How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[PRmerger]

Can you please identify who it is that teaches such a thing as a point of doctrine?

Anyone who denies the authority of a Church believes this paradigm. Now, they might not acknowledge it as a “point of doctrine”, but it is the paradigm from which they work.

Otherwise, they’d be Catholic.

But, to address your question: here’s a list of 80 denominations who deny the authority of the CC.

1. 
   *]A of BC in Luzon Visayas Mindanao
   *]A Unterstütz in Mennonitengemeinden
   *]Abbott Loop Fell of Community Churches
   *]Aboriginal pentecostal congregations
   *]Absolute Maori Established Church
   *]Acção Bíblica
   *]Acción Misionera Iglesia de Dios
   *]Achang Church
   *]Achewa Baptist Church
   *]Action Apostolique
   *]Action Biblique
   *]Acts Mission Church of South Africa
   *]Acts of Apostles Christ Church Nigeria
   *]Advent Christian Church
   *]Advent Christian Conference
   *]Advent Christian Conference of Japan
   *]Adventist Church
   *]Adventists of the True Remnant
   *]Africa Christian network
   *]Africa Evangelical Church
   *]Africa Evangelical Church of Malawi
   *]Africa Gospel Church
   *]Africa Gospel Unity Church
   *]Africa Inland Church
   *]African Apostolic Church of Johane Maranke
   *]African Apostolic Church of Johane Masowe
   *]African Apostolic Church of Nigeria & Benin
   *]African Apostolic Church St Simon & St Johane
   *]African Apostolic Faith Mission
   *]African Assemblies of God
   *]African Baptist Assembly Malawi
   *]African Born Full Gospel Apostolic Ch
   *]African Brotherhood Church
   *]African Catholic Church
   *]African Christian Church & Schools
   *]African Christians Fellowship
   *]African Church
   *]African Church Mission
   *]African Church of Jesus Christ in Kenya
   *]African Church of the Holy Spirit
   *]African Church The
   *]African Congregational Church
   *]African Covenant Church
   *]African Disciples of Christ
   *]African Divine Church
   *]African Evangelical Presbyterian Ch
   *]African Faith Tabernacle Church
   *]African Free Presb Church of Zimbabwe
   *]African Full Gospel Church
   *]African Gospel Church
   *]African Holy Zionist Church
   *]African Independent Church of Kenya
   *]African Independent Pentecostal Church of Africa
   *]African Interior Church
   *]African Israel Church Nineveh
   *]African Methodist Church in Zimbabwe
   *]African Methodist Episcopal Church
   *]African Methodist Episcopal Zion Ch
   *]African Mission of Holy Ghost Church
   *]African National Church
   *]African National/International Church
   *]African New Life Ministries
   *]African Reformed Coptic Church of God
   *]African Salvation Army Church
   *]African Union First Colored MP Ch
   *]Afrikaans Baptist Church
   *]Afrikaans Protestant Church
   *]Agape Fellowship
   *]Agape Ministries International
   *]Akha Church
   *]Aladura Internat Church UK & Overseas
   *]Alaph Divine Temple
   *]Aliança Biblica do Brasil
   *]Aliança Cristã e Missionária
   *]Aliança das Igrejas Cristãs Ev do Brasil
   *]Alianca Ev C&MA
   *]Alianca Evangelica Missionaria
   *]Alianza Cristiana Pentecostal
   *]Alianza Cristiana y Misionera
   *]Alianza Cristiana y Misionera del U
   
   source: here

 

[FantomScholar]

I saw a study not long ago that a majority of American Catholics don’t believe in transubstantiaion either. So, I’m not alone in this. I believe that millions have quietly left the church because they simply and honestly cannot believe what they find to be unbelievable. Millions of others remain in the church for a variety of reasons who also don’t accept this and other teachings. I guess these are what are called cafeteria Catholics. What should be done with them? In the ‘good old days’ they could be tried and executed for heresy, but here in America that not an option. My guess is that they have about as good a chance to get into heaven as all of the rest of us.

In fairness to Roman Catholics (as well as Christians in general), I don’t believe that we should teach a doctrine based on how many people accept it. The vast majority of the world’s population does not accept that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean the church ceases to proclaim Him as such. I agree that transubstantiation is wrong; but I don’t disagree with the teaching based on my reason alone. To do so would be to subject the Scriptures to my reason, and God’s word cannot be reduced to that level. It shouldn’t, of course, be irrational. It will always be mysterious, though.

Any church body has to lay out a clear set of teaching to which it expects its members to abide by. Otherwise, you don’t have any meaningful belief system at all.

 

[FantomScholar]

Anyone who denies the authority of a Church believes this paradigm. Now, they might not acknowledge it as a “point of doctrine”, but it is the paradigm from which they work.

Otherwise, they’d be Catholic.

But, to address your question: here’s a list of 80 denominations who deny the authority of the CC.

I am trying to get at the heart of your contention, however. Do you believe that anyone who rejects the authority of the Roman church operates from the paradigm that we can believe whatever we want without any (name removed by moderator)ut from any ecclesiastical or creedal authority?

 

[KathleenGee]

It is irrelevant of American Catholics’ numbers of those not believing in the Eucharist vs the many Catholics who do considering the state of faith and morals in in this country, and the dominating force of subjective relativism.

PRMerger gave a list of disputes in post 906 as well as the list of many protestant groups vs. the Eucharist. I prefer the belief in the Eucharist which has held for 2,000 years.

Catholicism believes in the concrete and not that which is arbitrary…and please note that Jesus died on the pagan cross.

 

[PRmerger]

I am trying to get at the heart of your contention, however. Do you believe that anyone who rejects the authority of the Roman church operates from the paradigm that we can believe whatever we want without any (name removed by moderator)ut from any ecclesiastical or creedal authority?

Not at all. I believe that each ecclesial community believes, “The HS led us to understand the Scriptures mean A and if my pastor, who is fallible, teaches that it means B, then he is wrong and we must leave and start a new church, as the HS guides us…”

Behind every newly formed ecclesial community is the nagging fear that each pastor is fallible. Thus, he’s *going to be wrong *at some point. Undoubtedly. Thus, one can never be sure that what is preached from the pulpit is the truth, and one must always be ready to form a new church that’s *really *“led by the HS”.

 

[FantomScholar]

But, to address your question: here’s a list of 80 denominations who deny the authority of the CC.

As a follow up question… in the list of denominations there, I noticed that more than a few are actually parts of one denomination. Off hand the various Adventist churches come to mind. So why does that source list them as different denominations?

 

[PRmerger]

As a follow up question… in the list of denominations there, I noticed that more than a few are actually parts of one denomination. Off hand the various Adventist churches come to mind. So why does that source list them as different denominations?

Because they have had differences in their pastor’s interpretations of Scripture, no doubt! That exactly is the fruit of the paradigm that there is no authority. Each man becomes his own pope.

Reminds me of the joke: What do you get when 2 different Christians disagree on Scripture?

A new denomination.

 

[FantomScholar]

Not at all. I believe that each ecclesial community believes, “The HS led us to understand the Scriptures mean A and if my pastor, who is fallible, teaches that it means B, then he is wrong and we must leave and start a new church, as the HS guides us…”

Behind every newly formed ecclesial community is the nagging fear that each pastor is fallible. Thus, he’s *going to be wrong *at some point. Undoubtedly. Thus, one can never be sure that what is preached from the pulpit is the truth, and one must always be ready to form a new church that’s *really *“led by the HS”.

I am not denying that that has occurred. However, in reality, it doesn’t seem to be as common as some people argue it. Churches split for a number of reasons. A lot of times, it doesn’t have anything to do with doctrine at all. In my limited experience, when it has happened, it tends to be a personality issue. However, such an argument is mainly aimed at non-denominational churches that really do not have any impact in the overall Christian world. If your argument were completely true, you would have to argue that the Orthodox have the same mindset on following their own opinions left and right.

If you look at the larger, more established church bodies, they are no more or less unified than Rome. Rome may have hierarchical unity, that is true. However, of its 1.2 billion members, how many are in lockstep unison with the teachings of the magisterium? If they aren’t, then how is Rome’s organizational unity any better off than the unity of the Presbyterian Church in America?

When I became an elder at my church, I had to take an ordination vow to adhere to our church’s statement of faith. If I were to go against that statement in my interpretations or teachings, I would no longer be an elder. In fact, I wouldn’t be a member of the church.

 

[brkn1]

I have never doubted the Eucharist in my entire life. My friends and I in Catholic school would go to the church and pray to Jesus in the tabernacle.

The kingdom of Christ is within.

.

The Lord Jesus Christ is physically in Heaven at this time until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. See (Hebrews 1:3)
He is not physically locked up inside any tabernacle made by man. Such a belief presents a form of idolatry, which pagans are prone to do; but such idolatry is condemned in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit indwells all born again believers given to Christ by the Father. By means of the Holy Spirit, Jesus also spiritually indwells all believers. That explains “The kingdom of Christ is within”. This kingdom of Christ is not speaking of any physical indwelling or physical presence at this time. A physical presence of Christ will happen at the promised Second Coming, which would lose all real meaning if Christ is now already physically present as many claim.

 

[FantomScholar]

Because they have had differences in their pastor’s interpretations of Scripture, no doubt! That exactly is the fruit of the paradigm that there is no authority. Each man becomes his own pope.

Reminds me of the joke: What do you get when 2 different Christians disagree on Scripture?

A new denomination.

From looking at the source you listed…the Adventists are all in fellowship with each other on doctrine. So how is that different Scriptural interpretation? If they do, they wouldn’t be in fellowship with each other. What is the source you are using?

 

[PRmerger]

I am not denying that that has occurred. However, in reality, it doesn’t seem to be as common as some people argue it. Churches split for a number of reasons. A lot of times, it doesn’t have anything to do with doctrine at all.

Can you cite a source for this, Fantom?

However, such an argument is mainly aimed at non-denominational churches that really do not have any impact in the overall Christian world.

Could you explain what you mean by this? Each corner church, each church of 25 members which meets in a basement, each ecclesial community that forms when someone disagrees with another’s interpretation of Scripture has “little impact”???

If your argument were completely true, you would have to argue that the Orthodox have the same mindset on following their own opinions left and right

Fair enough.

If you look at the larger, more established church bodies, they are no more or less unified than Rome. Rome may have hierarchical unity, that is true. However, of its 1.2 billion members, how many are in lockstep unison with the teachings of the magisterium? If they aren’t, then how is Rome’s organizational unity any better off than the unity of the Presbyterian Church in America?

Abusus non tollit usum. The fact that 1.2 billion members do not agree with the Magisterium says more about the members than it does about the Truth professed by the Magisterium. It does not discount that the CC has 1 authority and if one wants to know “what does the CC teach about ______” we know where to look.

 

[PRmerger]

When I became an elder at my church, I had to take an ordination vow to adhere to our church’s statement of faith. If I were to go against that statement in my interpretations or teachings, I would no longer be an elder. In fact, I wouldn’t be a member of the church.

I can’t tell if you think this is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[PRmerger]

From looking at the source you listed…the Adventists are all in fellowship with each other on doctrine. So how is that different Scriptural interpretation? If they do, they wouldn’t be in fellowship with each other. What is the source you are using?

I cited my source already…but here it is again.

But perhaps you are right–and the doctrines of the all the Adventist churches are the same. I don’t know where to find their equivalent to our Catechism, to determine what exactly it is they believe.

 

[FantomScholar]

Can you cite a source for this, Fantom?

Nope, it’s mostly anecdotal I haven’t been involved in any church splits myself (probably because most of my life so far has been spent in the Army and school haha). I can only go based on when I’ve seen them happen.

Could you explain what you mean by this? Each corner church, each church of 25 members which meets in a basement, each ecclesial community that forms when someone disagrees with another’s interpretation of Scripture has “little impact”???

I mean on the grand total of Christians worldwide. The vast majority belong to established churches and never leave (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on the church ahemEpiscopal). The phenomena of constant church splitting seems to be an American thing, largely wrought by revivalism.

Abusus non tollit usum. The fact that 1.2 billion members do not agree with the Magisterium says more about the members than it does about the Truth professed by the Magisterium. It does not discount that the CC has 1 authority and if one wants to know “what does the CC teach about ______” we know where to look.

Absoluteliiiuhm usum However, the same can be said about Protestant churches, by and large. If you want to know what our church teaches, we have a statement of faith. Presbyterians have the Westminster Confession, Lutherans the Book of Concord, and the Episcopalians have Cosmo magazine (jk!!).

But this doesn’t control what the members believe. If some goofball wants to leave and start another church… who is going to stop him? Neither the Pope nor the Baptist elders. The only way to do that is to set them on fire… which, believe me, has been tried! You have to apply the same standard across the board.

 

[FantomScholar]

I cited my source already…but here it is again.

But perhaps you are right–and the doctrines of the all the Adventist churches are the same. I don’t know where to find their equivalent to our Catechism, to determine what exactly it is they believe.

Sorry, but I didn’t catch it the first time. Thanks.

Well, being familiar with Adventist teaching… you’re probably better off not knowing

 

[FantomScholar]

I can’t tell if you think this is a good thing or a bad thing.

The only time it’s bad is the annual mandatory eating of the Christmas green bean casserole. I’m gonna schism over that one.

 

[PRmerger]

The only time it’s bad is the annual mandatory eating of the Christmas green bean casserole. I’m gonna schism over that one.

Definitely a schism-maker. That and the 3-bean salad soaking in vinegar. :dts:

To the point: if you disagree with your pastor on a point of doctrine, what do you do? I suppose you’ve thought about this, considering you know that your pastor and/or your board of directors are fallible in their interpretation of Scripture. (I’m only kind of being coy here. )

 

[KathleenGee]

I do not trust new histories created by fundamentalist preachers who spent questionable years in questionable bible schools, whose construct was and always is that based on anti-Catholicism and dredging out any scandal. Their followers are totally unaware of the tremendous significance of the Eucharist in the lives of believers.

The Breaking of the Bread has been the practice of Catholic Christians since the beginning at Pentecost. Ancient documents verify this. Do a search on St. Justin the Martyr. I have witnessed those who protest, reject early documents that clearly show the belief and practices of early liturgies and the Eucharist.

Without the history of believers and apostolic practices, peoples’ accusations of the Eucharist not being the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is arbitrary and reactionary as well as programmed with the same superificial and biased spins.

And Catholics who reject the Church and the sacraments are potentially not Catholics if they do not renew their faith at Easter. They are then as Protestants.

 

[FantomScholar]

Definitely a schism-maker. That and the 3-bean salad soaking in vinegar. :dts:

Just the thought would be enough to make me go to a church with a better buffet bar. Southern cooking has its limits.

To the point: if you disagree with your pastor on a point of doctrine, what do you do? I suppose you’ve thought about this, considering you know that your pastor and/or your board of directors are fallible in their interpretation of Scripture. (I’m only kind of being coy here. )

Well, if I did, I would consume every possible resource on the topic in question. Greek exegesis, Biblical commentaries, how that doctrine has traditionally been viewed, the patristic witness, the witness of the corporate people of God over the centuries, etc. In the end, if I couldn’t justify my initial reading of the passage along those lines, I would either have to submit my understanding to that of the church or resign my position.

Generally if the disagreement were serious enough that I am the only one that has come to that particular conclusion, I would know there was an issue with my interpretation.

 

[FantomScholar]

I cited my source already…but here it is again.

But perhaps you are right–and the doctrines of the all the Adventist churches are the same. I don’t know where to find their equivalent to our Catechism, to determine what exactly it is they believe.

Another major problem with the source, along the same lines, is that it seems to be taking regional divisions of denominations and counting them separately. For example, I counted about 50 Assembly of God denominations on there; but in cross checking them with their websites, they are all one denomination spread over different areas. The same is true of the Lutheran churches. For example, the International Lutheran Council is made up of 30 churches over several countries - but they are all in fellowship both on doctrine and communion. So, really, they are one denomination. It doesn’t seem to be a fair way to count church bodies.