How many of us will end up in hell?

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What is God asking of us here? He expects us to attend mass for about 54 hours a year (every Sunday + 2 days of obligation in Canada). There are about 8,760 hours in a year, let’s say 6,000 waking hours (which hopefully includes the time at mass), so we’re talking about less than 1%. Similarly, God gave Adam & Eve everything (including everlasting life) and asked for very little. Look at what happened.

I’m inclined to think that those who pay some attention to their spiritual health will be saved. As you point out, not only most people but a mjaority of Catholics neglect their spiritual health. IIf you attend mass regularly and make a sincere (therefore valid) confession once a year, you’re doing the minimum. And that’s a lot more than most. So if you care about being saved, the Church offers you a certain way of being saved. It isn’t much but most don’t want to do even that.
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FuzzyBunny116:
What about those who miss Mass? The majority of Catholics neglect going to Mass, and by those numbers alone, it seems like the majority of we Catholics are in big trouble. I mean, missng Mass once without a good exscuse is a mortal sin! I certainly don’t think it seems right for someone to burn in unending torment because they didn’t go to a few Masses.😦
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FuzzyBunny116:
What about those who miss Mass? The majority of Catholics neglect going to Mass, and by those numbers alone, it seems like the majority of we Catholics are in big trouble. I mean, missng Mass once without a good exscuse is a mortal sin! I certainly don’t think it seems right for someone to burn in unending torment because they didn’t go to a few Masses.😦
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What bothers me, is that terrorism, missing Mass & not fasting on this day or that are all mortal sins - as if they were all morally equivalent. I think that killing 30 people with a bomb is not morally equivalent to eating meat of Friday. To threaten people with Hell for eating a steak is absurd; spying for a foreign power, treason & torture aren’t morally equal to each other in the abstract - but neither are they, in the abstract, equivalent to eating a steak. Considering that the Church has sanctioned torture in the past, there is a genuine ethical problem here, which is, in part, that of how to avoid confusing relatively trivial things with more important ones.​

The church’s law of fasting and abstinence, because it is able to change - eating eggs in Lent used to be forbidden as well, for example - leads to the conclusion that eating item and so-and-so can be damnable one day, or in one Rite of the Church: and be not damnable the next, when a change of the law comes into force. And lumping breaches of the law of fasting & abstinence with things that are sinful of their very nature, risks leading people to lump together Church-made laws & God-made laws. If the former can change, even though breaking them leads to Hell - maybe God-made laws which have the same penalty attached are equally changeable. Most of us are not moral theologians, after all.

So if Catholics are rather blase about going to Hell for using contraception, & don’t stay away from Communion - people have often commented on the frequency of communion and of the use of contraception, and got in a lather about it - it may well be the fault of the teaching Church for failing to distinguish between changeable laws and unchangeable ones, and saying that both have the same penalties attached. That is what comes of making a cult of obedience, and of legalism: people fail to distinguish between really serious sins, and comparatively trivial ones. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## What bothers me, is that terrorism, missing Mass & not fasting on this day or that are all mortal sins - as if they were all morally equivalent. I think that killing 30 people with a bomb is not morally equivalent to eating meat of Friday. To threaten people with Hell for eating a steak is absurd; spying for a foreign power, treason & torture aren’t morally equal to each other in the abstract - but neither are they, in the abstract, equivalent to eating a steak. Considering that the Church has sanctioned torture in the past, there is a genuine ethical problem here, which is, in part, that of how to avoid confusing relatively trivial things with more important ones.

The church’s law of fasting and abstinence, because it is able to change - eating eggs in Lent used to be forbidden as well, for example - leads to the conclusion that eating item and so-and-so can be damnable one day, or in one Rite of the Church: and be not damnable the next, when a change of the law comes into force. And lumping breaches of the law of fasting & abstinence with things that are sinful of their very nature, risks leading people to lump together Church-made laws & God-made laws. If the former can change, even though breaking them leads to Hell - maybe God-made laws which have the same penalty attached are equally changeable. Most of us are not moral theologians, after all.

So if Catholics are rather blase about going to Hell for using contraception, & don’t stay away from Communion - people have often commented on the frequency of communion and of the use of contraception, and got in a lather about it - it may well be the fault of the teaching Church for failing to distinguish between changeable laws and unchangeable ones, and saying that both have the same penalties attached. That is what comes of making a cult of obedience, and of legalism: people fail to distinguish between really serious sins, and comparatively trivial ones. ##
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Since when is not fasting on so-and-so day a mortal sin? Yeesh, think we have enough rules :/.
 
The arrogant will claim very few, the humble will entrust God’s mercy.
 
“Revelation 12:4 indicates that about a third will be damned.”

Well, it said the dragon will drag a third of the stars from the sky with his tail…and scholastic theologians were in NO consensus about this issue.

Some said this meant, simply, that stars would literally fall.

Others said this meant a third would be damned.

Others said it meant a third would be saved because they would die with Christ, withstanding the lashing tail of Satan.

Honestly, for my own reasons, I am inclined to believe that exactly Half will be saved, and half will be damned.
 
I tend to agree with those who think the third represents a third of the angels followed Satan in rebellion against God.
 
I tend to believe this…and it may not have a lot of support in any theological tradition…but it makes some sense to me…purely speculation, mind you:

I think every angel in heaven, at the end of time, will have a good human…and every demon will have an equivalent bad human. Guardian angels whose people go to hell, will keep getting assigned until one makes it to heaven with them…and people who fall into hell will lose their gaurdian angel (obviously) and be assigned a new demon to torture them in hell.

So I think Providence is arranged so that as many people will fall as angels. Not to say God is specifically damning people just so that the numbers work out…but that this number (whatever it is) is the MINIMAL possible damned in both men and angels, leaving the nature of Free Will intact.

I know that some claim that Guardian angels come only from the lowest choir, but I doubt this. Some say that things like Principalities gaurd whole nations and institutions, and I believe this is true…but that doesn’t mean they cant also guard a specific person who especially represents that nation (like a founding king or queen etc). Some say the seraph and cherubim only praise God and have no earthly duties, but I bet God does assign them to people who he knows are going to be great saints.

I bet Mary had a Seraph as her specific guardian (I know she is said to have had very many guardians, but I bet these secondary gaurdians had their own specific charge at sometime in history too). Though I can’t decide whether she had Michael or Gabriel. If Jesus has a guardian assigned to him as part of being fully human, then he had Michael and she had Gabriel (which would explain why it was Gabriel who appeared to her). But many theologians speculate that Jesus didnt have one…so, then Mary would have had Michael.

So I believe as many people will fall as angels. Some think a third of angels fell…but I think it was half. For two reasons:

One, probability. There are two choices: good and evil. So chances are that (with our fallen natures) half will choose good and half will choose evil. We are still naturally good (which leans in favor of good), but at the same time fallen (which leans in favor of bad)…so I tend to think it will all even out at half.

Reason two is that besides just having one human per every angel or demon in heaven or hell…I also believe that the Good humans are also sort of symbolically REPLACING the bad angels by being taken up into the angelic choirs, as the theologians speak of it. But the only way for humans to both be Partnered with every good angel AND replace every bad angel…is for the number fallen to be exactly half.

Because if a third of angels fell…then a third of humans could fall and the one-on-one angel-human equivalent would work. But then 2/3 of humans would be replacing only 1/3 of fallen angels! So the only way for that theory to work, is that God in his Providence, arranged so that exactly half fall. But that is to say, half is the minimal number who can be saved with free-will left intact…because I doubt God would damn people just to make the numbers all match up.
 
But that is to say, half is the minimal number who can be saved with free-will left intact
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Sorry! I meant to say I believe that, if my theory were true, half would be the MAXIMUM number possibly saved with the nature of free will left intact.
 
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batteddy:
Honestly, for my own reasons, I am inclined to believe that exactly Half will be saved, and half will be damned.
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Most of the saints say that the vast majority are not going to make it to heaven. For example, St. Louis deMontfort said if we knew how many people were not going to make it, that we’d be dumbfounded…then he goes on to say that not 1 in 10,000 people are going to make it into heaven.
St. Faustina said (when referencing her vision) that souls were falling into hell like snowflakes…
Christ says that the road to heaven is hard and narrow, and few are on it…and that the road to hell is wide and easy, and that many are on it.
Repeatedly we here this throughout the Bible, and it follows suit throughout history with the saints.
Scary stuff for sure, so like Paul says (1 Cor 9:24-27) “…run the race to win…”
 
I think Fr. Ambrose it was posted something I agree with, saying if Man was going to, the majority of us, go to Hell for eternity, why would God make us (that is just sick), go to the trouble and pain of the incarnation and death to redeem us? It also seems like, he said, if Satan’s kingdom was smaller than God’s it would be sort of embarssing or whatever, that the glory of God’s kingdom should outdo Satan’s. (I don’t remember what he said exactly, but I think it was something like this)

Remember that Loius De Montfort lived before Vatican II where clarification as to non-Christians’ salvation wasn’t around. I imagine thus that that number would include EVERY non-Christian in the world. Still, where did he get his figures? And remember, hundreds of thousands die each day, so even only a few thousand could probably be people falling like snowflakes. The teaching of the wide and narrow gate could also be sort of disciplinary-I forgot the word for it-to sort of say its not easy, but you’ve got to do it, as opposed to being a prediction.

I think I remember reading somewhere that God hasn’t really revealed all that much how many will be damned and saved because if there were too many, we would fall into despair and sin. If there were too few, we would think its easy and sin. If there was in the middle, we would rejoice as one person sinned, because it increases our chances, and it would become a competition.

All in all, I find it hard to believe less than 1 in 10,000 is going to make it to Heaven. Sounds like a rather sick God to me.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
All in all, I find it hard to believe less than 1 in 10,000 is going to make it to Heaven. Sounds like a rather sick God to me.
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It’s not God’s fault that many people will choose not to be with Him. I think it shows how much He does love us that He would go through the trouble of the Incarnation and Crucifixion knowing full well, that even after this ultimate act of love, the majority of people would not choose Him.

That being said, I’m not sure how accurate the above number, but I do Christ Himself said that the gate to Heaven is narrow and few will find it while the gate to Hell is wide and many will find it.
 
What I mean is, obviously its pretty hard to get in Heaven if 1 in 10,000 are getting to Heaven! I mean think about it-its not kind to do the Incarnation if most of the world is going to Hell, as I’d rather be simply annhilated and cease to exist then go to Hell. I read the birth rate is about 350,000 a day. The death rate is less, but lets say the death rate is just that, 350,000. 1 in every 10,000 would mean that about 35 people go to Heaven. I bet you 35 monks or priests or nuns die a DAY. I find it hard to believe that only clergymen are saved.

I’ve always hoped the gate thing was sort of…I don’t know the word…disciplinary as opposed to prophetic. Remember also, even 10 people going to Hell is many to Jesus:).

Just some wishful thinking.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
What I mean is, obviously its pretty hard to get in Heaven if 1 in 10,000 are getting to Heaven! I mean think about it-its not kind to do the Incarnation if most of the world is going to Hell, as I’d rather be simply annhilated and cease to exist then go to Hell. I read the birth rate is about 350,000 a day. The death rate is less, but lets say the death rate is just that, 350,000. 1 in every 10,000 would mean that about 35 people go to Heaven. I bet you 35 monks or priests or nuns die a DAY. I find it hard to believe that only clergymen are saved.

I’ve always hoped the gate thing was sort of…I don’t know the word…disciplinary as opposed to prophetic. Remember also, even 10 people going to Hell is many to Jesus:).

Just some wishful thinking.
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Oh, I’m not sure how accurate that number is. I mean, I hope and pray everyone makes it to Heaven, but just looking around I’m not sure how realisitic that is unfortunately. I mean, there are so many people who without any contrition choose the immediate temporal benefits of the world over the future eternal benefits that God offers to those who simply love Him. It’s very sad. 😦

I mean, msot people consider me a religious nut, but I feel like I’m always struggling to stay in a state of sanctifying grace–what about the people who don’t really care about God at all.:eek: Hopefully everyone gets some extra graces on their deathbed that helps them repent and come home.
 
Remember also-the prayer of St. Gertrude the Great. It releases a thousand souls from Purgatory. If there weren’t tons and tons and tons of souls in there, Jesus would just give her a prayer that empties it.
 
My guess is that it’s up to God.

My other guess is that I’m not God.

I’ll let someone else decide.
 
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FuzzyBunny116:
Since when is not fasting on so-and-so day a mortal sin? Yeesh, think we have enough rules :/.
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Ash Wednesday & Good Friday are both fast days. I agree though - there are rules enough as it is (Some “traditionally-minded” Catholics were rather disappointed when the new Code of Canon Law was published in 1983 - because it has 1752 canons, as against the 2414 of the 1917 Code :))​

 
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FuzzyBunny116:
I think Fr. Ambrose it was posted something I agree with, saying if Man was going to, the majority of us, go to Hell for eternity, why would God make us (that is just sick), go to the trouble and pain of the incarnation and death to redeem us? It also seems like, he said, if Satan’s kingdom was smaller than God’s it would be sort of embarssing or whatever, that the glory of God’s kingdom should outdo Satan’s. (I don’t remember what he said exactly, but I think it was something like this)

Remember that Loius De Montfort lived before Vatican II where clarification as to non-Christians’ salvation wasn’t around. I imagine thus that that number would include EVERY non-Christian in the world. Still, where did he get his figures? And remember, hundreds of thousands die each day, so even only a few thousand could probably be people falling like snowflakes. The teaching of the wide and narrow gate could also be sort of disciplinary-I forgot the word for it-to sort of say its not easy, but you’ve got to do it, as opposed to being a prediction.

I think I remember reading somewhere that God hasn’t really revealed all that much how many will be damned and saved because if there were too many, we would fall into despair and sin. If there were too few, we would think its easy and sin. If there was in the middle, we would rejoice as one person sinned, because it increases our chances, and it would become a competition.

All in all, I find it hard to believe less than 1 in 10,000 is going to make it to Heaven. Sounds like a rather sick God to me.
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:amen: to all that 🙂​

As to the numbers dying each day: I have an old prayer book from 1910 or so, which says that 80,000 people die each day. It’s interesting, to compare stats for “then” & “now”.

Father Faber has a long discussion of this topic in “The Creator and the Creature”. He is decidedly in favour of the view that most Catholics will be saved (I forget what he says, if anything, about the proportions for the human race at large). He quotes many authors on both sides - and some are very pessimistic 🙂

If next to nobody is going to be saved - why bother trying ? Why bother with self-denial when one is going to be for the chop in any case ? If people are all but certain to suffer Hell in the next life - why not should they not have a jolly good time in this life, and to Hell with the consequences ? If they’re going to be damned - they might at least do something to be damned for; if Hell is what awaits us, we have no reason to bother one jot about anyone but ourselves, and “religious people” are denying themselves lots of good things for absolutely no reason whatever.

IOW, this kind of pessimism leads to gross immorality, atheism, & despair; and positively discourages love of virtue or of God. It’s an incentive to sin. 😦

I think a lot of our ideas on the subject owe little to revelation, & plenty to our temperaments, experiences, the ideas which influence us, and so on. ##
 
“Do not despair, one of the thieves was saved; do not presume, one of the thieves was damned.”

Who said that?

Oh yeah, I think his name was St. Augustine:D.
 
God will judge your heart - that is how hard you are trying. Being human we will fail time and time again. He knows that. The question will be do we turn from God or toward Him? Are we arrogant in our sin or humble?

From the Divine Mercy Diary: (Jesus’s words in red)

**Does God condemn anyone? ** **When the sisters got up at eleven o’clock at night to keep vigil and welcome the New Year, I had been writhing in agony since nightfall, and this lasted until midnight. I united my sufferings with the prayers of the sisters who were keeping vigil in the chapel and atoning to God for the offences of sinners. (1451). When the clock struck twelve, my soul immersed itself more deeply in recollection, and I heard a voice in my soul: ****“Do not fear, My little child, you are not alone. Fight bravely, because My arm is supporting you; fight for the salvation of souls, exhorting them to trust in My mercy, as that is your task in this life and in the life to come.” **After these words, I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only that soul who wants [to be damned] will be damned, for God condemns no one. (1452) Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! But- horror -there are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a soul is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself…(1698)
 
Three excellent posts in a row. I don’t interpret the “one in ten thousand” number as being anything more than hyperbole.

If only one in ten thousand can go to Heaven, then what would that tell us? That prayer doesn’t work, the sacraments don’t work, and that God’s Divine Mercy doesn’t work. :eek: That only the Mother Theresas or Saint Francises can have any hope of going to heaven. That all just doesn’t sound right to me.

It is better to neither despair nor be presumptuous, avail yourself of the Sacraments, live as holy a life as you can, and trust in the Divine Mercy. I am sure that there are souls who “voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace”, but I don’t believe that applies to 9,999 out of 10,000.
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