How narrow is the narrow gate?

[raymond_king]

Saint Leonard was not just going off of private revelatioin but also the tradition of other saints and Doctors of the Church.

Where in this statement are you getting the impression that they are saying that thirty three thousand people is the average death rate per hour or even per day? What I read from this is that the archdeacon is telling us that there just so happened to be thirty three thousand people being judged the same time him and Saint Bernard were being judged and that out of the multitude only him and Bernard went straight to heaven. The number listed isn’t an average of deaths per hour or even per day but rather a sobering point to stress that less than 1.7% of the thirty three thousand that died (this includes the three that made it to Purgatory) were saved.

Anyone that takes the thirty three thousand deaths as an average has taken the statment out of context and unfortunately has wasted all that time calculating for no reason.

I’m sticking with the saints on this one.

Why bother yourself with controversy. Monks turn off the unimportant questions to ask this: God? Why is this Wonder of You ? Why do I notice it? What does it mean?Who are you?

 

[Cristiano]

I think that we are spending too much energy on something that is not really critical. I will look up the document from Trent and I will send it to you. I think that we really believe and agree in what the fundamental message is: “If you do not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and if you do not accept his graces and commandments you will go to hell even if He really wants you in heaven”. I really enjoy conversing with you and I hope that you will have a good and restful night.
May God bless you.

This is the quote from the Catechism of Trent that I promised to you:
"Form To Be Used In The Consecration Of The Wine

With regard lo the consecration of the wine, which is the other element of this Sacrament, the priest, for the reason we have already assigned, ought of necessity to be well acquainted with, and well understand its form. We are then firmly to believe that it consists in the following words: This is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many, to the remission of sins. Of these words the greater part are taken from Scripture; but some have been preserved in the Church from Apostolic tradition.

Thus the words, this is the chalice, are found in St. Luke and in the Apostle; but the words that immediately follow, of my blood, or my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for you and for many to the remission of sins, are found partly in St. Luke and partly in St. Matthew. But the words, eternal, and the mystery of faith, have been taught us by holy tradition, the interpreter and keeper of Catholic truth.

Concerning this form no one can doubt, if he here also attend to what has been already said about the form used in the consecration of the bread. The form to be used (in the consecration) of this element, evidently consists of those words which signify that the substance of the wine is changed into the blood of our Lord. since, therefore, the words already cited clearly declare this, it is plain that no other words constitute the form.

They moreover express certain admirable fruits of the blood shed in the Passion of our Lord, fruits which pertain in a most special manner to this Sacrament. Of these, one is access to the eternal inheritance, which has come to us by right of the new and everlasting testament. Another is access to righteousness by the mystery of faith; for God hath set forth Jesus to be a propitiator through faith in his blood, that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus. Christ. A third effect is the remission of sins."

 

[Cristiano]

Why bother yourself with controversy. Monks turn off the unimportant questions to ask this: God? Why is this Wonder of You ? Why do I notice it? What does it mean?Who are you?

I think that bothering with controversy sometime is very important because a lot of heresies have been eliminated and teachings have been affirmed because of people that dealt with controversy.

Your reference to the spiritual aspect of simply accepting instruction from scripture or tradition in order to relate to God is extremely important too. The shortcoming of apologetic threads is that the spirituality is not addressed directly.

 

[Cristiano]

I just found this article by Avery Cardinal Dulles and I think that it is a very interesting reading in relation to the topic.

“The Population of Hell” published in First Things (May 2003)

 

[PJM]

=hazcompat;8039326]Matthew 12:32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next

Is there forgiveness in the next?

the narrow gate is The Way of Christ!

peace

Then SHORT ANSWER IS NO

“Next” in this context refers to “eternity” and by then all options for possible forgiveness have PASSED.

It is We ourselves who decide where we will spend Ethernity. God “only” affirms our life decessions.

Those in BOTH Heaven and Purgatory HAVE been forgiven. In Purgatory they are still paying BACK for the consequences of their sins even though the sins themselve have been remitted and forgiven by Christ.

Those in Hell made there own choices and will life with them for Eternity. No further options are avai;lable to them

GOD HAS SPOKEN!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The saints throughout history always say that MANY go to Hell and few to to Heaven.

It’s the non saints that always think that everyone is going to Heaven.

I’ll choose to believe the saints more than the non saints.

Jesus said few. Few does not equal a majority!

Few could numerically be a large number, though.

Say if only 1% of all the people that will ever live will make it to Heaven.

Presently over 6 billion people are alive.

1% would be 60 million!

Say only 1% of that number make it straight to Heaven without going to purgatory.

That would be 600,000!

So bottom line we should be joyful that a large number will be in Heaven–but also work out our salvation with fear and trembling because so many–billions perhaps–will go to Hell!

 

[PJM]

=Cristiano;8044117]I think that we are spending too much energy on something that is not really critical. I will look up the document from Trent and I will send it to you. I think that we really believe and agree in what the fundamental message is: “If you do not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and if you do not accept his graces and commandments you will go to hell even if He really wants you in heaven”. I really enjoy conversing with you and I hope that you will have a good and restful night.
May God bless you.

Grace, Commandment AND SACRAMENTS, AND Charity

I’m filmiliar with TRENT, THANKS!

God Bless you my friend!
Pat

 

[Trolol]

If it’s too narrow nothing hard or stiff will fit!!!

 

[illusion_buster]

THE NARROW GATE - It was explained to me by a deacon in the Church who had visited the Holy land where this parable was told that the 'Narrow Gate" actually refered to an actual existing gate entry into Jerusalem. Most gates into this city were large to accommodate travelling caravans with camels etc. These gates were so congested that it could take days to be processed (by the romans) through. Most people went this way as it was the most secure for them & their belongings. BUT… if one chose, they COULD take a faster route and enter through the narrow gate (It had an official name but I forget it, but it was known commonly as 'the eye of the needle"). At THIS gate, to pass through, a traveller had to completely unload on one side, pass through and have their belongings passed through to them to reload. The largest belonging that could fit through was a small camel and even that would need to be pushed through from behind. (in this scenerio, you couldn’t go through without help from trusted friends etc, to look after your belongings either side of the gate and to help you push & pull the camel. If you travelled light, you could pass through quite quickily instead of lining up behind all the caravans. So when the Lord was talking about rich men finding it easier to pass through the the eye of the needle then to enter heaven He was referring to this narrow gate and NOT a needle as we assume today. It just means we need to let go of material possessions, and the hold they have over us and walk in faith. When we do this the Lord will give us back our riches when we complete the passage through. It would be sensible to note that everything Jesus said in parable was said in context with what the people of the day & place understood. (It pays to research customs and understandings of the day to truely understand what was actually being taught).

 

[jbajek]

Christ also said "If there were not MANY rooms/mansios in my Father’s house, I would not have said “I go to prepare a place for you.” The point is we are not to judge who those people are. A person may very well be headed to Hell and repent at the last moment (the good thief)

 

[paul_c]

We do not see as God sees so its impossible to know how many go to heaven. If we truly love our neighbors, we would want them all to go to heaven.

But there is clearly reason to be pessimistic about this. Jesus says in John 6 that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, there is no life within you. Yet the percentage of people who go to mass is very small. 15% of the earth’s population is Catholic. Maybe 30% of Catholics go to mass on a weekly basis. That means that less than 5% of the earth’s population have enough love of God to devote 1 hour a week to going to mass. If you went to how many go to confession, its even less.

Every Catholic should know how to get to heaven:

• get baptized to gain sufficient grace to go to heaven
  → stay in the state of grace by avoiding mortal sin and love God and neighbor
  → strengthen the grace within you through frequently partaking of the eucharist and doing works of love and devotion
  → If you fall from grace through sin, you can be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation.

Yet so many fail to do even the simplest component of this - partaking of the sacraments.

 

[raymond_king]

I think that bothering with controversy sometime is very important because a lot of heresies have been eliminated and teachings have been affirmed because of people that dealt with controversy.

Your reference to the spiritual aspect of simply accepting instruction from scripture or tradition in order to relate to God is extremely important too. The shortcoming of apologetic threads is that the spirituality is not addressed directly.

you know: sometimes I think that these threads do not know the wonder that is faith. This ‘Gift’ that IS HE IN US is not given the due that HE deserves. They speak of us keeping the faith as if was something that we have to do rather then trying to understand what it is that we have been Given. What is this Faith, how is it present in our hearts, where did it come from, where does it lead us. Is it really God dwelling in our hearts? Oh, what wonders of the the answers that we receive. Ray

 

[raymond_king]

THE NARROW GATE - It was explained to me by a deacon in the Church who had visited the Holy land where this parable was told that the 'Narrow Gate" actually refered to an actual existing gate entry into Jerusalem. Most gates into this city were large to accommodate travelling caravans with camels etc. These gates were so congested that it could take days to be processed (by the romans) through. Most people went this way as it was the most secure for them & their belongings. BUT… if one chose, they COULD take a faster route and enter through the narrow gate (It had an official name but I forget it, but it was known commonly as 'the eye of the needle"). At THIS gate, to pass through, a traveller had to completely unload on one side, pass through and have their belongings passed through to them to reload. The largest belonging that could fit through was a small camel and even that would need to be pushed through from behind. (in this scenerio, you couldn’t go through without help from trusted friends etc, to look after your belongings either side of the gate and to help you push & pull the camel. If you travelled light, you could pass through quite quickily instead of lining up behind all the caravans. So when the Lord was talking about rich men finding it easier to pass through the the eye of the needle then to enter heaven He was referring to this narrow gate and NOT a needle as we assume today. It just means we need to let go of material possessions, and the hold they have over us and walk in faith. When we do this the Lord will give us back our riches when we complete the passage through. It would be sensible to note that everything Jesus said in parable was said in context with what the people of the day & place understood. (It pays to research customs and understandings of the day to truely understand what was actually being taught).unburden youself of even these. take a chance the next time you hear something of wonder spoken of from whatever sourse see where HE guides you. Ray

 

[PJM]

=jbajek;8053932]Christ also said "If there were not MANY rooms/mansios in my Father’s house, I would not have said “I go to prepare a place for you.” The point is we are not to judge who those people are. A person may very well be headed to Hell and repent at the last moment (the good thief)

TRUE BUT

Matt. 7: 14-21

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
**"Beware of false prophets,[preachers] who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ** You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? [17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”

WE ARE TO JUDGE ACTIONS BUT NEVER MOTIVES IN ORDER TO CORRECT ERROR AND TEACH TRUTH.

God Bles,
Pat

 

[ajpirc]

TRUE BUT

Matt. 7: 14-21

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
**"Beware of false prophets,[preachers] who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. ** You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? [17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”

WE ARE TO JUDGE ACTIONS BUT NEVER MOTIVES IN ORDER TO CORRECT ERROR AND TEACH TRUTH.

God Bles,
Pat

Great Answer!

 

[jaunito76]

Tim,

I think you are completely correct. The reason we are not allowed to judge other people’s salvation is that we do not know all of their circumstances. In fact St. Paul says that he does not even judge himself, why? This is because only God knows all the things that went into his decision making, including the capacities that He has given to other people. It is crazy to assume that he expects the same of those that grew up in a Muslim house, in a Muslim culture, in a Muslim country as those that grew up in a Christian home, culture, and country. In fact He even says, to him much has been given, much will be expected, but to him whom little is given little will be expected. The narrow gate and narrow path obviously applied to the way in which we are to live and to lead our families to live. We are to live by making the tough counter-cultural choices that may offend the “world” but please God. We are to make choices that are hard to make, but that make all the difference. We are called to be an example to the herd that is taking the easy path. Look at Mother Theresa’s path, and the shining light she was for God. She undoubtedly took a narrow path and was given a Saint’s reward. This is also unfortunately a “judgement” which I should not engage in as she is yet to be named a canonized Saint by the Church, but her life does seem to be one that always pointed toward her Savior and one that pointed others toward her Savior. Our gracious God is the same one who told the parable of the workers in the field that were hired all day long. They all received the same reward even though some people’s road was much less “narrow.” We cannot begrudge God’s mercy because as you said Tim, we are all sinners and are beholden to that mercy to see His light!

• CJ

 

[jomoco]

Tim,

I think you are completely correct. The reason we are not allowed to judge other people’s salvation is that we do not know all of their circumstances. In fact St. Paul says that he does not even judge himself, why? This is because only God knows all the things that went into his decision making, including the capacities that He has given to other people. It is crazy to assume that he expects the same of those that grew up in a Muslim house, in a Muslim culture, in a Muslim country as those that grew up in a Christian home, culture, and country. In fact He even says, to him much has been given, much will be expected, but to him whom little is given little will be expected. The narrow gate and narrow path obviously applied to the way in which we are to live and to lead our families to live. We are to live by making the tough counter-cultural choices that may offend the “world” but please God. We are to make choices that are hard to make, but that make all the difference. We are called to be an example to the herd that is taking the easy path. Look at Mother Theresa’s path, and the shining light she was for God. She undoubtedly took a narrow path and was given a Saint’s reward. This is also unfortunately a “judgement” which I should not engage in as she is yet to be named a canonized Saint by the Church, but her life does seem to be one that always pointed toward her Savior and one that pointed others toward her Savior. Our gracious God is the same one who told the parable of the workers in the field that were hired all day long. They all received the same reward even though some people’s road was much less “narrow.” We cannot begrudge God’s mercy because as you said Tim, we are all sinners and are beholden to that mercy to see His light!

• CJ

Jolly good analysis my friend, I agree most whole heartedly, that MOTHER Theresa is totally deserving ofr inclusion in the Holy Trinity, no doubt.

jomoco

 

[raymond_king]

Great Answer!

to judge actions but never motives? are not motives the reason for actions? the actions of God in his creation we must understand to see his intentions. is this not trying to know God which in st. john is known as eternal life? Ray

 

[raymond_king]

to judge actions but never motives? are not motives the reason for actions? the actions of God in his creation we must understand to see his intentions. is this not trying to know God which in st. john is known as eternal life? Ray

To know God in each other To love the God we know and to understand him in each other.

 

[paul_c]

Jolly good analysis my friend, I agree most whole heartedly, that MOTHER Theresa is totally deserving ofr inclusion in the Holy Trinity, no doubt.

jomoco

What are we to make of this?