How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[FantomScholar]

Here is the thread where we proved that that kind of reading of John 6 cannot hold water.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=278473

From page 12 post 168

I am in the process of responding to the points you raised in the post, benedictus. I am sure it will be a pleasure to dialogue with you about it. I am typing it in word and it may cover a couple of posts, if that’s okay. I wish I could do it more piecemeal, but the word limits aren’t conducive to that… I also want to address your reply on the topic of multiple denominations first.

 

[FantomScholar]

Not quite. The Holy Spirit is in action always. First to illumine that Christ is God/Saviour/King (as you have said above to impart the gift of faith in Christ, but then to help them sift through the wrong doctrine. I have found that most protestants are sincere in their search. What I find truly objectionable are the likes of Jack Chick. But then again he perhaps truly believes all the lies he peddles about the Catholic Church. Then again, that he concocts lies himself means that he is under the grip fo the father of lies and not the Holy Spirit.

I agree. I am speaking of here of the Holy Spirit leading into correct doctrine. Where Christ is preached, there is the Holy Spirit. In that sense, I could see a person being led to the Catholic Church if the local parish is focused on preaching Christ. That doesn’t mean that all of the teaching is correct, however. Otherwise, it would lead to the Spirit leading to multiple truths since people are led to Protestant churches, too.

I think there is a danger in anecdotal episodes like that. It’s why I don’t pay much attention to conversion stories (whether Protestant or Catholic). It’s great to hear when a previously dead sinner is brought to life through the sovereign work of the Spirit… Switching churches, not so much.

 

[Nicea325]

How many Catholic church’s have pastors, evangelists?
I quess you agree with the rest of my post.

Agree with with the rest of your posts? In your wildest dreams! Look at what you are asking? And you claim to have been a former Catholic seminary student,yet do not even the know the basics on the duties/functions of the clergy?

Yes each parish has its pastor or pastoral coordinator (layman) who should evangelize his flock as it is part of the church’s mission. And? The difference is that each pastor at his own parish all over the world ALL OBEY and FOLLOW the same doctrines/dogmas of the UNIVERSAL church. They are not out doing their own thing or teaching heterdox doctrines as the thousands of different non-Catholics are known for.

If a Catholic pastor is out teaching his own doctrine conflicting with orthodox doctrines,then he is what the church calls a heretic;hence heresies and schims throughout the ages.

 

[FantomScholar]

I would say yes and no to that. Yes, I think the liberals ought to show their true colours. No because that is breaking up the body of Christ all over again. While they may be dissenting, the message is clear from the magisterium. At the moment, these are like petulant children who stomp and wail. But one day they will grow up and see the wisdom of the parent.

Nevertheless, it’s better they wail than peep. If the church wasn’t noticing their errors, it’s hard to condemn them. The liberal wing of the Catholic church is prevalent here in the States, unfortunately. Especially in the northeast.

Well yes and no. Yes you must use your God given faculties to seek truth, and no because this assumes that the person is capable by himself to determine all truths.

That’s true. My point here, however, is that the individual, even though incapable of determining truth in and of himself, is still making a conscious decision to either accept or reject the teachings of Roman Catholicism. Inasmuch as that is a fallible decision, the supposed infallibility of the church does not give that person any certainty that his decision to accept that infallibility is factual. If the Roman Catholic church is categorically not infallible, then he has made the wrong decision. In order for the supposed certainty that many Roman Catholic apologists play on to work is if it can be proven from outside the claim of the church that the church is, in fact, infallible (the claim of the church cannot be used, otherwise it becomes circular).

That is why relativism is so alive and well in our society today. Everyone determines for himself what is true. Therefore the atheist is as much right about things as the theist, the Christian the same with Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. In fact we end up with variations of truth all resting on what the supreme diety I/Me/Myself has established

The problem with relativism is not that it says that each individual must decide what they believe to be true. That is just simple human experience. The problem with relativism is that it says no matter what a person chooses to believe, it’s always correct, because there is no truth.

But what I said is not a blanket statement about all protestants. That is why I said some are sincerely just ignorant of the truth and fail to grasp it. Others however, do know that what we say make sense, but shore up their defences due to a willful determination to be the magisterium of their belief. Because, the simple truth is, we are not wrangling about Mary, the Eucharist, baptism, etc. etc. The central point of our division is authority.

And sometimes, the magisterium just doesn’t play into their decision at all. The fact of the is, for the most part, outside of apologetic circles, no one thinks twice about the claims of Roman Catholicism or any other church, for that matter. The problem, I think, with what you say here, is that the person is making a conscious effort to resist “the truth,” when that’s simply not the case. Some who are presented with the claims and grasp them just fine and don’t find them convincing at all.

 

[benedictus2]

I am in the process of responding to the points you raised in the post, benedictus. I am sure it will be a pleasure to dialogue with you about it. I am typing it in word and it may cover a couple of posts, if that’s okay. I wish I could do it more piecemeal, but the word limits aren’t conducive to that… I also want to address your reply on the topic of multiple denominations first.

That’s all good. I am about log out as I am not well. I have seen your recent post but have read them yet. I will get back to you on that maybe tomorrow but most likely later in the week as I have a lecture to go to tomorrow.

 

[FantomScholar]

That’s all good. I am about log out as I am not well. I have seen your recent post but have read them yet. I will get back to you on that maybe tomorrow but most likely later in the week as I have a lecture to go to tomorrow.

I hope you feel better, brother. I will definitely pray for you.

I am going to start a new thread on this, actually…If that’s okay with you. I noticed that this thread is now over 1000 posts, so the moderators will probably be closing it.

 

[rev_kevin]

Agree with with the rest of your posts? In your wildest dreams! Look at what you are asking? And you claim to have been a former Catholic seminary student,yet do not even the know the basics on the duties/functions of the clergy?

Yes each parish has its pastor or pastoral coordinator (layman) who should evangelize his flock as it is part of the church’s mission. And? The difference is that each pastor at his own parish all over the world ALL OBEY and FOLLOW the same doctrines/dogmas of the UNIVERSAL church. They are not out doing their own thing or teaching heterdox doctrines as the thousands of different non-Catholics are known for.

If a Catholic pastor is out teaching his own doctrine conflicting with orthodox doctrines,then he is what the church calls a heretic;hence heresies and schims throughout the ages.

I’m sorry I didn’t say how long I went, It was about 6 months when I realized that I really didn’t agree with the CC’s teachings. My understanding of a Catholic Pastor is a Priest and that the use of the word Pastor is not widly used in the Catholic Faith. Say what you will about our teachings it don’t bother me none. Although I disagree with some of the CC teachings I won’t stoop so low as to call the CC’s teachings names, like some say about other denominations.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I’m sorry I didn’t say how long I went, It was about 6 months when I realized that I really didn’t agree with the CC’s teachings. My understanding of a Catholic Pastor is a Priest and that the use of the word Pastor is not widly used in the Catholic Faith. Say what you will about our teachings it don’t bother me none. Although I disagree with some of the CC teachings I won’t stoop so low as to call the CC’s teachings names, like some say about other denominations.

It is common to call the lead Priest at a local parish the “Pastor”.

 

[rev_kevin]

It is common to call the lead Priest at a local parish the “Pastor”.

Thats the first time I have heard that. We always called the lead Priest father. As far as that goes we call all the Priests father. We never used the word Pastor.

 

[brkn1]

He then said that He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again. But… at the cross he does exactly that. Was he lying when he said he will drink of the fruit of the vine…? Perhaps He couldn’t make up his mind whether to drink or not to drink?

I notice that you left out some words in (Luke 22:18): For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, (until the kingdom of God shall come.)

God’s kingdom has not come yet.
Christ also said He would not eat any more of the passover “until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God” which has not happened yet either.

Another problem is the claim that the vinegar was necessarily made from wine. It could have also been made from malted barley or other foods. Romans and Greeks were not unfamiliar with beer in the Mediteranean area. Barley was also a staple of the army.

 

[Esdra]

**

Can you see that we must take the entire Scriptures** into account to see how it is that we are saved? Can you dismiss James saying that works are necessary? Can you dismiss Jesus’ words that “not everyone who says ‘Lord! Lord!’ will be saved”? Can you ignore Jesus’ parable about the sheep and the goats?

I think there is a missunderstanding:

By eating his flesh (John 6)

Yes, dearest PRMerger, we can cross out the above out - because it is NOT necessary to salvation. - See in my posts, and those of RichardKastner, RevKevin (and certainly also FantomScholar) WHY THIS IS SO!

I just meant that Eating His flesh is not necessary for Salvation. The rest is!

Esdra

 

[Cinette]

Yes darling. We’re still all having a marvelous time with this conversation. Have no doubt about it. It is a marvelous conversation in spite of the merry go round every now and again.

I managed to read a few pages and think you are being painstaking in your explanations to rev kevin. I believe that many protestants stubbornly adhere to their position even if it does not make sense. It is almost as though under no condition would they admit that Catholics may be right.

I think this adversity between Catholic and Protestant is not nice. It doesn’t make sense to me at all.

We agree on quite a number of things and to me that they deny the Eucharist by claiming it to be a mere symbol is very sad.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[Esdra]

I managed to read a few pages and think you are being painstaking in your explanations to rev kevin. I believe that many protestants stubbornly adhere to their position even if it does not make sense. It is almost as though under no condition would they admit that Catholics may be right.

I think this adversity between Catholic and Protestant is not nice. It doesn’t make sense to me at all.

We agree on quite a number of things and to me that they deny the Eucharist by claiming it to be a mere symbol is very sad.

Blessings
Cinette

Hi Cinette,

I think it is really not our (the Protestant’s fault) that you always keep on starting topics on which we can’t agree on instead of talking to the number of things we do agree on!

Esdra

 

[larkin31]

Hi Cinette,

I think it is really not our (the Protestant’s fault) that you always keep on starting topics on which we can’t agree on instead of talking to the number of things we do agree on!

Esdra

Indeed.

The opening question is, “How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?”

Answer: many!

 

[benedictus2]

I notice that you left out some words in (Luke 22:18): For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, (until the kingdom of God shall come.)

God’s kingdom has not come yet.

So therefore you think Christ lied at the last supper because He was going to drink of the fruit of the vine and then he did just that the following day?

Another problem is the claim that the vinegar was necessarily made from wine. It could have also been made from malted barley or other foods. Romans and Greeks were not unfamiliar with beer in the Mediteranean area. Barley was also a staple of the army.

It was sour wine. The ones that the Romans used.

 

[benedictus2]

Christ also said He would not eat any more of the passover “until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God” which has not happened yet either.

Luke 22:15-16 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

And He didn’t eat another passover.

Which was not quite what happened with regards the fruit if the vine.

 

[benedictus2]

I managed to read a few pages and think you are being painstaking in your explanations to rev kevin. I believe that many protestants stubbornly adhere to their position even if it does not make sense. It is almost as though under no condition would they admit that Catholics may be right.

I can understand their position though. It must be frightening to find out that everything that you have believed all your life could be wrong.

I have just re-read the conversion stories of Steve Wood and Bob Sungenis. I think it was Steve who wrote that it took him two decades to find Christ’s true Church from going through different denominations.

I like the (name removed by moderator)ut from rev kevin. My only complaint is it comes to something ridiculous at Jesus Himself is the Church because even language wise is just untenable.

 

[Esdra]

Indeed.

The opening question is, “How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?”

Answer: many!

You’re right - and of course people would also why they do so. This is the reason why this thread is already 1000+ posts.

I think we can’t come together on this one… The understanding of John 6 is too divergent between Catholics and Protestants…

Esdra

 

[benedictus2]

I agree. I am speaking of here of the Holy Spirit leading into correct doctrine. Where Christ is preached, there is the Holy Spirit. In that sense, I could see a person being led to the Catholic Church if the local parish is focused on preaching Christ. That doesn’t mean that all of the teaching is correct, however.

We have to differentiate between what the local parish priest is teaching (there are so many who subscribe to new age philosophy these days) and what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as in doctrine.

Otherwise, it would lead to the Spirit leading to multiple truths since people are led to Protestant churches, too.

But then if the doctrine being taught are all different, then clearly they can’t all be led by the Holy Sprit or we have a Holy Spirit who does not know the truth.

I think there is a danger in anecdotal episodes like that. It’s why I don’t pay much attention to conversion stories (whether Protestant or Catholic).

It is different when the anecdotal episode is actually backed by sound research and study, when the person has actually done a thorough study of scripture and church history and looked at doctrinal issues and how they may be resovled.

It’s great to hear when a previously dead sinner is brought to life through the sovereign work of the Spirit…

This reminds me of the conversion story of Steve Wood. He wrote: I took the Prodigal Son’s route through Calvary Chapel. During the late 60’s I was caught up by the rebellious winds of the counter culture." He was into drugs and the new age. And it was through Calvary Chapel that he encountered Jesus Christ.

Switching churches, not so much.

I’d like to write here Steve’s account of the first question that finally led him to the Catholic Church (taken from Surprised by Truth)

The first piece of the puzzle was Christ’s high priestly prayer recorded in John 17:1-26, specifically the phrase " I pray not only for them but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may be one as you, Father are in me and I in you, that they also be in us,…so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one " (v.20-23). In this prayer offered to the Father the night before the crucifixion, Jesus prayed for a visible supernatural unity in his Church. I was struck by the Lord’s strong emphasis on the unity of his Church as illustrated by his repetition of the phrase “so that they may be one”.
The second piece to the puzzle was in James 5:16, “The prayer of the righteous man has great power in its effects.”

Here was the problem: Jesus is perfectly righteous. Why, I asked myself over and over again, was the prayer for the unity of His Church not realized? How could Protestantism be his “church” when Protestant was nothing but disintegration,splintered, not unified, a frightening proliferation of squabbling, competing denominations, many masquerading under the title “non-denominational”. The disunity and doctrinal chaos with Protestantism became deeply unsettling to me. I found I couldn’t recite the Nicene Creed without the words “I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic church” raising afresh this troublesome question. "

 

[benedictus2]

You’re right - and of course people would also why they do so. This is the reason why this thread is already 1000+ posts.

I think we can’t come together on this one… The understanding of John 6 is too divergent between Catholics and Protestants…

Esdra

Hi Esdra,

Before this thread closes I would just like to add something to my reply to you regarding feeling bored at Mass.

This is a little excerpt from the conversion story of Julie Swenson.

*“The Sunday after Doug returned we attended services as usual at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in San Francisco. That particular day, a visiting elder preached a sermon entitled “What is Worship?”. In his sermon he posed the question “Why do you come to church? For fellowship? For edification? To serve?” His message was if you come for any other reason than the worship of God, you are coming for the wrong reason”.

I listened in rapt attention as he proceeded to recount the Bible’s descriptions of the worship that is taking place around the throne of God - myriads of angels and saints bowing in unending adoration, worshipping and praising the Lord - crying out “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God almighty.” He described the censers and incense being offered with the prayers of the saints at the foot of the Lord’s golden altar."*

This by the way is how Scott Hahn, a presbyterian who converted to Catholicism finally made sense of the book of Revelations. For he found that the key to the book of Revelations describes the Mass. That is why at the Mass, we participate in the heavenly liturgy that is described in the book. And this is why the Fathers as Scott Hahn found out has always maintained that the mass is heaven on earth.

The mass therefore goes beyond earthly worship.

Peace and joy of Christ,

Cory