How sufficient does the CC deem the Scriptures?

[JoyToBeCatholic]

…as a parent, I would view something troubling in my relationship with my children if they didn’t feel they could come directly to me for their needs.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

as a parent, I would view something troubling in my relationship with my children if they didn’t feel they could come directly to me for their needs.

I agree to a point but. . .
what if my son asked one of his sisters to speak with him or for him? He’s still ‘asking me’ as the final authority but he likes reinforcement. This also helps build love and trust among the siblings, doesn’t it? Further, when they really want to get me to think things through, they’ll ask Grandma to ask along with them.

Now this isn’t really any different than asking the saints and Mary to ‘add their prayers’ TO ours.

Everything goes to God ultimately–we don’t go “to Mary” as the be-all-and-end-all but rather as a child ‘brings in’ grandma to help further his request to Mom/Dad. Ditto for the saints, our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bottom line is that by including the saints ‘horizontally’ with us, as brothers and sisters, we are extending our human family interaction (God is God of the living, not the dead).

Including the saints and Mary is not “either we speak to God and God alone, or not”. . .nowhere is it ever said that we could, or indeed must, speak ‘to God alone’; rather it is often stressed that we should be praying for, and with, one another. Instead, it is a both/and: We always and ultimately speak to God, to God as our sole arbitor. . .AND we speak with our brothers and sisters in Christ. We’re a family, we’re not separated from each other, on earth or in heaven.

 

[Brendan]

Ok, the prayer issue is slightly o.t., but I would like to clarify something:

Is it okay to pray (ask) a saint for anything other than intercessory prayer?

You can ask a saint for any holy thing that you might ask another human to do.

IOW, what is the purpose of praying to/asking a saint anyway? If God is my Father, why am I asking other people for things? If I need something from Daddy, why can’t I confidently go directly to Him? Why in heaven’s name do I need to ask a friend to ask my Father for me???

Thanks

What is the purpose of asking another human to pray for you?

Would you ask a friend to pray for you if you are having a hard time? If so, why? Why not go directly to God and not involve your friend at all? Or your pastor, or a parent? Why should anyone pray for someone else.

Mostly because God told us to do that, James said “pray for one another”. Since that is a Command from God, why would someone in Heaven stop obeying God’s Commands

 

[Brendan]

…as a parent, I would view something troubling in my relationship with my children if they didn’t feel they could come directly to me for their needs.

How about if several of your children came to you with the same need?

 

[VociMike]

The pope, no? He has the final say. The orthodox believe it is the bishops, but the RCC - the Pope. Correct me if wrong.

This is incorrect. Vatican Council II, for example, was not a one-man (pope) show. No Church Councils were.

It tells me there are many people, Catholic and non-Catholic that refuse to obey the Bible (as there are millions of people who do not wish to obey the CC). It tells me there are professing Christians in all walks of life, culture and denominations who make the Bible mean what they want it to.

That answer doesn’t move the discussion forward at all. How can one know which “bible-only” teachings are correct, and which are false teachings espoused by those who “refuse to obey the Bible”? The plain fact is, one can’t know. One can only apply their own human judgement, and human judgement is capable of (stupendous) error.

The situation of the Catholic Church is entirely different. There are Catholics who disobey and misrepresent the teachings of the Church, but that doesn’t change the fact of those teachings. It is not difficult to find the true teachings of the Catholic Church. It is, on the other hand, impossible to find, or even speak about, the true teachings of “bible-only” believers. There simply is no such body of teachings.

He had no sacraments or church either. God is supreme. He can do as He pleases. He’s not limited to the church.

Nobody is suggesing that God is limited. What is suggested (and you would agree, I’m sure) is that God has given us one surest path. We say it’s the Church (which includes the bible). You say it’s just the bible.

 

[guanophore]

I definately have a mental block with this and I’m trying to understand…

Scripture itself says it is “sufficient”.

Where do you find that?

Ok, but since the church deemed certain apostolic writings to be canon (a rule of measure), and since Scripture even declares itself to be “sufficient”, why should we accept things outside of it?

One of the standards used to determine which books should make up the canon is whether they were accepted by Jesus and the apostles, and whether the early fathers accepted them as such. It is the church that decided which books should be included in the canon, not the other way around.

I suppose the teachings of the church (canon law - theres that word “canon” again) are on par with Scripture then? Why not just add them to the Bible then? I’m sincerely asking, not trying to be wise…

There are differerent levels of infallibility recognized in the church. If you search this thread, you can find some good posts on it.

 

[Larry1700]

JoyToBeCatholic,

I hope your taxes are going okay. I don’t look forward to this time of year, but Quicken’s TurboTax helps a litte.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you a fundamental question, and depending on your answer, move on from there. And please don’t think I’m being facetious. I’m just trying to firmly establish what your foundation is.

My question is this…
What part(s) of the Bible do you believe is(are) absolutely true and God-inspired?

 

[Randy_Carson]

…as a parent, I would view something troubling in my relationship with my children if they didn’t feel they could come directly to me for their needs.

Sure. Unless you left them with a babysitter to whom you had given authority to dispense popcorn during “Finding Nemo”.

Then, it would be perfectly okay for the kids to ask the sitter for popcorn instead of calling your cell phone and interupting your evening out with your spouse.

Catholics don’t feel they can’t go to God…they just know that the prayers of a righteous
(wo)man availeth much…so they enlist some extra “prayer partners” who are so righteous, they’re already in God’s presence!

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Atemi]

No, it is exactly the same word.

No it is not.

You are using an Old English term that no one uses anymore. That English word only meant “ask,” plain and simple, no matter who you were asking.

In that case anyone can ask anyone else anything. That is not prayer.

You do not ask to the Saints or Mary. You pray to them.

If you subsititute “ask” for “pray” above, it is rendered meaningless.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Ug! I am overwhelmed at the responses, and it’s taking me all night just to respond to one…

I understand what you’re all saying about asking others for prayer. Yes, James tells us to prayer for one another. I often ask myself why (not b/c I think we shouldn’t) Honestly, why pray at all? (other than obedience to the Scriptures) If God knows all and trusting in His divine providence, why would I need to pray at all? I reckon it’s b/c God could easily orchestrate everything to have a perfect outcome, but he allows suffering (for so, so many reasons) one reason being that He wants us to recognize our dependence on Him, another reason being that He wants us to have a relationship with Him. But why would someone, already perfected (in Heaven) need to do this? They already have a relationship with God (now much closer than ours) and, obviously they recognize(d) their dependence on God. Why do they need to pray at all?

Larry, my taxes went well. I thought we’d owe and we’re getting a nice sum back instead! :extrahappy: YAHOO!!!

My question is this…
What part(s) of the Bible do you believe is(are) absolutely true and God-inspired?

You’re gonna ask me “which version” next, eh?

I believe everything that is essential to our salvation has been preserved sans Deuts. I believe everything that is essential to our salvation has been preserved. Period. I recognize that there are many versions of the Bible, and if I believe God’s promise to preserve His Word, I have to believe that all Bibles (aside from the few, obviously distorted versions. And please, don’t ask me to publically give you an example as I don’t want to offend anyone who may be lurking) contain the God-inspired truth.

Sure. Unless you left them with a babysitter to whom you had given authority to dispense popcorn during “Finding Nemo”.

This is so funny, b/c when I got home from getting my taxes done, my children were watching “Finding Nemo”

Honestly, I’m pondering the whole prayer thing…

I’ve gotta sign off now folks.

Bless You!

 

[Larry1700]

I believe everything that is essential to our salvation has been preserved sans Deuts.

Forgive my stupidity, but what is “Deuts?”

The point of my question is this:
In an earlier post (maybe on another thread) I recall you saying you didn’t want to read scripture for fear it would make you doubt your conscience. (If I’m misquoting, I sincerely apologize.) So, if you believe the Bible is indeed God-inspired, then shouldn’t you go to it, instead of avoiding it?

To expedite my point without drawing it out into several threads, I’m simply trying to say that if the God-inspired Bible tells us what Church Jesus established, and to whom He gave the authority to shepherd His flock, then why would you leave that Church? I fully understand that there are wonderful people outside of the Church, and it is very disappointing that the people of His Church don’t always act the way they should, but that does not change the fact that it is the Church He established for us. And don’t forget, Jesus said that the wheat would grow with the tares, and they would be separated in the end.

Stay with the Church Jesus established, and be a part of the wheat.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Forgive my stupidity, but what is “Deuts?”

Deuterocanonicals. The books in dispute between Catholics and Protestants.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

But why would someone, already perfected (in Heaven) need to do this? They already have a relationship with God (now much closer than ours) and, obviously they recognize(d) their dependence on God. Why do they need to pray at all?

First, their prayer might be more correctly described as worship. Here on earth, we worship, praise, give thanks, offer petitions and seek answers to questions.

Of course, they also pray for us…they don’t need to pray for themselves nor do we need to pray for them.

Saints in heaven and the saints on Earth can also pray for the souls in Purgatory.

I’m told that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us but not for themselves…that’s why they need our prayers.

Didn’t your mother ever tell you to “Offer it up for the souls in purgatory who have no one to pray for them.”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

The CC says I can’t understand the Bible.

No wonder you are looking elsewhere if you believe this! This is just false.

So I have to choose to put my trust in its magisterium to know the truth (according to the CC). I have to make a choice. I have to make an evaluation of both and decide which to follow. Go against my conscience and biblical convictions and believe the high claims of the church, or…

What it says is that, if there appears to be a contradiction, then it is a shortage of understanding. A lot of us tend to lack humility, and think that we can grasp things as well or better than the persons to whom God chose to reveal them.

 

[guanophore]

Ok, the prayer issue is slightly o.t., but I would like to clarify something:

Is it okay to pray (ask) a saint for anything other than intercessory prayer? IOW, what is the purpose of praying to/asking a saint anyway? If God is my Father, why am I asking other people for things? If I need something from Daddy, why can’t I confidently go directly to Him? Why in heaven’s name do I need to ask a friend to ask my Father for me???

Thanks

Don’t you have any friends who are pious? I read in your other post that only religious you knew seemed so? Perhaps you have passionate protestant brothers and sisters? Are you saying there is NO ONE in you life whose prayer life you admire? NO ONE of whom you would say “will you pray with me”?

 

[Larry1700]

Deuterocanonicals. The books in dispute between Catholics and Protestants.

Of course! :doh2: Hey, it’s late, for cryin’ out loud!

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Of course! :doh2: Hey, it’s late, for cryin’ out loud!

Partially my fault. The “sans” part prolly made it sound like a French delicacy

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

The point of my question is this:
In an earlier post (maybe on another thread) I recall you saying you didn’t want to read scripture for fear it would make you doubt your conscience. (If I’m misquoting, I sincerely apologize.) So, if you believe the Bible is indeed God-inspired, then shouldn’t you go to it, instead of avoiding it?

Yes, I suppose I should, but like I said in the thread, I came back to the CC; felt I had enough faith (at the time) to take the church’s word for it. In so doing, I have to avoid the Bible like the plague though or I know I’m going to be plagued with doubt much worse than I currently do and wind up leaving again. At this time I’m trying to avoid that and understand better these Catholic things, and so avoiding reading scripture. Naturally, though, there’s plenty of Scripture fresh in my memory that is eating away at my conscience.

To expedite my point without drawing it out into several threads, I’m simply trying to say that if the God-inspired Bible tells us what Church Jesus established, and to whom He gave the authority to shepherd His flock, then why would you leave that Church?

Well, it’s not that simple when we disagree aboaut the whole apostolic succession and continuity in the faith thing.

I fully understand that there are wonderful people outside of the Church, and it is very disappointing that the people of His Church don’t always act the way they should, but that does not change the fact that it is the Church He established for us. And don’t forget, Jesus said that the wheat would grow with the tares, and they would be separated in the end.

You see this scripture referring to the chuch, others see it as referring to the world.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

First, their prayer might be more correctly described as worship.

And our prayers on earth aren’t? There definately is a difference in how we view prayer.

Here on earth, we worship, praise, give thanks, offer petitions and seek answers to questions.

Any form of prayer I can think of is a type of worship. If it’s a prayer of praise I would hope it is only directed to God. If it’s a prayer of petition, again, I can’t understand why it would be directed to anyone other than God. It seems the whole purpose of our praying in the first place is to acknowledge God’s sovereignty. I don’t want to bypss that to pray to something or someone else.

Of course, they also pray for us…they don’t need to pray for themselves nor do we need to pray for them.

Saints in heaven and the saints on Earth can also pray for the souls in Purgatory.

I’m told that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us but not for themselves…that’s why they need our prayers.

Didn’t your mother ever tell you to “Offer it up for the souls in purgatory who have no one to pray for them.”
:tiphat:

No, my parents weren’t practicing Catholics (at least, they weren’t after I was born). My dad was almost a priest though, yet my whole family abandoned God after the death of a child in our family.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

No wonder you are looking elsewhere if you believe this! This is just false.

What it says is that, if there appears to be a contradiction, then it is a shortage of understanding.

That’s what the JWs tried to convince me .

A lot of us tend to lack humility, and think that we can grasp things as well or better than the persons to whom God chose to reveal them.

I don’t claim to have the corner market on the interpretation of the Bible. Few churches do make that claim, and the ones that do? Well, that could be seen as a lack of humility too, no?