How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[rinnie]

Your missing what I’m saying. This is my body, [the bread was a symbol of his body, he is the bread of life, what better to use as a symbol of his body than bread] then he says TO BE GIVEN for you [to be the last sacrifice to God for our sins, his body was given for our sins, to suffer and die in the cross for us] thats what to be given means.
Now you say that if Jesus didn’t say this is my body it would be just a remembrance of the meal. Do this in rememberance of me. [when you break bread think of what I have done for the world, think about my suffering and dying for your sins. Remember what I came here for, remember me who gave his all for you]

They were eating and drinking a symbol of his body and blood that was to be given and shed for you, for your sins, to save the world

No ALL who eat his flesh [his body, the bread} meaning all who believe in him. I assure you, anyone who believes in me already has eternal life. I assure you, unless you eat the flesh [blieve] of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you can not have eternal life within you. {unless you believe in me you will not have eternal life} Remember this was said before the Last Supper happened. Here Jesus is talking about believing in him, eating his flesh, his body, that has not yet became his body and blood but they have eternal life. The only bread he was talking about was him being sent down from heaven as the bread of life.and this was said before the Last Supper so it would stand to reason that he meant all who believe in him and not that he is in the bread and wine.

He did not give eternal life only to his disciples when he died, this was given to all before he died. Remember John 6 was before the last supper and before his death when he said, I assure you, anyone who believe in me already has eternal life.

John don’t even mention the Last Supper, so to him it was not of much importance that Jesus turned the bread and wine into his body and blood. Because it was only a symbol. If he thought it important or that Jesus really turned the bread and wine into his body and blood he would of put it in his writtings but he didn’t.

No way Rev Kev that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said Take and eat this is my body, then he took the cup and said this is my blood of the covenant which WILL BE shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you from now on I shall NOT drink this FRUIT of the Vine until the day wen I drink it with you NEW in the Kingdom of my Father.

It was no accident that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definiive meaning. Jesus passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection. THe new Passover is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist which fulfillls the Jewish Passover and anticipated he fnal Passover of the CHURCH in the glory of the Kingdom. (CCC1340)

Read Mt. 26:29-29 Again. All was going according to the celebrating of Jewish Passover EXCEPT Mt 26:26-29 Jesus said I will not drink again the fruit of the vine until tat day when I drink it again with you in my Fathers kingdom.

HERE WAS THE THIRD CUP, the cup of the BLESSING. BUt Jesus said the bread and wine were is body, what did he mean?

Blood of the covenant is Ex. 24:8 Again something all the disciples would have understood, the Covenant of God and Israel. Jesus is saying a new covenant will be made IN HIS BLOOD.

Next in the liturgy was singing a hymn of praise and thens hould come the cup of consummation. But Jesus said NO he would not drink wine again. So after the hymn of praise they went out to Mount of Olives. IF you knew the Passover you would be shocked they abandoned Passover before it was FINISHED. For SOME REASON it was not time was it?

Now they all left with him,

Jesus said if possible let this CUP pass from me. He was only showing he had a fully HUMAN NATURE. He felt OUR FEAR. But he also showed us you can be human and still obey God.

Now back to the garden the LAST SUPPER Jesus offered to his Father is accepted in the Garden of Gethsemani, making himself obedient to death.

Now move unti THe Last cup.

Mt 15:33-34 Then read on (they offered Jesus a brand of hyssop (the same herb that was used for spinkling the blood of the passover lamb in Ex. 12:22)

After he drank the vinegar Jesus said IT IS FINISHED. It was the LAST CUP that Jesus swon not to drink UNTIL the TIME had COME. He bowed his head and gave up his Spirit!

Please read John Paull ll Ecclesia de Eucharistia. It is all quite clear.

The Eucharist is what is the source and summit of all evangelization since it is the communion of mankind with Christ and IN HIM with the Father and the HOLY SPRIIT!!

 

[Esdra]

Yes, rinnie, I do deny Christ in the Holy Eucharist. For me, also in that time when I was a Catholic, Jesus WAS NEVER in the Holy Eucharist (neither in the Tabarnacle, nor in Bread and Wine). This is the reason why I never felt comfortable in the Holy Mass!

Okay, let’s put it differently: I believe in the “real presance” of Jesus Christ during Worship, service (and maybe even mass - although I never “felt Him” there…).

He IS prestent through His Holy Spirit (cf. John 15:26, 16:7)and because He had promised to be “…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)”

Esdra

 

[rinnie]

Esdra do you not see how Jesus REVEALED himself in the Eucharist. Please you had to learn someithing in school if just ONLY this.

Go back with the disciples esdra. In Luke. WHO were they talking to esdra? JESUS. He told them, foolish men and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken.

What did the 2 disciples do esdra? They had supper with the Friend. Then what happened esdra, What happens ever Sunday in Church, He was at table with them, he took them bread.

Luke 24:30-31

When HE was at table he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. And their EYES WERE OPENED and they RECOGNIZED HIM and he VANISHED out of their sight.

Go back to the Mass now esdra in your mind. What happens every sunday.

When he was at table he said this IS MY BODY which HAS been GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

We do not sacrafice Christ over and over. We celebrate in his death and resurrection until he comes again in Glory.

What did the disciples do esdra. THey ran back to Jerusalem and found the Aposltes telling them everything they had seen and HOW HE WAS KNOW TO THEM IN THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD!!!

Esdra when are you eyes going to once again open???

Luke 22:19-22 This cup is poured out for you and this cup that is poured out for you is the NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, let’s put it differently: I believe in the “real presance” of Jesus Christ during Worship, service (and maybe even mass - although I never “felt Him” there…).

He IS prestent through His Holy Spirit (cf. John 15:26, 16:7)and because He had promised to be “…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)”

Esdra

No Esdra, that is not going to fly. We are cool buddy. You know how I feel about you. But like a parent I am going to take the stand and let you be mad at me but I will correct you. You cannot say you deny his presence then accept it.

And you are correct and you did learn something in school yet!!! Yes he does make his presence know through the Power of the Holy Spirit!! I will give you that.

The Eucharist is the Real bread and blood of Christ made possible by the Power of the Holy Spirit. BUt its not a symbol. See what I mean! The Priest has the Power of the Holy to take the bread and wine and transform it into the living CHrist. It becomes by the power of the Holy Spirit the actual bread and blood of Christ or we could not obtain eternal life from it.

Ya picking up what I am laying down here buddy!!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay, let’s put it differently: I believe in the “real presance” of Jesus Christ during Worship, service ([SIGN]and maybe even mass - although I never “felt Him” there…).[/SIGN]
He IS prestent through His Holy Spirit (cf. John 15:26, 16:7)and because He had promised to be “…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)”

Esdra

You never felt it esdra because you never really understood what was happening and how POWERFULL the Eucharist is. But you will my friend. I am pulling and praying for you everyday. Give it time.

 

[Esdra]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You never felt it esdra because you never really understood what was happening and how POWERFULL the Eucharist is. But you will my friend. I am pulling and praying for you everyday. Give it time.

Hi

this is all nice and okay what you are writing. And it is really nice that you are so concerned about my soul.

But, as I have told you over and over again in this thread, via PM and in other threads:

I KNOW that the protestant Teachings are correct - and, sorry for that one, the Catholic Doctrine isn’t.

I won’t go back - this is so sure like the Amen in a prayer! (Don’t know if you can say that in English - this is a German Proverb literally translated into English! )

Esdra

 

[Harland]

*I have asked about this before - don’t you mean the “Real Presence”? However you keep talking about the real presents and I am wondering what you mean by presents. Never heard of this before - and you are not the only Protestant to refer to the “real presents”.

I am confused.

God bless
Cinette*

Maybe he did mean presents? A present is a gift and what greater gift is there than the Real Presence?

 

[Esdra]

Maybe he did mean presents? A present is a gift and what greater gift is there than the Real Presence?

The Real Presents? Sounds funny! ^^
Also never heard about that (although I also haven’t heard anything about the “Wahre Anwesenheit” or so in German - but that’s maybe because I was undercatechised…)

Could that be that he isn’t a native speaker of English just as I am?

Esdra

 

[tarbal79]

The Baptism is not part of this thread. This thread is about the Eucharist. You can explain the Real Presence without going off topic.

I never said I was correct or wrong, I am stating my beliefs on the matter. Now have you ever thought that the CC or you might be wrong? After all there is no one, except Jesus, that is infallible and that no one includes the Pope who is only a human being like the rest of us, capable of making mistakes.

The same Jesus who makes us new creatures at Baptism is the same Jesus who changes the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. We appear the same before and after Baptism and the bread and wine appears the same before and after it becomes His Body and Blood. Both are in the Bible you can not believe in one and not the other. The Apostles knew what Jesus truly met by John Chapter 6 and that is why they taught the Real Presence in the Bread and Wine to the early Christians.
Yes you are right the Pope is human like the rest of us and capable of mistakes, but when it comes to Church doctrine we believe that the Pope is infallible because the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit concerning the doctrine after all Jesus told us He be with us until the end of times. The Pope is not infallible on all things just Church doctrines. If you don’t believe your belief to be true and faithful to Jesus why state them or defend them?

 

[KathleenGee]

RevKevin has heard this many, many, many times.

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

I do not intend to engage here, but what made you come to CAF? I am sorry if I missed the reason why…

 

[tarbal79]

Hi

this is all nice and okay what you are writing. And it is really nice that you are so concerned about my soul.

But, as I have told you over and over again in this thread, via PM and in other threads:

I KNOW that the protestant Teachings are correct - and, sorry for that one, the Catholic Doctrine isn’t.

I won’t go back - this is so sure like the Amen in a prayer! (Don’t know if you can say that in English - this is a German Proverb literally translated into English! )

Esdra

Esdra, my brother in Christ, never say you won’t go back because you never know what path the Holy Spirit will guide you to take. I am a convert and I KNOW just as well that the CC has the true Doctrine as taught by the Apostles and handed down by the Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles. Remember when you read the Early Christian teaching that they are from people who were taught by the Apostles and not one of the many Christian sects that were around at the time. Read St Justin Martyr, St Ignatius of Anitoch-who was appointed Bishop of Anitoch by St Peter, St Polycarp these men where taught by the Apostles and knew what the Apostles taught. Yes there where Christian sects even back than and they were slowed down while the Apostles and the early Church Fathers.

 

[tarbal79]

RevKevin has heard this many, many, many times.

I have been reading RevKevin but when I stand before the Throne I want to know we did are best to defend Him and His Church. As for RevKevin all we can do is pray and leave it up the the Holy Spirit because his heart has been hidden to the truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, let’s put it differently: I believe in the “real presance” of Jesus Christ during Worship, service (and maybe even mass - although I never “felt Him” there…).

I think it’s a very, very dangerous thing to base one’s theology and understanding of Truth based on how one “feels”. Or,to say: Transubstantiation is not True because one did not ever feel tears during the Consecration at Mass.

That’s a man-made tradition you’ve bought into, Esdra. No where in Scripture does it say that how one feels, or how choked up someone gets, is the criterion for determining whether something is true or not.

 

[brkn1]

Sorry but St Augustine knows more about what Jesus meant than you do. The Church for 1000 years believe the same,

This thought seems to define Catholic thought.
How are you so sure that Augustine knows more about Jesus than others?
Augustine was a man like others and therefore he was possibly subject to some error as all others are.

To forget that all men are subject to the possibility of error is to allow for possible error to become locked in as “truth”.

 

[PRmerger]

To forget that all men are subject to the possibility of error is to allow for possible error to become locked in as “truth”.

If you really believe this, brkn, then you can have no faith in Scripture–you will have to believe that what Peter wrote has the possibility of error, what Paul wrote is capable of being wrong, what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote could be wrong.

 

[rinnie]

Hi

this is all nice and okay what you are writing. And it is really nice that you are so concerned about my soul.

But, as I have told you over and over again in this thread, via PM and in other threads:

I KNOW that the protestant Teachings are correct - and, sorry for that one, the Catholic Doctrine isn’t.

I won’t go back - this is so sure like the Amen in a prayer! (Don’t know if you can say that in English - this is a German Proverb literally translated into English! )

Esdra

Then if they are so true why do you yourself admit that you do not accept all of them. You admitted yourself that you accept the Teaching of the Church that Jesus Christ is indeed alive and well in the real Presence in the Eucharist, and Rev Kev who is the same faith of you claims that your faith rejects the real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay, let’s put it differently: I[SIGN] believe in the “real presance” of [/SIGN]Jesus Christ during Worship, service (and maybe even mass - although I never “felt Him” there…).

He IS prestent through His Holy Spirit (cf. John 15:26, 16:7)and because He had promised to be “…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:20)”

Esdra

See

 

[jlhargus]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

See

JL: Mark

 

[Esdra]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

See

Why do think I wrote “Real Presence” and not without "?

I, and maybe also revkevin, who is apparently a brother in Christ and in the same denomination, do believe that Jesus is ALWAYS there, because he is first of all IN US thru the Holy Ghost and secondly he is with us because he promised us to be.

BUT, this doesn’t mean that he becomes present in wine and bread - there is no such thing like transsubstituion - this is one of the “pagan rites” that came into Christianity when Emporor Justinian (I think this was the Emporor after Constantine, right? - Not sure anymore…) - made Christianity to the main religion to safe his Empire.

PLEASE, read my post again where I have written WHY there is no real presence. - It was quite hard for me to translate it into English. (This would be Post #850!)

Esdra