How Much is Rome Worth To You?

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Really? I thought it (goal) was to draw the Eastern away from the Orthodox. But then why did they go to the English language?
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Pope John Paul II wanted unity most. I have no idea where this new Pope is headed.
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What is your point with this post? Do you deny that the Latins intended to latinize the eastern churches? The missionaries to the Maronites burned Maronite liturgical books. Their goal was to introduce Latin concepts into the eastern liturgy. It was Rome who published the Maronite liturgical books. And if you examine them you will see the latinization. For example, the anaphoras. The Maronites used to have dozens of anaphoras in their liturgy but over the successive printings of the missal they were removed and guess what anaphora was given the pre-eminent place? The Roman Canon, which isn’t even a Maronite anaphora. That is about as much of a latinization as there can be in the liturgy. It was Rome that demanded that we stop giving the Eucharist to infants even though this is the ancient tradition of Christianity. It was Rome who demanded that the priest could not offer Chrismation even though this was the ancient tradition. It was Rome who demanded that the Maronites remove the statement ‘who was crucified for us’ from the trisagion.

The attitude of Rome was that the Eastern Churches must accept the way of the Latins and be like them as much as possible. However there has been a change in attitude in Rome. The recent popes have respected the Eastern Churches.
 
I am sorry if my last post sounds a little reactionary or unkind in any way. That is not my intent. It is too late to edit though. I simply wanted to say that latinization is a reality that can’t be denied. It has happened extensively in the Maronite Church. Thankfully there has been a change in the last 50 years and the Eastern Churches are returning to their traditions.
 
ByzCath said:
I think you have it wrong here. If this were to happen it would be the Rock of St Peter separating itself from us.
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Yet can the Rock of St. Peter separate itself? This would not be the case, although it would be heresy, the Pope would not be dissolving the Eastern Catholic Churches, just making them follow the Latin Rite.
 
ByzCath said:
First, wikipedia is not an authoritative source. It us user driven so what is found there is not guaranteed to be correct and in this case it is very, very wrong.

The Eastern Catholic Churches are sui iuris, which means we are our own Church separate from the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church. We have our own hierarchy, our own Code of Canons, and our own particular laws. We are in communion with the Pope as supreme pontiff, not with the other two hats he wears (Bishop of Rome and Patriarch of the West (or Latin Church)).
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That is a great point. Yes the Eastern Catholic Churches continue to be Autonomous like they always were.
When reunification occurs between Rome and the Orthodox Churches the Eastern Churches will cease to exist, we will reunite with our Mother Churches.
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The Orthodox would gladly accept us back (as they do today) if we come to them.
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Are you sure? So are you saying that for instance the Ukrainian Catholic Church would be absorbed into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and so on. What about the Maronite Catholic Church that was never in schism. Would it not remain it’s own church?
 
holdencaulfield said:
Yet can the Rock of St. Peter separate itself? This would not be the case, although it would be heresy, the Pope would not be dissolving the Eastern Catholic Churches, just making them follow the Latin Rite.
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But making them follow the Latin Rite would be dissolving the Eastern Catholic Rites. Can the Pope commit heresy?
holdencaulfield said:
That is a great point. Yes the Eastern Catholic Churches continue to be Autonomous like they always were.

Are you sure? So are you saying that for instance the Ukrainian Catholic Church would be absorbed into the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and so on. What about the Maronite Catholic Church that was never in schism. Would it not remain it’s own church?
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Yes I am sure. Those Eastern Catholic Churches who do not have an Orthodox Mother Church would stay as they are.
 
ByzCath said:
But making them follow the Latin Rite would be dissolving the Eastern Catholic Rites. Can the Pope commit heresy?
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Yes the Pope is a Fallible person and can always commit heresy. For example Pope Honorius. This isn’t against Catholic Magisterium, no where is it said that the Pope is an Infallible person. 🙂
 
No, the Pope can not commit heresy unless its as a private person. Meaning any atempt to destroy Eastern churches would be a public heretical act and he would no longer be Pope. This is of course, impossible and can not happen. St. Robert Bellarmine wrote on the subject of this.
 
Formosus said:
No, the Pope can not commit heresy unless its as a private person. Meaning any atempt to destroy Eastern churches would be a public heretical act and he would no longer be Pope. This is of course, impossible and can not happen. St. Robert Bellarmine wrote on the subject of this.
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But here we have a snag. If he tried to do this Ex Cathedra, then he would not be able to and would die before, or something else. He can teach heresy publicly if he wants. Yes he would stop being the Pope, but he could still not be removed from the office. So he could still commit heresy if he wanted. The Pope is a Fallible person except when speaking Ex Cathedra. In all other instances he is as Fallible as you and me.
 
No, teaching heresy removes one from their office. The issue of “sedevacantism” is immposible and what your suggesting is a situation that would create a vacant seat.
 
Formosus said:
No, teaching heresy removes one from their office. The issue of “sedevacantism” is immposible and what your suggesting is a situation that would create a vacant seat.
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No, because the Pope would still hold the office of Pope, yet he would not be the Pope, so Idk, the pope can teach heresy what about Pope Honorius.
 
The thing is that you can’t actually depose a Pope because there is no higher appeal. So its possible that he lost his office. I take it that this was private dissent and only public heresy will lose one’s office.
 
Formosus said:
The thing is that you can’t actually depose a Pope because there is no higher appeal. So its possible that he lost his office. I take it that this was private dissent and only public heresy will lose one’s office.
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Yes, I know, however a Pope can later on Excommunicate a dead Pope.
 
holdencaulfield said:
This is a hypothetical question. This is only for Eastern Catholics. Lets say that all of a sudden for no reason the Pope dissolved all Eastern Catholic Churches and made them abide by the Roman Rite. What would you do? Would you stay in the Roman Catholic Church or leave?
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ill-posed question. It is akin to something absurd like, if Jesus came down from Heaven and worshiped at the Mormon Temple, would you join Him?
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
ill-posed question. It is akin to something absurd like, if Jesus came down from Heaven and worshiped at the Mormon Temple, would you join Him?
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LOL. Yes I know. My questions was more towards, do Eastern Catholics feel more drawn to the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church in the sense of belonging, not Liturgy or tradition.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
ill-posed question. It is akin to something absurd like, if Jesus came down from Heaven and worshiped at the Mormon Temple, would you join Him?
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I don’t think it is that ill-posed considering the past relationship which we had with Rome and the west. Was it an infallible decision for the west to change its approach toward us over the last 60 or so years? Are we now protected by some infallible decree?
 
holdencaulfield said:
Me either. I wanted to know. How much was Rome worth to you?
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And my answer is that I would join the Oriental Orthodox Church if Rome decided that we must conform to them because they determined that our different tradition, spirituality, and theology was somehow a threat to the west or to the unity of the Church.
 
jimmy said:
And my answer is that I would join the Oriental Orthodox Church if Rome decided that we must conform to them because they determined that our different tradition, spirituality, and theology was somehow a threat to the west or to the unity of the Church.
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Why the Oriental Orthodox Church? They are heretics for only accepting the first three Ecumenical Councils.
 
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