How should women act so as not to draw undue attention?

[Cracker_Mom]

Just watched an old movie, The Scarlet and the Black, which was filmed in Rome. A story placed during WWII. There is something so reverent about seeing women with their heads covered with a Mandilla when visiting the Vatican. Long time ago.

Great movie! We just got a copy from Netflix recently.Too bad, though the film doesn’t show what Pope Pius actually did to help the Jews during WWII.But perhaps the director was unaware of all the facts.
I like wearing a mantilla for Mass, too.Helps me, in a practical way, to remember I am in the presence of God & in a sacred place.
Still don’t understand if they have a dress code at the Vatican for men & women, why can’t we have the same at our parish churches?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yeah, I’ve run into some creepy men who obsess about womens’ dress under the guise of piety.They have way more interest in the matter than is healthy.It speaks more about them than the women/girls they try to lecture.
Real charity comes with humility.And the correct intentions.

Japanese filmmaker Akira Kurosawa, during his years as a young director in WWII, had to deal a lot with the censors of the tyrannical Japanese government. His biggest complaint was that they found everything sexual. If the leading man and lady were standing on stairs talking to one another, they wanted it taking out - it was that bad. He stated that because they were themselves perverse, they perceived the world around them as perverse as well. I think many people, attempting to be pious, instead allow their perversity to control how they perceive other people.

I once read a story of an Egyptian monk who was approached by a younger monk who confessed to committing the sin of sodomy. The boy was in tears and begged forgiveness. Without raising his voice or uttering a word of insult, the elder gave a response that essentially said, “It’s all right. Come back to us. Try again.”

Much has already been said about what women shouldn’t wear and what they shouldn’t do, but let’s not forget the responsibility of men. There will be some men out there who, no matter how modestly a woman is dressed, will still lust after her. Keep in mind that in mosques, where women are covered up quite modestly, they still separate the women from the men further (in some places they’re sealed off, in other places put on the second floor), seeking to do away with ANY possible temptation. During my brief stint in Islam this always troubled me - my belief was if you were so tempted by the opposite sex, even a modestly dressed woman - that you couldn’t perform your worship, you had much more to worry about than what they looked like.

Of course, that is the person struggle of the man, and I leave that between him and God. I only ask that the man look upon others with the same patience and reverence he expects God to give him on Judgment Day

 

[phoage]

Much has already been said about what women shouldn’t wear and what they shouldn’t do, but let’s not forget the responsibility of men. There will be some men out there who, no matter how modestly a woman is dressed, will still lust after her. Keep in mind that in mosques, where women are covered up quite modestly, they still separate the women from the men further (in some places they’re sealed off, in other places put on the second floor), seeking to do away with ANY possible temptation. During my brief stint in Islam this always troubled me - my belief was if you were so tempted by the opposite sex, even a modestly dressed woman - that you couldn’t perform your worship, you had much more to worry about than what they looked like.

Here here!

Some men are absolutely obsessed about this type issue.

Full disclosure: I am male and while I am no longer a teenager I am not dead either and I can appreciate and even be aroused by a beautiful woman. Ask my wife.

Having said that, appreciating beauty or even to a certain extent getting aroused is not nesessarily lust. Even if it becomes lust, that is the woman’s sin peripherally at most. The guy is the one with the problem. Men need to take responsability for their actions. You don’t have to give her a second look.

Patrick

 

[GraceDK]

Here here!

Some men are absolutely obsessed about this type issue.

Full disclosure: I am male and while I am no longer a teenager I am not dead either and I can appreciate and even be aroused by a beautiful woman. Ask my wife.

Having said that, appreciating beauty or even to a certain extent getting aroused is not nesessarily lust. Even if it becomes lust, that is the woman’s sin peripherally at most. The guy is the one with the problem. Men need to take responsability for their actions. You don’t have to give her a second look.

Patrick

Patrick and Byzantine-Wolf.
So happy to see your posts.
I have the feeling that when I say what you say, I am accused of saying anything goes and that I am against the teachings of Pope, the Bishops and even God Himself.
Good to see some sane people who simply say it like it is
Maybe its because I am a woman that I cant get away with it.
I think some people here envision me walking around in the nude on the streets as a feminist, hehe… (I refer to another thread)…

 

[lobster]

I would like to point out that men don’t dress so provocatively because, 1): he doesnt have breasts and so it impossible for him to have a problem with cleavage. A problem that you already have on your picture if I dare go that close and point it out. At any day someone could say you were not modest…
2) if he wears tight pants we dont notice it because mens legs just are not interesting for us. So he doesnt go out of his way to get tight pants.
3) If I go into a bachelors room somewhere I see naked women with huge breasts on the walls. Men find this fascinating for some reasons.
4) If I go into a lockerroom for female workers I see the faces of Keanu Reeves and Brat Pitts on the lockers. The handsomeness of the face is being looked at.
5) If women were in generel turned on by naked strangers, men who wore skimpy clothes, then I am sure we would see just as many men wearing provocative clothes as women. I think you know that. The immodesty-issues is one that always takes two sides.
Then again I also want to point out the huge grey area of clothes that some say are modest and others say are not. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for the indivdual taste and thinking.

So you can see why it is appropriate for a topic such as this to be generally directed toward women, right?
Has nothing to do with singling out women or bashing or such nonsense. There isn’t as much of a problem with men dressing or acting in such a way as to stir up lust in women to the point that it needs to be seriously addressed as there is the other way around.

 

[lobster]

Just watched an old movie, The Scarlet and the Black, which was filmed in Rome. A story placed during WWII. There is something so reverent about seeing women with their heads covered with a Mandilla when visiting the Vatican. Long time ago.

Love that movie. Very moving!

 

[lobster]

Having said that, appreciating beauty or even to a certain extent getting aroused is not nesessarily lust. Even if it becomes lust, that is the woman’s sin peripherally at most. The guy is the one with the problem. Men need to take responsability for their actions. You don’t have to give her a second look.

Patrick

Such would not seem to coincide with Our Lord’s teachings on leading others into sin. If we know our fellow man has difficulty in regards to a certain sin, and do nothing but simply reply, “it is their problem, let them fend for themselves”, we are being seriously negligent in our charitable responsibility. I would think leading someone purposely to sin is even worse than for the person who actually ends up committing the sin. To be the cause of the spiraling evil which ultimately sprouted from our own actions, whether willful or through inattentiveness or negligence.
Very true however that men (and all people) need to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[phoage]

Such would not seem to coincide with Our Lord’s teachings on leading others into sin. If we know our fellow man has difficulty in regards to a certain sin, and do nothing but simply reply, “it is their problem, let them fend for themselves”, we are being seriously negligent in our charitable responsibility. I would think leading someone purposely to sin is even worse than for the person who actually ends up committing the sin. To be the cause of the spiraling evil which ultimately sprouted from our own actions, whether willful or through inattentiveness or negligence.
Very true however that men (and all people) need to take responsibility for their actions.

I am not saying that the woman has no fault. One must remember that between 12 and about 30, most men are walking hormones, and some people claim it is someone else leading them to sin (the painted Jezibelle) rather than their own mind being in the gutter.

There are appropriate and inappropriate places for different types of clothing. Most of the women that go to my church dress appropriately for church, but if they showed up at the beath or a water park dressed the same way, people would stare, with reason, and vice versa.

And of course, there are no hard and fast rules. In the thread that this thread started from there were some pictures posted of 2 dresses, and 2 swim suits. I thought all of them nice modest clothing for the model pictured. The swim suits for beach activities and the dresses for non-physical public outings such as shopping, office or church.

Now I am fairly liberal when it comes to clothing. I spent a number of years overseas and by most European standards, Americans are prudes. Flesh does not bother me generally.
It is more likely to offend my sense of taste than arouse my lust. Other people are different and people (men and women) need to keep that in mind. Any of those pictures would get you arrested and possibly executed in many places in the middle east.

My point for all this is that yes, women need to keep their dress appropriate to the activity but if a man is getting lead into occations of sin everytime he steps out of the house, maybe it is not loose female morals but weak male will.

Jesus does not want us to lead others into sin, but he is the judge of that, not us; at least last time I looked.

Patrick

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I am not saying that the woman has no fault. One must remember that between 12 and about 30, most men are walking hormones, and some people claim it is someone else leading them to sin (the painted Jezibelle) rather than their own mind being in the gutter.

There are appropriate and inappropriate places for different types of clothing. Most of the women that go to my church dress appropriately for church, but if they showed up at the beath or a water park dressed the same way, people would stare, with reason, and vice versa.

And of course, there are no hard and fast rules. In the thread that this thread started from there were some pictures posted of 2 dresses, and 2 swim suits. I thought all of them nice modest clothing for the model pictured. The swim suits for beach activities and the dresses for non-physical public outings such as shopping, office or church.

Now I am fairly liberal when it comes to clothing. I spent a number of years overseas and by most European standards, Americans are prudes. Flesh does not bother me generally.
It is more likely to offend my sense of taste than arouse my lust. Other people are different and people (men and women) need to keep that in mind. Any of those pictures would get you arrested and possibly executed in many places in the middle east.

My point for all this is that yes, women need to keep their dress appropriate to the activity but if a man is getting lead into occations of sin everytime he steps out of the house, maybe it is not loose female morals but weak male will.

Jesus does not want us to lead others into sin, but he is the judge of that, not us; at least last time I looked.

Patrick

And men who can not look away from occasions of sin might want to wear blinders-but that might draw undue attention…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Christ said that a man who looks at woman with lust in his heart has committed adultery with her…but He never specified what she wore.

Now granted, a woman who willingly flaunts herself knowingly, especially if she has the goal to lure in men for sex or to tease men, is in the wrong. However, my experience has been that women and men see dress differently: women, for the most part, dress to be comfortable (not to desire lust, sex or rape), whereas men assume that a woman dressed “sexy” automatically wants sex. It’s also worthy to note that for some women there’s no getting around drawing a man’s attention - I’ve spoken to well endowed women who say that, in terms of “hiding themselves,” there’s no possibility short of donning a full burkha.

Many of the Fathers whose writings are in the Philokalia state that the lust for a woman is not necessarily on the blame of a woman, but on the man - for God makes a woman the way He wants (be she stunningly attractive or just physically appealing) and it is the demons who inspire us to lust after them. Women are, after all, God’s creation, and it is lust that drives us men to tarnish this creation and turn it into an object of earthly satisfaction. We dare not fall back on the old excuse that a woman gets raped because of what she wore, since we have, up to the very moment the sin is committed, the free will supplied by God to tell the demons “no.”

So again, while I agree a woman should dress appropriately, it is also the struggle of the man to control his urges within and without. Just as man and woman were made to live together, so are they made to struggle together.

 

[lobster]

And men who can not look away from occasions of sin might want to wear blinders-but that might draw undue attention…

Is it too much to ask that if you are going to participate to please offer constructive feedback? If you think the topic is silly to you, then find another thread where you can be helpful. Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[lobster]

I am not saying that the woman has no fault. One must remember that between 12 and about 30, most men are walking hormones, and some people claim it is someone else leading them to sin (the painted Jezibelle) rather than their own mind being in the gutter.

There are appropriate and inappropriate places for different types of clothing. Most of the women that go to my church dress appropriately for church, but if they showed up at the beath or a water park dressed the same way, people would stare, with reason, and vice versa.

And of course, there are no hard and fast rules. In the thread that this thread started from there were some pictures posted of 2 dresses, and 2 swim suits. I thought all of them nice modest clothing for the model pictured. The swim suits for beach activities and the dresses for non-physical public outings such as shopping, office or church.

Now I am fairly liberal when it comes to clothing. I spent a number of years overseas and by most European standards, Americans are prudes. Flesh does not bother me generally.
It is more likely to offend my sense of taste than arouse my lust. Other people are different and people (men and women) need to keep that in mind. Any of those pictures would get you arrested and possibly executed in many places in the middle east.

My point for all this is that yes, women need to keep their dress appropriate to the activity but if a man is getting lead into occations of sin everytime he steps out of the house, maybe it is not loose female morals but weak male will.

Jesus does not want us to lead others into sin, but he is the judge of that, not us; at least last time I looked.

Patrick

Thank you for the added explanation. Your point makes a lot more sense now.
What is your opinion or suggestions for appropriate behavior for a woman who would like to be helpful in regards to her brothers in Christ by not presenting herself immodestly?
Assuming clothing is not the determinant, rather ones actions.

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you for the added explanation. Your point makes a lot more sense now.
What is your opinion or suggestions for appropriate behavior for a woman who would like to be helpful in regards to her brothers in Christ by not presenting herself immodestly?
Assuming clothing is not the determinant, rather ones actions.

Again I find two things lacking or objectionable.
First the assumption that this is a “woman” thing. Why is it always only about women… When men make threads about their own problems they are generelly speaking of individual and personal problems. When they make them about women, they are often generel and I hardly ever see the same kinds of threads made by men about men… like “How should men dress, act, talk etc… to avoid impurity of mind, actions, drawing undue attention, how should they dress modestly etc…”
The other one is the assumption that there is a moral firm line between what is modest and what is not. There is no such thing in clothes unless you draw a minimal line. Eg. Women in India show some of their belly in traditional dresses. In American Catholic circles its fashionable to bash the belly fashion as the most immodest of all. This is a relative and culturally determined oppinion.
As for actions… again its about the intent.
I remember one time my priest mentioned to me that some women flirt intentionally with priests and give them “that look”. And I was thinking… what look? what if I gave that look? yikes, what look?
See, I like to look people in the eye and smile, but even that the pervert can make into a sleasy invitation. Eg…
My Arabic boyfriend said to me: “Don’t look men in the eye and smile in this country (Palestine) they will think you are cheep”.
I told him I would never stop smiling at people and that such thinking was their problem, not mine.

 

[elts1956]

Great movie! We just got a copy from Netflix recently.Too bad, though the film doesn’t show what Pope Pius actually did to help the Jews during WWII.But perhaps the director was unaware of all the facts.
I like wearing a mantilla for Mass, too.Helps me, in a practical way, to remember I am in the presence of God & in a sacred place.
Still don’t understand if they have a dress code at the Vatican for men & women, why can’t we have the same at our parish churches?

There is still more information coming out regarding Pope Pius XII and his actions during WWII. I think that recently more info. has been found in an Austrian monestery.

As to the mantillas, the “spirit” of Vat. II just whisked them right off our heads.

 

[Sarabande]

As for actions… again its about the intent.
I remember one time my priest mentioned to me that some women flirt intentionally with priests and give them “that look”. And I was thinking… what look? what if I gave that look? yikes, what look?
See, I like to look people in the eye and smile, but even that the pervert can make into a sleasy invitation. Eg…
My Arabic boyfriend said to me: “Don’t look men in the eye and smile in this country (Palestine) they will think you are cheep”.
I told him I would never stop smiling at people and that such thinking was their problem, not mine.

This is interesting because when it comes to actions, men and women do have different perceptions of what certain actions mean. Of course, there are always blatant moves or looks, but I think most of the time people’s actions are innocent.

I like to smile a lot and I used to say hello to everyone. But when I was in college, I found out that men would think that by being my naturally friendly self they thought I was totally into them. And my naive self didn’t realize that until my husband (boyfriend at the time) pointed it out to me what men (and this is the word he used - not me) “stupidly” assumed. He used “stupidly” because he said he was guilty of that as well and he realized that nice, friendly girls were just that - nice and friendly to everyone. He said that most men in college were used to seeing beautiful girls who were miserable to them, so when they came across a pretty or beautiful young woman who was a happy and nice person, they immediately think in their subconcious mind, “She friendly = she must be interested in me.” Actually, he thought that I was interested in him at first because I was friendly to him as well and at that point I wasn’t interested in dating anyone and never dated anyone prior to college. We were friends for two years before we dated and I had to turn him down the first time around because he was listening to all his male friends, encouraging him to ask me out.

This isn’t just one way either. It happens with women as well. Many of us, especially when we’re younger and in that dating stage looking for a mate, will perceive certain actions of men as being interested in us and it doesn’t mean anything at all. We read into everything as well. I think with younger people it is just a matter of maturing and realizing that not every action or look means anything.

In regards to your story about that priest… I’d like to know “that look” as well because I don’t ever want to be accused of that. Although, I have to say, I used to work in a parish where many of the women (Mostly the middle-aged and old women) totally fawned over the youngish (40s) priest. It didn’t help when he wore these muscle shirts that showed off his well-defined, muscular arms when he’d work out. These women would practically melt. I’d be like, “He’s a priest! Why are you fawning over him?” It was kind of disgusting to me.

 

[Serap]

Such would not seem to coincide with Our Lord’s teachings on leading others into sin. If we know our fellow man has difficulty in regards to a certain sin, and do nothing but simply reply, “it is their problem, let them fend for themselves”, we are being seriously negligent in our charitable responsibility. I would think leading someone purposely to sin is even worse than for the person who actually ends up committing the sin. To be the cause of the spiraling evil which ultimately sprouted from our own actions, whether willful or through inattentiveness or negligence.
Very true however that men (and all people) need to take responsibility for their actions.

Oh come on! Are you serious!? That is such a backlash to women’s dignity if I ever heard one!

Blame the woman…it sounds so muslim to me!

We’ve already established that most women who dress provocatively do so in ignorance of their sinning. I hate this ‘blame the woman’ mentality…it really sucks. Jesus had dinner with prostitutes, remember???

If you’re the “holy” one and the girl is ignorant (usually it’s a young girl), you should be treating her with kindness and respect regardless of what she’s wearing!

 

[Serap]

And men who can not look away from occasions of sin might want to wear blinders-but that might draw undue attention…

Lobster,

This person is being sarcastic b/c your attitude is not one of the attitude that Jesus would have had…one of compassion, understanding, empathy…

As we established, the young women who dress that way are doing so in ignorance. They like the attention, yes, but they are young (90% of the time) and they are not aware of their sin because they have been brainwashed by MTV.

 

[GraceDK]

… they are young (90% of the time) and they are not aware of their sin because they have been brainwashed by MTV.

If indeed they sin…
There is a lot of cultural perception in this. There is also difference between how men of different cultures, religions and back ground view a woman in various clothes. When I wear a scarf my family members make fun of me, they see no modesty in it. Its unfathomable to them why anyone would be intolerant of a bikini. I assure you, such topic would be totally a stranger to my parents even, and they are traditionalist by European standard. Here we just dont view things the way many of you do.
Also there is no doubt in European mindset that no matter what a woman wears, or how she acts, if she is raped, the man is the culprit. No ifs and but’s.
I really liked the post where someone pointed out the difference in European and American dress code among Catholics. It was refreshing, because it explains why I, as a European sometimes find CAF threads about modesty to be suffocating and pharisaical. Probably because men and women are taught to view the body differently than Americans (I speak of Catholics) and I might add, we are indeed taught that the pharisees worried much about cleaning their hands (ablution) and eating kosher, wearing wide garments and having strict Shabbat rules but they lacked the charity and were really like graves in the eyes of God.
We cannot judge non-christian people according to our own world views when it comes to certain things, simply because they are not under the laws that we, rightfully or not, have placed on ourselves.

 

[Catholictrain]

I am a man. If I may weigh in on this subject… it is incumbent upon BOTH men and women to dress modestly. I may be in the minority, but I don’t want to see a man with a thin dress shirt on with no undershirt… just like I don’t want to see a woman who wears revealing clothing. Do I really think that a woman who sees my chest hair is going to be tempted? I don’t know for sure, but I would like to err on the side of safety in this case. Besides, I may be tempted towards the sin of pride if I think my body is so desirable that I could tempt another. Humble recognition of our own human frailty is the way I think best.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Lobster,

This person is being sarcastic b/c your attitude is not one of the attitude that Jesus would have had…one of compassion, understanding, empathy…

As we established, the young women who dress that way are doing so in ignorance. They like the attention, yes, but they are young (90% of the time) and they are not aware of their sin because they have been brainwashed by MTV.

Thanks! Appreciate your points & other posters who have responded in a similar level headed & compassionate way.
I was trying to be humorous which is a bit more courteous than saying I find the topic of the thread bordering on creepiness & misogyny.