How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[FantomScholar]

We have to differentiate between what the local parish priest is teaching (there are so many who subscribe to new age philosophy these days) and what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as in doctrine.

But then if the doctrine being taught are all different, then clearly they can’t all be led by the Holy Sprit or we have a Holy Spirit who does not know the truth.

I agree.

It is different when the anecdotal episode is actually backed by sound research and study, when the person has actually done a thorough study of scripture and church history and looked at doctrinal issues and how they may be resovled.

Agreed. However, my point here is not that Catholics do not do this when they decided to convert to Roman Catholicism. My initial comments on it were in relation to the infallibility of the church providing doctrinal certainty to the individual Christian. My response is that it doesn’t, mainly because one must still use fallible means, just like any Protestant, in order to determine that Rome is infallible. All of the methods you mention are fine. However, they are still, with the exception of Scripture, fallible resources. Therefore, the doctrinal certainty that many Catholic apologists claim that the church provides is only true if you ignore the fact that the individual’s certainty that Rome is infallible is based on a fallible certainty.

This can be seen clearly in the mutually competing claims by Rome and Orthodoxy to being the infallible, one true church that Christ established. How does the individual infallibly decide which one is actually it?

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Cinette,

I think it is really not our (the Protestant’s fault) that you always keep on starting topics on which we can’t agree on instead of talking to the number of things we do agree on!

Esdra

I think the point of bringing up topics that we do not agree on is so that we can ferret out the truth on these topics. If you say something is black and I say it is white, we can’t both be right. One of us has to be wrong.

It is the same way with doctrine. We are not merely talking about preferences which are subjective ( for example I like pink you like blue). There is no right or wrong about these points of view.

But the things we do disagree on, they have a right or wrong about it so it should be discussed so that we can discern what is true.

I think what Cinnette is trying to get at is when something has been refuted many times over and proved false and over and over again, the same arguments are raised without actually countering the refutation, then there is something wrong there. For that shows that there really is no desire for the truth on the part of that person.

That then becomes a case of “This is what I believe, right, wrong or indifferent and that’s that”. But if you seriously seek truth, then you cannot have that attitude, for by having that attitude, you are blocking the action of the Holy Spirit who wants to guide you into truth.

 

[benedictus2]

I agree.
Agreed. However, my point here is not that Catholics do not do this when they decided to convert to Roman Catholicism. My initial comments on it were in relation to the infallibility of the church providing doctrinal certainty to the individual Christian. My response is that it doesn’t, mainly because one must still use fallible means, just like any Protestant, in order to determine that Rome is infallible. All of the methods you mention are fine. However, they are still, with the exception of Scripture, fallible resources.

But here we come to the question of how do we know that the scripture is infallible.

I think the canon is something that most protestants have not really given much thought to. How did we come up with the canon.

If one accepts that the canon of Scripture is infallible, then one automatically accepts the infallibility of the Catholic Church for it is the Church that determined the canon.

Some people try to wriggle out of this quandary by proposing the “fallible canon” theory which in itself is illogical. I think Sproul was one its proponents saying that the bible is a fallible collection of infallible books. How can we be certain that the books are infallible if the canon is fallible?

Therefore, the doctrinal certainty that many Catholic apologists claim that the church provides is only true if you ignore the fact that the individual’s certainty that Rome is infallible is based on a fallible certainty.

Well not so if we, as you have stated above, believe that the Bible is inerrant. If the Bible is inerrant then what Christ said about His Church is true, that she will be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit. If this is true about the guidance given to the Bible, then it stands to reason that we must accept that the promise is kept through out the life of the Church here on earth.

Once you start designating timelines for when the Church was and was not fallible, you fall in a slippery slope for how do you determine that. The only way we can say with certainty that the canon is inerrant is if we hold that at all times the Church has been preserved from error.
This can be seen clearly in the mutually competing claims by Rome and Orthodoxy to being the infallible, one true church that Christ established. How does the individual infallibly decide which one is actually it?
We go back to history. Investigate the cause of the schism.
Incidentally, here is a link to a timeline of the East - West Schism. davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/timeline_history_of_catholic_orthodox_relations.htm
Doctrinally, there is not much difference between the east and the west.

Also, if you look at the structure, Eastern Orthodoxy is more geared towards a nationalisitic Church, hardly the universal church that Christ has in mind. But the beliefs are the same with regards the sacraments, Mary, and salvation.

Pope John Paul II called the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church as the two lungs breathing together.

 

[benedictus2]

I hope you feel better, brother. I will definitely pray for you.

Thank you. I need it as I need to be able to get back to work tomorrow. I have been away for two days. BTW, it is sister.

I am going to start a new thread on this, actually…If that’s okay with you. I noticed that this thread is now over 1000 posts, so the moderators will probably be closing it.

Now I need to get back to sleep. I logged in to check only if there have been other posts but could not resist posting.

God bless and thanks again for your prayers.

 

[Cinette]

Hi Cinette,

I think it is really not our (the Protestant’s fault) that you always keep on starting topics on which we can’t agree on instead of talking to the number of things we do agree on!

Esdra

*That doesn’t make sense Esdra!!

It is a lot more fun to debate on things we differ - I enjoy it more. Think about it!

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[Esdra]

That then becomes a case of “This is what I believe, right, wrong or indifferent and that’s that”. But if you seriously seek truth, then you cannot have that attitude, for by having that attitude, you are blocking the action of the Holy Spirit who wants to guide you into truth.

Hi

I often reread my posts when I don’t immediately get an answer (for most here are Americans and I normally write, when they are asleep! )

Iam ofen marveling about what have I written here - and if you believe me or not - these are not my words, but those of the Holy Spirit - I am sure.

I am only a failable Human… Just an ordinary person that reads in the Holy Bible and loves his Savior Christ Jesus.

On Sunday, Pentecost, I read in my Guide to the Study the Holy Bible (It’s called "Life is more. Impulses for every Day [in German: Leben ist mehr. Impulse für jeden Tag]:
“What is truth?”
The answer was:

First of all was the Daily Bible Verse: John 16:13

13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

Then there was a text which you could summerize like this:
“Through God’s Holy Ghost every human can get to know the whole truth. What to do now? Everybody who accepted Jesus as His Saviour gets the Ghost of our Lord. If we read, praying, in His Word, we will get to know His thoughts piece for piece - and get to know the “Word of Truth”. God’s Ghost also helps us to live according to His word and will in our daily lives!”

Then there are more Bible Verses like Psalm 119:160, John 1:17, John 14:6 and finally Acts 2.

Finally there is the Daily Bible Reading: John 16:5-15

** 5** "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’

** 6** "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
**
7 **"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

** 8** "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

** 9** concerning sin, (N)because they do not believe in Me;
**
10** and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

** 11** and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

** 12 **"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
**
13 **"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

** 14** "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

** 15 **All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

Isn’t that wonderful? All I can say is “AMEN”.

To your other post written to me:

This might be that worship in heaven is like mass. - But we are humans living on earth. We can’t do what the angels in heaven above do…
I mean, although some Protestant Services are not that gloryful than mass, it is also a time when we come together to praise the Most High Lord. (And it’s not about ourselves - as you keep saying. - This is just a positive side-effect that I am feeling comfortable in Protestant worship but don’t do so in mass!)

We Protestants love our Lord at least the same than you Catholics do! We praise Him for what He did for us and that we can have again a relationship to Him, because we are saved through His death on the Cross! - We hear His word and once a month we celebrate the Last Supper in remembrance to what He did for us on the Cross - as He had told us to do!

So, to conclude, I see no problem why Protestants keep being accused here that they are sects and don’t have the full truth and that they are not founded by Christ Jesus Himself…
It makes me also kind of sad. We all believe in the same Lord, we all love Him equally - and what we are arguing here are about are really peanuts!! (I know, you won’t agree here, benedictus…)

I mean it was stated once here that this arguing is good for people coming in and searching. Actually, I think this is NOT GOOD. They see that we are only quarreling here instead of standing together as ONE Christianity, loving each other (as the Romans said about the Ancient Christians: “Have a look, how they love each other!”). - And they will turn away searching for a Hindu sect, or what ever else, because they see that Christians don’t behave than they should!

God bless you,
Esdra

 

[FantomScholar]

Thank you. I need it as I need to be able to get back to work tomorrow. I have been away for two days. BTW, it is sister.
Now I need to get back to sleep. I logged in to check only if there have been other posts but could not resist posting.

Mea culpa

God bless and thanks again for your prayers.

Anytime. Hope you have a good rest. I look forward to your replies on the John 6 text. I listed it under this same thread title with the number 2 afterword.

 

[larkin31]

…I mean it was stated once here that this arguing is good for people coming in and searching. Actually, I think this is NOT GOOD. They see that we are only quarreling here instead of standing together as ONE Christianity, loving each other (as the Romans said about the Ancient Christians: “Have a look, how they love each other!”). - And they will turn away searching for a Hindu sect, or what ever else, because they see that Christians don’t behave than they should!

God bless you,
Esdra

It’s the tone of a position that either attracts or repels most people. Love attracts; anger repels. Respect attracts; disrespect repels. Humility attracts; arrogance repels.

for a great thread starter on this topic, check out this link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6673694#post6673694

 

[Cinette]

Hi

I often reread my posts when I don’t immediately get an answer (for most here are Americans and I normally write, when they are asleep! )

Iam ofen marveling about what have I written here - and if you believe me or not - these are not my words, but those of the Holy Spirit - I am sure.

I am only a failable Human… Just an ordinary person that reads in the Holy Bible and loves his Savior Christ Jesus.

On Sunday, Pentecost, I read in my Guide to the Study the Holy Bible (It’s called "Life is more. Impulses for every Day [in German: Leben ist mehr. Impulse für jeden Tag]:
“What is truth?”
The answer was:

First of all was the Daily Bible Verse: John 16:13

13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

Then there was a text which you could summerize like this:
“Through God’s Holy Ghost every human can get to know the whole truth. What to do now? Everybody who accepted Jesus as His Saviour gets the Ghost of our Lord. If we read, praying, in His Word, we will get to know His thoughts piece for piece - and get to know the “Word of Truth”. God’s Ghost also helps us to live according to His word and will in our daily lives!”

Then there are more Bible Verses like Psalm 119:160, John 1:17, John 14:6 and finally Acts 2.

Finally there is the Daily Bible Reading: John 16:5-15

** 5** "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’

** 6** "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
**
7 **"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

** 8** "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

** 9** concerning sin, (N)because they do not believe in Me;
**
10** and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

** 11** and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

** 12 **"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
**
13 **"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

** 14** "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

** 15 **All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."

Isn’t that wonderful? All I can say is “AMEN”.

To your other post written to me:

This might be that worship in heaven is like mass. - But we are humans living on earth. We can’t do what the angels in heaven above do…
I mean, although some Protestant Services are not that gloryful than mass, it is also a time when we come together to praise the Most High Lord. (And it’s not about ourselves - as you keep saying. - This is just a positive side-effect that I am feeling comfortable in Protestant worship but don’t do so in mass!)

We Protestants love our Lord at least the same than you Catholics do! We praise Him for what He did for us and that we can have again a relationship to Him, because we are saved through His death on the Cross! - We hear His word and once a month we celebrate the Last Supper in remembrance to what He did for us on the Cross - as He had told us to do!

So, to conclude, I see no problem why Protestants keep being accused here that they are sects and don’t have the full truth and that they are not founded by Christ Jesus Himself…
It makes me also kind of sad. We all believe in the same Lord, we all love Him equally - and what we are arguing here are about are really peanuts!! (I know, you won’t agree here, benedictus…)

I mean it was stated once here that this arguing is good for people coming in and searching. Actually, I think this is NOT GOOD. They see that we are only quarreling here instead of standing together as ONE Christianity, loving each other (as the Romans said about the Ancient Christians: “Have a look, how they love each other!”). - And they will turn away searching for a Hindu sect, or what ever else, because they see that Christians don’t behave than they should!

God bless you,
Esdra

*Esdra I can see that you love the Lord with all your heart and are hungry and thirsty for a close relationship with Him. That is wonderful especially for one young like yourself.

I have to disagree with you about your accusation of “arguing” and “quarreling”. There are a number of people on this thread who put forward their views honestly (from Protestant and Catholic belief) and they were not quarreling I can assure you. Benedictus has given a thorough analysis of John 6 and analysed the significance of the 4 cups. I am afraid that you are not one to pay too much attention which is a pity. Benedictus posted some very good posts and went into detail - she deserves attention.

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[brkn1]

So therefore you think Christ lied at the last supper because He was going to drink of the fruit of the vine and then he did just that the following day?

It was sour wine. The ones that the Romans used.

Let’s agree that the vinegar was a likely product of the vine, instead of possibly vinegar from fermented barley or such. Jesus did refuse the wine mixed with myrrh at the beginning although He later drank of vinegar as was prophesized.
It is still obvious that Jesus was not speaking about drinking vinegar at the future wedding feast when the kingdom of God has finally come. Jesus had to be referring only to the good wine that He was drinking at the Lord’s Supper when He said “fruit of the vine”. To say Jesus lied if He drank some “other form of wine” is to continue in an absurd literalism on everything Jesus said.
I notice that you still ignore the other part of Jesus’ saying about “until the kingdom of God shall come”. It has not come yet, so how does that fit into your explanation of what happened?

 

[shawn38]

Dear Shawn,

I am not a “Seder meal” expert, but I do believe you are in error. The 3rd cup is the Cup of Blessing; the 4th cup was taken while on the cross many scholars believe; however scripture itself leaves some uncertainty here.!

Both titles are used for the third cup for the blessing was the redemption.

The third cup was the cup of blessing in which Jesus took and gave thanks and gave to His disciples with the command to drink and pass it on, “This is My blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. DO THIS in memory of Me.”

3rd Cup
Matt 26:36…Gethsemane…39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Are you talking the first Passover, annual Passover before the temple was destroyed, or after? Today they do not sacrifice a lamb, but use a shank bone.

[/QUOTE]

 

[shawn38]

First:

It if finished cannot refer to the work of redemption because the work of redemption is not finished until Christ rises from the dead. As I have said before, if Christ had not risen, then redemption would not have been accompolished. We would have be trapped in the sadness of Good Friday without experiencing the joy of Easter.]

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

What was the price?
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
1 Ptr 1:For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

  If you look at the last supper narrative, Jesus breaks the bread and offers it to his apostles. Notice how this corresponds to eating of the meal prior to the drinking of the third cup.

benedictus2:

He then said that He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again. But… at the cross he does exactly that. Was he lying when he said he will drink of the fruit of the vine…? Perhaps He couldn’t make up his mind whether to drink or not to drink?

And interestingly enough, after He drinks the wine He says “It is finished”. Now it can’t be redemption that is finished and I have given you the reason for that above.

Other translations have this as “It is consumed”. Can you see here the link to the cup of consummation?

So what is finished, consumed, accomplished? The only answer that truly makes sense is the Passover of the Old covenant.

And this excerpt from the above webpage will give you a good explanation:

And you are right about the 3rd cup being the cup of redemption. That is why when Jesus instituted the Eucharist he said, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant which will be shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.

Good. I’m glad we agree on this. However, where does it ever say that Jesus drank of this cup? It doesn’t. However the drinking is alluded to when He’s praying in the garden.

I comment more on this shortly after I understand your position more on the 4th cup.

When was Jesus to drink the 4th cup? I believe that the clue to this answer is found in Jn 19:28-30:

[Jn 19:28-30]After this, Jesus knew that everything had now been completed and, so that the scripture should be completely fulfilled, he said: I am thirsty. 29A jar full of sour wine stood there; so, putting a sponge soaked in the wine on a hyssop stick, they held it up to his mouth.30After Jesus had taken the wine he said, ‘It is fulfilled’; and bowing his head he gave up his spirit.

Before we can go further, we have to address “not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God”. Your position would have to mean that the day Christ was crucified is the day when he drinks it anew in the kingdom of God. Correct? Christ obviously did not ascend on that day, but descended into the prison and preach to the captives until the resurrection, three days later. Could you clarify this for me.

Thanks
.
​

​

 

[KathleenGee]

There is also Christ saying that the kingdom of God is among us…

He has said similar remarks in different contexts and settings.

You have to understand the context in light of the Apostles and how they founded, who they chose as their successors…

The Church is not contradicting Scripture…but there is a culture of church and people that look at the Bible literally without the context of history miss out…

Such as how we call our priests, ‘Father’. We are all aware of the passage of Christ when He says dare not call anyone father…you have to look at the context.

The believers came in time to address their priests as ‘fathers’ because they provide us with the Bread of Life and the sacraments. It is more an endearment. Jesus is talking more about our attachments…and when our faith is mature, the Heavenly Father takes the place of our earthly fathers. And it is also an endearment considering that the Jews did not address the Heavenly Father as such. Christ taught us the Our Father, a very different yet beautiful and filial prayer that worked to restore and renew our relationship with God the Creator…through Christ God became our Father.

 

[benedictus2]

You’re right - and of course people would also why they do so. This is the reason why this thread is already 1000+ posts.

I think we can’t come together on this one… The understanding of John 6 is too divergent between Catholics and Protestants…

Esdra

That is true. Protestant and Catholic doctrine on this won’t, can’t come together.

But… people can, once they eschew the other belief.

And this has happened many times, once they start truly allowing the Holy Spirit to guide their reason.

Those who finally converted or returned to the Catholic Church cite this as one of the main factor for converting.

And here is one reason which I hope you will really think about.

For 1500 years the Church believed what we believe. Then comes Calvin and Zwingli and all of a sudden some no longer believe this.

Tell me, do you think that people who come 1500 years later understand more this doctrine than the millions who have come before them?

Do you really think, that Chris,t after ascending to heaven would leave His followers rudderless inspite of promising them the Holy Spirit?

Do you really think that Christ abandoned them for that length of time? 1500 years?

Because really, when you maintain that what you believe is the truth on this matter, that, is exactly what you are claiming.

 

[benedictus2]

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

What was the price?
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
1 Ptr 1:For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
Good. I’m glad we agree on this. However, where does it ever say that Jesus drank of this cup? It doesn’t. However the drinking is alluded to when He’s praying in the garden.

I comment more on this shortly after I understand your position more on the 4th cup.

Before we can go further, we have to address “not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God”. Your position would have to mean that the day Christ was crucified is the day when he drinks it anew in the kingdom of God. Correct? Christ obviously did not ascend on that day, but descended into the prison and preach to the captives until the resurrection, three days later. Could you clarify this for me.

Thanks
.

I will reply to this later in the day as I am leaving for work.

 

[KathleenGee]

I also think it most reasonable for people to consider the effects of fractured Christianity and how Benedictus calls on reason to reflect on the fact that Christianity has believed in the Divine Presence, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Eucharist for 1,500 years.

Again, we can’t take Scripture passages and just look at them against each other…we have to look at how the Apostles laid down the foundation and groundwork of the church, and to acknowledge that the Church is not defying Scripture but looking at Scripture from another angle—the practice and devotions of believers down through time…who also had continued difficulties in practicing their faith.

It seems either persecutions or social upheaval and invasions were almost constant facts of daily life. There always followed an embellishment of gratitude for saving the people from harm, or being free of destructive forces, that in turn led to particular devotions and practices created by local churches, devotions that you can find today that go back hundreds of years. They are continued forms of thanks for saving the practices of faith and religion.

 

[larkin31]

That is true. Protestant and Catholic doctrine on this won’t, can’t come together.

But… people can, once they eschew the other belief.

And this has happened many times, once they start truly allowing the Holy Spirit to guide their reason.

Those who finally converted or returned to the Catholic Church cite this as one of the main factor for converting.

And here is one reason which I hope you will really think about.

For 1500 years the Church believed what we believe. Then comes Calvin and Zwingli and all of a sudden some no longer believe this.

Tell me, do you think that people who come 1500 years later understand more this doctrine than the millions who have come before them?

Do you really think, that Chris,t after ascending to heaven would leave His followers rudderless inspite of promising them the Holy Spirit?

Do you really think that Christ abandoned them for that length of time? 1500 years?

Because really, when you maintain that what you believe is the truth on this matter, that, is exactly what you are claiming.

Well, your argument simply is that this group of believers can’t be wrong for that long. I see no reason why believers can’t be wrong for several millenia. Or more. It’s happened with other faiths, right? Why do you consider the RCC exempt from the mistakes that other believers have made? It’s simply your faith that exempts them, no? Judaism is older than Christianity. Are Jews also right, or even more right, because they have believed such for so long?

 

[shawn38]

That is true. Protestant and Catholic doctrine on this won’t, can’t come together…

For 1500 years the Church believed what we believe. Then comes Calvin and Zwingli and all of a sudden some no longer believe this.

Tell me, do you think that people who come 1500 years later understand more this doctrine than the millions who have come before them?

Do you really think, that Chris,t after ascending to heaven would leave His followers rudderless inspite of promising them the Holy Spirit?

Do you really think that Christ abandoned them for that length of time? 1500 years?

How long have the Jews been wrong? 2000 years! The Jews were God’s chosen people, yet they still await the Messiah.

 

[Cinette]

*Do you think Jesus made a mistake when he chose Judas? Remember also the wheat and the tares - Jesus told the labourers to leave the weeds until the harvest.

The Church has always fought heresay - there have always been heretics and Judases.

When Jesus told the Apostles to go and spread the good news all the Apostles had were the teachings of Jesus during the three years they spent together…and they had the Holy spirit (I will send the Holy Spirit - Pentecost - to guide you into all truth). The Apostles spread out and Paul kept in touch with them (his letters took time to reach them - no email in those days!)

As the Faith spread and the Apostles passed on their power (Apostolic succession) the writings of the early Church Fathers were later compiled into the canon (inspiration of the Holy Spirit). The Bible/Scriptures emerged from the early Oral teachings (Tradition). The printing press was only invented well over 1000 years later. During all that time the Church survived and developed with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Christian Faith is the fulfillment of the Jewish Faith .

We do not believe that for the first 1500 years before Luther and the other “Reformers” God had abandoned His Church which Jesus founded - that the Holy Spirit only came along when Luther rebelled!!! This is not reasonable or true. It is absurd to think this.

This is just a quick summary - I am off to Mass and must get ready.

blessings
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Well, your argument simply is that this group of believers can’t be wrong for that long. I see no reason why believers can’t be wrong for several millenia. Or more. It’s happened with other faiths, right? Why do you consider the RCC exempt from the mistakes that other believers have made? It’s simply your faith that exempts them, no? Judaism is older than Christianity. Are Jews also right, or even more right, because they have believed such for so long?

*You are saying that the Holy Spirit has been wrong for 1500 years!!! People in the Church have made mistake,(even Popes) and sinned but when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals, of Doctrine, of teaching the Church is protected by the Spirit. Jesus needed to protect His Church - we couldn’t do it without His help.

Christianity is the fulfillment of the Jewish Faith. Don’t you believe Jesus was the Messiah? Of course you do. Then, you should study the history of the Church and you will understand.*

Blessings
Cinette