How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[PRmerger]

To be honest, I have not really given that much thought.

Having said that though, this is my musing on it.

The kingdom of God here does not necessarily force an eschatological reading.

Indeed. The kingdom of God comes to earth at each and every Mass that is celebrated. That is what the book of Revelations is detailing.

 

[Esdra]

I am sorry to have to cut your post just to this section but it is very late and there are still other posts I have yet to reply to.

I have only one answer to this. Because the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. The protestant denominations all came only after 1500 years of Christianity. Once cut off, these initial branches kept dividing and dividing and dividing. The further down the line one’s denomination is, the further one gets from the truth.

I don’t like that statement that the RCC has the fulness of truth. For me it sounds as if the RCC would be the only true church, which she apparently isn’t. Have a look at the Oriential Orthodox Churches. They are mostly older than the RCC. You keep saying that a church “is more true” when it is older because it has the older scriptures… You know what I am trying to say?

But… I do believe that the Holy Spirit is operative in your lives but not in your doctrines. God will not abandon His creation just because of the rebellious pride of the reformers.

Our doctrine ISN’T that divergent than the RCC’s. It is just another glance at something…

As a matter of fact, I truly have a great appreciation for the protestants, more so now since I have realized how greatly new age belief has encroached into our parishes. I love the fact that a lot of Protestants are completely focused on Jesus Christ unlike some of the Catholics I know.

I am happy to hear that. Although I haven’t realised so far that Catholic parishes are into New Age. At least this is not the case in Austria, Europe. Maybe it’s different in the US - I don’t know.

But that is the consequence of not being one Body together. That is the result of the breaking of the Body of Christ. And the sad reality is, that as lone as hold different doctrines, then we cannot be one, because what will unify us will be our belief. That is why you are one with your immediate baptist community but you are not one with all the other protestant denominations.

**Actually I am one with EVERY Church that accepts Christ Jesus as it’s Saviour and believes in Trinity and have Christ as head of their Church. So I am one with the Anglicans, the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Mennonites and most other protestant denominations (also the Pentecostal Churches!) **

WE ARE ONE BODY. ALL who believe in Christ Jesus are ONE Body.

I have said this before, and I still maintain this to be true. We will never be one unless every one becomes Catholic.

I think this will never happen. What could happen, however is that alle become “Christians” - without a unifying doctrine. A huge Church with a lot of different types of services, worship etc. Some will honour Mary and the Saints - the others Jesus alone. This is the only chance, in my eyes, that we will become ONE Christianity!

But do I mean that we cannot even fellowship? Does that mean we must hate each other? Well no. I greatly value your (name removed by moderator)ut and I highly appreciate more than you can ever know how much you love our Lord and how much you wish we are all one.

For me it is very important that the person must love our Lord, unequivocally as the one True God in the Trinity and no other.

I can agree on that.

It is not for me to say that you should be a Catholic. God has allowed you to drift away from His Church. If He wants to, He can zap you just like that and infuse you with knowledge of the Catholic mysteries in the same way He did Fr Donald Calloway or Alphonse Ratisbone. But He did not do that.

All that I am here to do is to explain to you why I believe with my whole heart that you are wrong about the Catholic Church and use whatever God given talent I may have for that end.:hug1:

**Well this is the point we can’t agree on! For me the RCC isn’t the one and true church. Most other (who accept the Doctrine of “mere **Christianity”) are equally true in my opinion. ****

:hug1:

Esdra

 

[PRmerger]

Peter’s proclamation that Christ is the Messiah? Obviously the gates of hell will never prevail against that.

So you do believe then that Jesus started a church and then left it to flounder with thousands of different interpretations?

No one really knows if baptism is an ordinance or a sacrament? If the Lord’s day should be celebrated on Saturday or Sunday? If we die or just go to “soul sleep”? If God’s holy name is Jehovah or Adonai? If women are allowed to preach or not?

Apparently satan prevailed against Peter leading him to deny Christ three times. Why would Christ want to build His church upon that?

Yes, indeed. Why would Jesus have chosen 12 sinful men to go an preach his gospel?

 

[benedictus2]

So, in your systemology, when 2 Christians who both claiming to be inspired by the HS come to different understandings of Scripture, how does one determine whose interpretation is correct?
Toss a coin ?

 

[benedictus2]

Peter’s proclamation that Christ is the Messiah? Obviously the gates of hell will never prevail against that.

Well that is not what Jesus referred to when He said the gates of hell will not prevail.

Apparently satan prevailed against Peter leading him to deny Christ three times. Why would Christ want to build His church upon that?

Well no, because Jesus had not made Him rock then yet.

Jesus said He WILL build His Church. Not yet.

 

[benedictus2]

To the protestants I have debated here on this thread.

I would like to make an offer.

I will send you a book called Surprised by Truth if you pm me your address or some address that I could send to.

This is a collection of testimonies by Protestants of different denominations (also one Atheist Jew) who have been indeed Surprised by Truth and consequently made their way or returned to the Catholic Church.

The arguments you have put here are exactly what they have agonized over. Some of them are even extremely anti-Catholic. A few of them are pastors but all are quite learned and steeped in Biblical studies. One cannot say that they left because they had no clue as to their faith.

They go into theology and also just a really touching baring of their souls in their journey of faith.

So there’s the offer. It will cost me but I am willing to do it.

Will you take the challenge?

There’s also a condition. That once you’ve read it, you will pass it on.

 

[Cinette]

The Holy Spirit can’t be be wrong for He is the Spirit of Truth. This does not mean that man, believing he’s being guided by the Holy Spirit, is correct. Remember the devil discuises himself as an angel of light.

The Church, my friend, The Church!!!

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church (the teaching body) into all truth. It would not make sense for Jesus to found a Church and then not protect it from teaching error.

WE may sin but the Church will not lie!!!

Hey, its simple!

Blessings
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Peter’s proclamation that Christ is the Messiah? Obviously the gates of hell will never prevail against that.

Apparently satan prevailed against Peter leading him to deny Christ three times. Why would Christ want to build His church upon that?

*Good question shawn - exactly, why would Jesus choose Peter who denied Him three times? And don’t forget that it was not long before that that Jesus revealed His divinity to Peter at the Transfiguration?

Why does God forgive sin? Why is God merciful? Why are we instructed to love? Why must we forgive? Why should we praise God? Why must we obey God? Why? Why? Why?

The Faith is full of mysteries my friend. We must be grateful that we have a God who is prepared to suffer for us. We must be grateful that God is merciful. We must be grateful for the promise of eternal life!

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[larkin31]

Yes, I would like to piggy back on this question.

Larkin, what do you mean when you say it was inspired but not inerrant?

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can inspire a person into error?

No. I am not commenting on what God CAN or CANNOT do. I am commenting on what HAPPENS in the Bible. There is no group of people, religious or otherwise, in the Bible who do not err. I see no logical reason that this pattern would end with the establishment of the Church on a person(s) no less fallible than those who err through the rest of the Bible. This is not a comment on what a God can or cannot do (that is pure speculation), but rather a summary of what, according to the biblical text, we have a record of people and groups actually doing. They ALL err, and the Bible repeatedly points out their errors, and this is all, supposedly, under the eye of God. Infallibility is a non-Biblical, theologically unnecessary belief in any and all connections to human endeavors. And ALL dogma is the result of human endeavors.

 

[larkin31]

To the protestants I have debated here on this thread.

I would like to make an offer.

I will send you a book called Surprised by Truth if you pm me your address or some address that I could send to.

This is a collection of testimonies by Protestants of different denominations (also one Atheist Jew) who have been indeed Surprised by Truth and consequently made their way or returned to the Catholic Church.

The arguments you have put here are exactly what they have agonized over. Some of them are even extremely anti-Catholic. A few of them are pastors but all are quite learned and steeped in Biblical studies. One cannot say that they left because they had no clue as to their faith.

They go into theology and also just a really touching baring of their souls in their journey of faith.

So there’s the offer. It will cost me but I am willing to do it.

Will you take the challenge?

There’s also a condition. That once you’ve read it, you will pass it on.

Why don’t you summarize or quote some key passages?

 

[PRmerger]

No. I am not commenting on what God CAN or CANNOT do. I am commenting on what HAPPENS in the Bible. There is no group of people, religious or otherwise, in the Bible who do not err. I see no logical reason that this pattern would end with the establishment of the Church on a person(s) no less fallible than those who err through the rest of the Bible. This is not a comment on what a God can or cannot do (that is pure speculation), but rather a summary of what, according to the biblical text, we have a record of people and groups actually doing. They ALL err, and the Bible repeatedly points out their errors, and this is all, supposedly, under the eye of God. Infallibility is a non-Biblical, theologically unnecessary belief in any and all connections to human endeavors. And ALL dogma is the result of human endeavors.

So what do you mean by saying the folks who wrote the gospels were “inspired”?

And how do you know that Jesus was inerrant?

My Protestant church (I was raised by a Protestant minister step-father) never claimed the Bible to be inerrant. Oh gosh, no. So your generalizations about Protestant belief is incorrect.** Jesus was inerrant, **but the folks who wrote the gospels and other books of the OT and NT were not inerrant in doing so. Inspired, yes. Inerrant, no.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Protestants greatest error on the level of every day life is that they do not value the unity of being one in Christ…,at the banquet table.

 

[shawn38]

So, in your systemology, when 2 Christians who both claiming to be inspired by the HS come to different understandings of Scripture, how does one determine whose interpretation is correct?

What does the scripture say?
1 Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Also, apply the test of Scripture just as the Bereans did.

 

[PRmerger]

What does the scripture say?
1 Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Also, apply the test of Scripture just as the Bereans did.

Ok. So both Christians do that and conclude: my interpretation is correct.

Now what?

 

[Nicea325]

What does the scripture say?
1 Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Also, apply the test of Scripture just as the Bereans did.

If that is the case,then which church out of thousands truly has the correct interpretation? If the source of the issue stems from different interpretations of scripture,then how can scripture be the source of remedy?

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

The Protestants greatest error on the level of every day life is that they do not value the unity of being one in Christ…,at the banquet table.

I totally agree… The body of Christ is the single most important aspect of being ONE with Christ there is…And yet i’ll hear how some have a personal relationship with Christ without it.

Matthew

 

[larkin31]

If that is the case,then which church out of thousands truly has the correct interpretation?

Maybe none!

 

[KathleenGee]

Shawn,

Jesus’ continual prayer was that we would be one…you are contradicting Scripture and 1500 years of Christian practice…

The Lord has also called us to peace with His Word, not agitation and disputes.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe none!

Then we are in deep do-do. :sad_yes:

 

[benedictus2]

We agree then that just because a belief is long standing doesn’t mean it’s correct.

Aah but that is not what I said.

Also, while the Jews are wrong about the Messiah for 2000 years, yes they are still the chosen people. It was God’s will that the Messiah who will save not just the nation Israel will come from this people and God never takes back a promise. This is why we cannot understand Jesus without understanding His jewishness.