How sufficient does the CC deem the Scriptures?

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Don’t you have any friends who are pious? I read in your other post that only religious you knew seemed so? Perhaps you have passionate protestant brothers and sisters? Are you saying there is NO ONE in you life whose prayer life you admire? NO ONE of whom you would say “will you pray with me”?

Others have offered to pray for me, and I’ve asked others to pray for me. The difference I see between this and praying to saints etc. is, as I’ve stated in previous posts, that we, as pilgrims in this life, and in the imperfect state we are in, need to pray. We grow in love (and in essence are being sanctified) by doing so. The glorified in heaven no longer need to ask. They are constantly acknowledging God’s sovereignt and have complete trust in His providence over our lives and everything in the universe!

 

[Brendan]

No it is not.

You are using an Old English term that no one uses anymore. That English word only meant “ask,” plain and simple, no matter who you were asking.

Really? So why does Websters say the word means ‘to ask’ (see my link above)

In fact, according to Webster, it’s only in the secondary intransitive sense that the word deals with metaphysics

 

[Brendan]

Others have offered to pray for me, and I’ve asked others to pray for me. The difference I see between this and praying to saints etc. is, as I’ve stated in previous posts, that we, as pilgrims in this life, and in the imperfect state we are in, need to pray. We grow in love (and in essence are being sanctified) by doing so. The glorified in heaven no longer need to ask. They are constantly acknowledging God’s sovereignt and have complete trust in His providence over our lives and everything in the universe!

Then why did Christ pray? Was Christ Himself imperfect?

Christ prays for us, the perfected Saints continue to pray, not for themselves, but for us. They are the perfect imitators of Christ.

It would be SO wrong to claim that the sanctified in Heaven no longer need to ask, just because they personally are perfected. That would mean they have no concerns other than themselves (which would hardly be Christian)

Hebrews says they are witnesses to our struggle. Do you really think they are so heartless to as to not care about us anymore? That they would not pray for us, because THEY are already perfect and thus too far above us to care about us anymore???

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The question posed in the OP seems to me not to be a genuine question requesting an answer.

It seems to me to be an overture to convert us to an individual, unsubstantiated point of view. It also raises some questions of its own as to whether it is in compliance with the forum rules, particularly:

1. 
   *]Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
   *]Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

1. 
   The persistence with which our answers are dismissed (without substantiation – I am still waiting for a link) doesn’t seem particularly respectful of Catholicism to me, particularly since many of the assumptions on which the OP’s point of view are based have arisen from a lack of accurate knowledge about Catholicism.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Again, regarding prayer…

How do you view prayer?

Why would I pray to heaven (God, angels, saints, etc.) for something I can ask my eartly brothers and sisters for? Someone said we can pray to the saints/angels for anything we would ask our earthly brothers and sisters for. But why would I do that?

If I’m going to appeal to heaven for something, it is going to be for something only God can provide in the first place. It seems pointless to ask anyone other than God for it. “Hey sis, I’m hungry. Go ask Dad if He’ll give me a something to eat”. ???

The point is that when we need something beyone what our earthly friends and family can provide it is only God who can provide it anyway. That’s why petitioning prayer is still worship IMO b/c you have to acknowledge that the thing you are asking for is going to have to come from the sovereign God Almighty and not from anyone else in the first place, and acknowledging God’s sovereignty IS worship.

In any case, and my original point: I do not see Scripture anywhere condoning the practice of praying (in light of what I’ve just said about prayer and worship) to anyone other than the Father. I definately do not see it from the Scripture examples that have already been given. We are definately going to have to agree to disagree about that.

The only possible explanation I am willing to accept is that we ask others to pray for us, but that throws my whole understanding of prayer out and leaves me asking the same question my agnostic (at the very best) husband always asks:

Why do we need to pray at all? (My answer would be: so we can have a relationship with our creator. But, if we can pray to others in heaven instead, it seems God gets the short end of the stick)

Bear with me, I’m trying to understand this.

Peace.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

The question posed in the OP seems to me not to be a genuine question requesting an answer.

It seems to me to be an overture to convert us to a personal and unsubstantiated point of view.

That doesn’t seem particularly respectful of Catholicism to me, particularly since many of the assumptions on which the OP’s point of view are based have arisen from a lack of knowledge of what Catholicism actually is about.

Pardon me, but it is a genuine question. I am expressing my thoughts; playing the devil’s advocate (with myself and aloud) if you will. If you or anyone else is being persuaded by my point of view that was not my intention. I don’t have an agenda, I’m just asking the questions that I’ve not, until now, ever asked before. I haven’t even stopped going to mass yet! I am presenting my non-Catholic points of view so I can re-evaluate them. I have a very good knowledge of Catholicism actually though I’m no scholar. I simply see two possibilities and am not ready to embrace either one just yet.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Bear with me, I’m trying to understand this.

You have not persuaded me that you are trying to understand this.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

The question posed in the OP seems to me not to be a genuine question requesting an answer.

It seems to me to be an overture to convert us to an individual, unsubstantiated point of view. It also raises some questions of its own as to whether it is in compliance with the forum rules, particularly:

The persistence with which our answers are dismissed (without substantiation – I am still waiting for a link) doesn’t seem particularly respectful of Catholicism to me, particularly since many of the assumptions on which the OP’s point of view are based have arisen from a lack of accurate knowledge about Catholicism.

This is really sickening. What link are you talking about??? Dismissed answers?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I’ve addressed every single one of them! Just because I haven’t decided to embrace your points of view doesn’t mean I’ve dismissed them! I am just giving you my current opinion of them!

For crying out loud, I like to use my god-given intelligence and ponder the answers I am given… You aren’t going to convert ME overnight yah know!

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You have not persuaded me that you are trying to understand this.

Whatever. I don’t need to either. How narrowminded and judgemental you are. God forgive you.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

If the moderator feels I’ve been out of line in some way, just tell me. I don’t know any way of presenting the non-Catholic points of view I’ve developed without offending some of you. They say the only thing worse than a non-Catholic’s opinion of the church is a former Catholic’s opinion of it.

Anyway, I am sorry this is offensive. I used to be afraid of offending God by my doubts too, but I know God knows my heart and my intentions. I’m sorry it offends you, but it really isn’t my fault that you are. If you were strong in your faith you would see me as someone who is in danger of abandoning the fullness of truth.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pardon me, but it is a genuine question. I am expressing my thoughts; playing the devil’s advocate (with myself and aloud) if you will. If you or anyone else is being persuaded by my point of view that was not my intention. I don’t have an agenda, I’m just asking the questions that I’ve not, until now, ever asked before. I haven’t even stopped going to mass yet! I am presenting my non-Catholic points of view so I can re-evaluate them. I have a very good knowledge of Catholicism actually though I’m no scholar. I simply see two possibilities and am not ready to embrace either one just yet.

You have not persuaded me of this. For you to persuade me of this you would have to actually discuss the points we have raised rather than dismissing them out of hand and moving on to other points of difference. You would also have to substantiate your point of view, which you have not done.

That would make this a discussion.

If you do have a very good knowledge of Catholicism, then perhaps you can demonstrate this by setting out the Catholic answers to your own questions – and then, if you wish, refuting those Catholic answers.

As for being no scholar, Sr Clare Fitzgerald (an outstanding Catholic and an outstanding American scholar) said this at an address in Renfrew Ontario:

To be Catholic is to be intellectual. As educators, this means we’ve got to love learning – that’s the ballpark we’re playing in…

That’s the ballpark we’re playing in!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

They say the only thing worse than a non-Catholic’s opinion of the church is a former Catholic’s opinion of it.

‘They’ say? Who are ‘they’ exactly?

Imho, if Karl Keating’s new project Wolves in Sheeps Clothing is any indicator, the opinion on the church of those claiming to be Catholic – but who have little knowledge of the Church and less love for it – is probably the worst of the three.

After all, how sharp the sting of betrayal that rears its head from trusting friendship?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You have not persuaded me of this. For you to persuade me of this you would have to actually discuss the points we have raised rather than dismissing them out of hand and moving on to other points of difference. You would also have to substantiate your point of view, which you have not done.

That would make this a discussion.

Wow. Ok… This misunderstanding is going to take a lot of time to resolve, and I don’t have a whole lot of time today to dedicate to trying to resolve it. You obviously need to be specific as to what points I have dismissed and why, exactly, you believe they were dismissed. Many different things have been brought up and touched on briefly b/c some of it takes us o.t. and b/c there simply isn’t enough time to address everything to the extent it probably should be. I also don’t know what you mean about substantiating my point of view. I’m having a casual conversation. How do I prove that my opinions are from my head??? Do you somehow think I’m pulling stuff off of websites or something?

If you do have a very good knowledge of Catholicism, then perhaps you can demonstrate this by setting out the Catholic answers to your own questions – and then, if you wish, refuting those Catholic answers.

B/c that would be ridiculously time-consuming. But if you wish, from here on out, I will try to the best of my ability to state my Catholic answers and then my non-Catholic opinion, k? Also, although I have a pretty good understanding of Catholic teaching, I am (obviously) not as knowledgeable of the teachings on scripture, hence the reason I started this thread.

As for being no scholar, Sr Clare Fitzgerald (an outstanding Catholic and an outstanding American scholar) said this at an address in Renfrew Ontario:

That’s the ballpark we’re playing in!
You bet. That’s what I came here for in the first place! I’m just trying to learn.

Now please be specific about what points I’ve dismissed.

Thanks

Peace

 

[Randy_Carson]

And our prayers on earth aren’t? There definately is a difference in how we view prayer. Any form of prayer I can think of is a type of worship.

There are different types of prayer. From “lower” to “higher”:

Petition is for our own needs and the needs of others.
Thanksgiving is in response to answers and blessings we have received.
Praise is in recognition of God’s deeds and His inherent attributes.
Worship is loving absorption in Him.

I think the saints talk about a deeper prayer and then there is the whole beatific vision thing. I’m not there, yet.

However, clearly all prayer is not worship.

That said, you can ask me to pray for a sick child or a new job opportunity that you are considering…you can ask your “prayer partners” in heaven to pray for you also.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

‘They’ say? Who are ‘they’ exactly?

You sure are technical aren’t you? From a Catholic viewpoint, I would wager a guess that you’d agree that someone who has never been Catholic at all is a far smaller threat to Catholicism than someone who once was but no longer believes. (Hint: Luther)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

There are different types of prayer. From “lower” to “higher”:

Petition is for our own needs and the needs of others.
Thanksgiving is in response to answers and blessings we have received.
Praise is in recognition of God’s deeds and His inherent attributes.
Worship is loving absorption in Him.

I hate to be a wiseguy in asking this (in light of the accusation I just recieved), but can you “substantiate” these definitions?
Honestly, can’t petition, thanksgiving and praise all be forms of worship? Aren’t they all directed to God ultimately?

I think the saints talk about a deeper prayer and then there is the whole beatific vision thing. I’m not there, yet.

Yeah, let’s not get too deep. I’m having a hard enough time with the basics on the understanding of prayer

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

For the record, this is the only post (that I know of) that I haven’t responded to (yet) and, Ani, that is b/c I don’t necessarily answer everything in the order it comes to me and I take my time responding to each one. Just clarifying this in case you based your accusation that I’ve been dismissing posts on the fact that this one wasn’t yet addressed.

Anyway…

Then why did Christ pray? Was Christ Himself imperfect?

I knew this would come up. It came to my mind last night too. Christ was fully human though. Christ also didn’t need to be baptised did He?

It would be SO wrong to claim that the sanctified in Heaven no longer need to ask, just because they personally are perfected. That would mean they have no concerns other than themselves (which would hardly be Christian)

Does it mean that? Or does is just mean that they know God is handling it perfectly already. If anything, they are probably praying for us that we will pray to God! Hopeful that we will do as they do and acknowledge His sovereignty. How perfectly happy we’d all be if we had that perfect surrender to God’s divine providence! (substantiation: Jean-Pierre de Caussade’s - Self-Abandonment to Divine Providence - from my head). I’ll bet the elect in heaven are just praying like crazy that we will recognize this, for the glory of God and for the peace and joy we’d possess in practicing it!

 

[Brendan]

Anyway… I knew this would come up. It came to my mind last night too. Christ was fully human though. Christ also didn’t need to be baptised did He?

Yes Christ was (and IS) fully human. But so are the saints. Was Christ on Earth any less perfected than the saints in Heaven? Was He an imperfect human?? And if a perfect Christ would pray for us, so will the saints, as they imitate Christ.

Does it mean that? Or does is just mean that they know God is handling it perfectly already.

But didn’t Christ Himself also know that God was handling things perfectly. But He still prayed that God might strenghten Peter

(Luke 22:31-32)

Cannot the saints do the same. Why cannot we ask them to join their prayers to ours that we might too be strenghened?

I’ll bet the elect in heaven are just praying like crazy that we will recognize this, for the glory of God and for the peace and joy we’d possess in practicing it!

Great!! You are recognizing the certitude and value of intercessory prayer

(and one other thing, Christ didn’t NEED to be Baptized, He did so as an example to us, to show us what we needed to do. Kinda like Him praying )

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Yes Christ was (and IS) fully human. But so are the saints. Was Christ on Earth any less perfected than the saints in Heaven? Was He an imperfect human?? And if a perfect Christ would pray for us, so will the saints, as they imitate Christ.

But didn’t Christ Himself also know that God was handling things perfectly. But He still prayed that God might strenghten Peter

(Luke 22:31-32)

Cannot the saints do the same. Why cannot we ask them to join their prayers to ours that we might too be strenghened?

Great!! You are recognizing the certitude and value of intercessory prayer

Yeah, I realized that when I posted it but I’m still not sure its the same thing…

(and one other thing, Christ didn’t NEED to be Baptized, He did so as an example to us, to show us what we needed to do. Kinda like Him praying )

Yes, that was my point. And you have a good one too (about the saints imitating him). Pondering that one…

I want to look at this more, but I gotta go. I want to address your first points a little more deeply. ttyl

Bless You

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…what is the purpose of praying to/asking a saint anyway? If God is my Father, why am I asking other people for things? If I need something from Daddy, why can’t I confidently go directly to Him? Why in heaven’s name do I need to ask a friend to ask my Father for me???

Why did St. Paul ask other members of Christ’s body to pray for him? Because the prayer of the righteous availeth much, according to Holy Writ, right?

What is the purpose of asking the Father, who knows what you ask for before you ask it? I submit that the purpose is for YOU. It is an act of faith to pray to the Father. It is an affirmation of His existence and a willful submission by you to Him.

Likewise, when we ask angels and saints (or other brethren) to pray for us, we affirm something about or Creed, about that which we believe. We affirm that we are not alone, but belown to a communion of saints, which includes heavenly angels and heavenly saints, who are are alive in Christ, and continue to minister to all those in Christ offering prayers to the Father.

Rev 5:8 "the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. "

So, Scripture tells us that we “have come” (past tense) to the “heavenly Jerusalem.” (Heb 12:22). How? There’s only one way, being caught up “in the Spirit.” (Rev 1:10). Heavenly Jersusalem is a CITY of God, right?

** Heb 12:22-24 **“But you have come[PAST TENSE] to Mount Zion and to the CITY of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, AND to innumerable ANGELS in festal gathering, AND to the ASSEMBLY of the first-born who are enrolled IN HEAVEN, AND to a judge who is GOD of all, AND to the SPIRITS OF THE JUST men made perfect, AND to JESUS, the mediator of a new covenant”

Chrisitian HAVE COME to a CITY. Notice how it does not say God OR angels OR saints, but instead it says that city includes God AND angels AND saints. It’s almost as if they are all ONE, a COMMUNION OF SAINTS.

Sounds very Catholic.

You asked: " why would we look to pray to anyone other than the Father?" Answer: the very SUFFICIENT Scritpures tells us that we HAVE COME (past tense) to a CITY of God, which includes God AND angels AND saints. The prayers of the righteous within this city availeth much.