMY”. I hope and pray this request will find shelter in your heart.

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,

The name is consecrated Host…don’t defame by using the word ‘hostie’…that affects my sensibility not of me, but of the sacred.

Hi,

sorry my mistake. In German host = “Hostie”. I think I mixed it up somehow. It doesn’t have to do anything with defaming. It is just my lack of Catholic/Christian Terminology in English.

God bless you Kathleen,
Esdra

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, too, Esdra…and don’t let outsiders define Catholicism to you.

You show good faith by being here to get to the source.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

Hi,

sorry my mistake. In German host = “Hostie”. I think I mixed it up somehow. It doesn’t have to do anything with defaming. It is just my lack of Catholic/Christian Terminology in English.

God bless you Kathleen,
Esdra

My brother Esdra, I too accept your apology.

 

[Lapey]

May the Peace of our Lord be with you. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus cured a demoniac who was blind and mute. The Pharisees claimed that Jesus performed this action through “the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons”, (12:24). Jesus stated that, “…it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons…”, (12:28). Considering their claim a blasphemy Jesus warned them, “whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (12:32).

My brother Esdra, in post # 725 you stated your love for our Savior Jesus and that you are doing all possible to obey His commandments for you love him. My heart rejoices to hear your testimony. Consider the following with an open heart. We Catholics believe that through the power of the Holy Spirit the substance of the bread and the wine becomes the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus, our Paschal Lamb. You have the right to accept or reject this belief. I do not reject or judge you for your unbelief. All I ask you is to do it in a respectful way. My dear friend and brother in Christ, this way you will not open the possibility of finding yourself guilty of the sin of “BLASPHEMY”. I hope and pray this request will find shelter in your heart.

Great job here Deacon.

 

[shawn38]

Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem five days before the lamb was killed in the temple as the Passover sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel. Five days before the lamb was to be sacrificed, it was chosen. Therefore, Jesus entered Jerusalem on lamb selection day as the lamb of God

Jn 12:1Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethany…12The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem
Jn 1:29 …"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting “Hosanna!” (save us). “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the King of Israel!”

They were not looking for a spiritual Savior, but a political savior, a king appointed by the Lord. Palm branches were a symbol of freedom and defiance, since Simon Maccabeus had entered Jerusalem with that symbolism. What did Jesus do? He “wept”. Why? Because they did not recognize the time of God’s coming to them.

Symbolism in the Passover occurs early in the Seder (the Passover dinner). Three matzahs are put together (representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). During the Yahatz, the middle matzah is broken, wrapped in a white cloth, and hidden, representing the death and burial of Jesus. The matzah itself is designed to represent Jesus, since it is striped and pierced, which was prophesized by Isaiah, David, and Zechariah. Following the Seder meal during the Tzafun, the “buried” matzah is “resurrected,” which was foretold in the prophecies of David.

The priest would blow the shophar (ram’s horn) at 3:00 p.m. - the moment the lamb was sacrificed, and all the people would pause to contemplate the sacrifice for sins on behalf of the people of Israel. On Good Friday at 3:00,17 when Jesus was being crucified, He said, “It is finished”

Fifty days later, on the anniversary of the giving of the law (Pentecost), God left the earthly temple to inhabit those who call on the name of Jesus through His Holy Spirit.

Tzafun: What is the afikoman and what is it for? This was a Passover meal.

Paul tells us what the bread represents:

1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Cor 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Shows it’s still bread and wine after the blessing, thus “Do this in remembrance of me.”

Barech: What about the cup? The third cup of the Passover is the Cup of Redemption. Red wine was used. Most likely it was unfermented. After supper, Jews bless it and drink it.

Christ was teaching them how He was the fulfilment of the Passover.

At the Passover supper, the apostles eyes were not yet open to OT scriptures as it related to Christ. Their eyes were opened just before Christ’s ascension.

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jn 12:16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Lord gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins on the evening of the Resurrection. He promised them the Holy Spirit Who would take His place and teach them many things…and He continues to do so through His church.

The Holy Spirit utilized hermeneutics, going back to all the teachings, and the events of the Old Testament and now finding answers and fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Kathleen, you need to go into the “sola scriptura revisited” and help out! Someone there just doesn’t believe the authority of the apostles and the Church. help…

LOL, it’s Shawn’s thread and I don’t know how to convince nicely anymore

 

[KathleenGee]

Nice or unkindly…the problem is that people have alot of difficulty trusting the Holy Spirit.

Jesus promised His Teacher, Comforter, the Holy Spirit Who would teach the Apostles many things…

The Bible did not stop God’s interaction with His Apostles or their successors…or the believers…and we find out the continued teachings after Revelations in the Church.

People have a very hard time about the nature and mission of the Church. Christ did not erect a visible church building. He had His apostles…who went to many lands…the Church was very primitive and just beginning and would have to go through the process of integrating the Word of God into His people with persecution…outer structures aren’t built overnight.

I avoid Bible disputes…I comment on them but won’t use the Word in that context. You have visitors who come and ask questions…but it is different with them.

 

[Cinette]

And that is indeed a sad fact. After Vatican II so many priests and religious who should have given proper education to the young failed miserably in their duties. So many under catechized Catholics. It is no wonder that they are easy pickings for the other evangelical groups.

I belong to a church group where more of the members know very little about what we Catholics believe.

I have noticed this too in a lot of priests and nuns of a certain age. But I think that trend is starting to reverse as we get better formed priests and religious educators.

There is nothing wrong with the message but quite a lot to be desired in the messengers.

I saw a Journey Home Roundtable with two young Norwegian priests, a young woman involved in Catechesis and of course Marcus Grodi. Although the number of Catholics in Norway is small (for years Catholicism was forbidden in Norway) today it is found that there are more vocations to the priesthood proportionately to the Catholic population than anywhere in the world! The young priests said that what attracted them to the priesthood was having priest role models in their parishes and that it is important to have “happy priests”. I have taped this programme. Yes a certain liberalism entered the Church and affected certain priests and religious but hopefully this will reverse.

I am saying a 54 day rosary novena for the Church.

God love you all
Cinette

 

[shawn38]

shawn,

Just out of curiosity what is the literal interpretation of verse 29 (the whole verse) ?

Thanks,
VC

Verbum.

The rest of " I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.” refers to the taking of Gods people to be with Him when He establishes His new kingdom. During the Passover meal, Christ never drank of the 4th cup which represents the “I will take.” Some refer to the cup as the Cup of Completion or Praise.

Four cups of wine of the Passover
1st cup “I will bring out,”
2nd cup “I will deliver,”
3rd cup"I will redeem,"
4th cup “I will take.”

 

[rev_kevin]

You should be present during exorcism with THE EUCHARIST.

I know what you are saying but did you ever think that Satan don’t like symbols that has to do with Christ or anything that is symbolic of what Christ stands for. Did the person who was being exorcised like the presents of the priest, probably not, why because he is a symbol of Christ. What about the prayers or the cross, did that person accept or reject them, my guess is rejection why because they have to do with Christ, they are symbolic of Christ. This don’t prove the real presents of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[CONFUSED1111]

I know what you are saying but did you ever think that Satan don’t like symbols that has to do with Christ or anything that is symbolic of what Christ stands for. Did the person who was being exorcised like the presents of the priest, probably not, why because he is a symbol of Christ. What about the prayers or the cross, did that person accept or reject them, my guess is rejection why because they have to do with Christ, they are symbolic of Christ. This don’t prove the real presents of Christ in the Eucharist.

For you, nothing is good enough to be the proof.
Then return to the Bible.
Jesus said “This is my body”, not “This is a symbol of my body”.
Then He said: “Whoever eats it , will live forever”. (free interpretation).
Of course that one will live forever if he eats THE BODY OF CHRIST, not a symbol of it.

Peace be with you.

 

[Cinette]

I know what you are saying but did you ever think that Satan don’t like symbols that has to do with Christ or anything that is symbolic of what Christ stands for. Did the person who was being exorcised like the presents of the priest, probably not, why because he is a symbol of Christ. What about the prayers or the cross, did that person accept or reject them, my guess is rejection why because they have to do with Christ, they are symbolic of Christ. This don’t prove the real presents of Christ in the Eucharist.

*I guess you mean “presence” of Christ in the Eucharist.

Cheers
Cinette*

 

[benedictus2]

Christ is just as much the door as He is the bread of life.

Except that He did not give an extensive discourse about being a door as He did about being the Bread of Life.

And the Jews new perfectly well that He was speaking symbolically when he spoke of being a door so no complaints there. Quite different when He started speaking about eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

 

[benedictus2]

No, Jesus doesn’t come into bread and wine truly present. But we also don’t believe in that!
Jesus is there “where two or three come together in His name.” (cf. Mt 18:20).

Jesus doesn’t come into our bread and wine either. The bread and wine becomes transformed into His Body and Blood. It is true that He is there where two or more are gathered in His name. But the bread and wine does become transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ whether you believe it or not.

The Biblical support for this is the Bread of LIfe discourse in John 6 and the last supper accounts in the synoptic.

And I have always felt that Jesus is here during worship and the whole entire service in my Baptist Community and (maybe even a bit more) in Pentecostal Churches (I sometimes attend the Pentecostal Church “Every Nation”).

And I have no doubt He is. But your feeling is neither the determiner nor the barometer of Jesus’s presence. He is there whether you feel bored or entertained because He said so. That is why whether you feel Him or not in the Mass, He is there because He said so. And the bread and the wine is transformed into His body and blood because He said so.

And services at Protestant Churches is not about ourselves, but about our Lord and Saviour! Just as it is in the Catholic Church!!

The reason for the service yes. But the reason for attending the service is quite a different matter altogether.

You said that you don’t go to Mass because you are bored there. You prefer the protestant service because you feel good there. So therefore your going to the baptist service is about you not about God. Because if you really believe that God is present in the Mass, then it would not matter whether you feel good there or not, you will go because the service is not about you but about worshiping God.

If going to Mass is truly about God then you will go no matter whether He gives you the grace to feel His presence or not. This is not something we can manufacture. I have attended a protestant service where I truly cannot understand what the hype is all about. The hype was all manufactured. Now I am not saying that the all protestant services produce hype. I am only referring to the one I attended.

Modern man is so addicted to feeling good that they have reduced the value of worship to feeling good.

We have in the beginning a short reading out of the bible.

We have in the beginning the Kyrie (the Lord Have mercy), then we have the Confetitor asking God to forgive us for our sins, then we recite or sign the Gloria in praise of God’s greatness.

Then we have a reading from the OT, a recitation of the Psalms, a reading from the NT and then the Proclamation of the Gospel.

Then the announces, then the worship - where we praise our Lord and Saviour for what He has done for us on the cross and that we love Him with (modern songs) and then everybody has time to thank Jesus or tell him whatever he has upon his heart in his own words. (Mt 7,9-11)

Then we have the Homily where the priest breaks open the Word of God so that we may understand it better. Then we recite the Creed affirming our faith in the Father, Son and Holy sprit and in the redemption of Christ on the Cross and his resurrection and in the Church that He has founded so that we may all become one body.

Then we have the intercessions where we ask God aloud and in silence for help in the world, in his church and in our lives and we pray for those who have passed away.

Either aloud or in silence. If you haven’t been in a worship, you won’t understand.

And now comes the moment when we bring our offering of bread and wine. We offer that to the Father. The Father received our offering and returns them to us as the Body and blood of His Beloved Son.

You won’t understand that feeling to feel Jesus standing right in front of you - this certainty that he is REALLY there. This feeling inside your heart when you sing for Him and then bring towards Him whatever

And then comes that most profound moment where we go and RECEIVE Him. He is no longer just there in front of us but inside us, His blood flowing in us. That is the closest anyone can get to God this side of eternity.

This knowledge that the lifeblood of Jesus Christ is coursing through our veins… You have no idea how incredible that is. It is beyond words.

And so we pray at communion for this wondrous gift of Himself. Our thanks are indequate but we know He receives that with love for it was His initiative in the first place to give us Himself as food.

And then we are sent! To love and serve the Lord!

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem five days before the lamb was killed in the temple as the Passover sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel. Five days before the lamb was to be sacrificed, it was chosen. Therefore, Jesus entered Jerusalem on lamb selection day as the lamb of God

Jn 12:1Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethany…12The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem
Jn 1:29 …"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jn 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting “Hosanna!” (save us). “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the King of Israel!”

They were not looking for a spiritual Savior, but a political savior, a king appointed by the Lord. Palm branches were a symbol of freedom and defiance, since Simon Maccabeus had entered Jerusalem with that symbolism. What did Jesus do? He “wept”. Why? Because they did not recognize the time of God’s coming to them.

Symbolism in the Passover occurs early in the Seder (the Passover dinner). Three matzahs are put together (representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). During the Yahatz, the middle matzah is broken, wrapped in a white cloth, and hidden, representing the death and burial of Jesus. The matzah itself is designed to represent Jesus, since it is striped and pierced, which was prophesized by Isaiah, David, and Zechariah. Following the Seder meal during the Tzafun, the “buried” matzah is “resurrected,” which was foretold in the prophecies of David.

The priest would blow the shophar (ram’s horn) at 3:00 p.m. - the moment the lamb was sacrificed, and all the people would pause to contemplate the sacrifice for sins on behalf of the people of Israel. On Good Friday at 3:00,17 when Jesus was being crucified, He said, “It is finished”

Fifty days later, on the anniversary of the giving of the law (Pentecost), God left the earthly temple to inhabit those who call on the name of Jesus through His Holy Spirit.

Tzafun: What is the afikoman and what is it for? This was a Passover meal.

Paul tells us what the bread represents:

1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Cor 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Shows it’s still bread and wine after the blessing, thus “Do this in remembrance of me.”

Barech: What about the cup? The third cup of the Passover is the Cup of Redemption. Red wine was used. Most likely it was unfermented. After supper, Jews bless it and drink it.

Christ was teaching them how He was the fulfilment of the Passover.

At the Passover supper, the apostles eyes were not yet open to OT scriptures as it related to Christ. Their eyes were opened just before Christ’s ascension.

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jn 12:16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

So what are you trying to say with this? We know the scripture, so what is your exegesis.

 

[benedictus2]

I saw a Journey Home Roundtable with two young Norwegian priests, a young woman involved in Catechesis and of course Marcus Grodi. Although the number of Catholics in Norway is small (for years Catholicism was forbidden in Norway) today it is found that there are more vocations to the priesthood proportionately to the Catholic population than anywhere in the world! The young priests said that what attracted them to the priesthood was having priest role models in their parishes and that it is important to have “happy priests”. I have taped this programme. Yes a certain liberalism entered the Church and affected certain priests and religious but hopefully this will reverse.

I am saying a 54 day rosary novena for the Church.

God love you all
Cinette

I heard on the news the other day that they have the highest entry into the seminar in the US this year in a long time. God will not forsake His Church, because it is the Body and Bride of His Son.

The rosary novena is great. Prayer is our best weapon against the devils attacks.

 

[benedictus2]

I know what you are saying but did you ever think that Satan don’t like symbols that has to do with Christ or anything that is symbolic of what Christ stands for. Did the person who was being exorcised like the presents of the priest, probably not, why because he is a symbol of Christ. What about the prayers or the cross, did that person accept or reject them, my guess is rejection why because they have to do with Christ, they are symbolic of Christ. This don’t prove the real presents of Christ in the Eucharist.

Yes Satan does not like any symbol that has to do with Christ but more so with Christ’s real presence.

Below is a link on the exorcism of Nicola Aubrey. This will drive home the point that Confused1111 is making.

olrl.org/stories/exorcism.shtml