How the Mormon Church Now Explains the Translation of the Book of Mormon

[Chris-Wa1]

It’s a fair question/observation. I served a two-year mission from 1976-1978. Never did we teach anything but Joseph translating the plates while they sat there right in front of him on a table with a cloth or towel draped in between him and Oliver (or whoever was the scribe at the time). The picture we had in our old “flip chart” showed Joe running his finger over the inscriptions while carefully translating, character by character. It was also mentioned that he used the urim and thummim as well, but NEVER a seer stone. I’m convinced that the Church would never have taught anything contrary to that were it not for the Internet. I remember back then, one vague suggestion from a knowledgeable member that Joseph might have also used a seer stone that he had found in a well, while his face was buried in a hat. But that was not broadly taught anywhere.

Well according to the LDS posters on this thread, the membership had every opportunity to sift through old church magazine articles to find out about how Joseph used a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, so I guess there was no reason for you to teach it to converts when you gave that lesson. Or maybe it was your fault. Didn’t you know that just two years before you started your mission there was an article about seer stones in a church magazine? How lazy of you to not have read every church article ever written so you could have the knowledge that the church obviously wanted everybody to know. Clearly you did not exhibit “extraordinary commitment” when you were a missionary.

And maybe the picture of Joseph burying his head in a hat got lost at the printers. Or maybe they just didn’t want to use the same picture as the one in the lesson about old Joe looking for buried treasure for his clients. That was part of the missionary discussions, right?

 

[Lemuel]

That was part of the missionary discussions, right?

Absolutely. We fit that in between the stories of Fanny Alger and Helen Mar Kimball.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

So strange…when I took the missionary discussions I didn’t get any of those lessons. Maybe it just slipped their minds. Kind of like when you walk around Temple Square in Salt Lake you don’t see any statues or depictions of Joseph’s 49 other wives. We wouldn’t want prospective converts to know about them, would we?

 

[Horton]

That being said, what in your opinion is the difference between the BOM coming from a seer stone or a pair of stones set in a bow that LDS often envisioned as some type of glasses? Does looking through miraculously provided glasses or looking through a stone really change the extraordinary nature of the story?

The difference isn’t what was used it’s more a matter of one more thing that was lied about previously and now the LDS have to walk it back.

 

[Lemuel]

Go across the street to the Joseph Smith memorial. They claim to have one of Joseph’s bedposts. It has about 60 notches in it.

 

[Gertabelle]

Go across the street to the Joseph Smith memorial. They claim to have one of Joseph’s bedposts. It has about 60 notches in it.

Yikes.

May God have mercy on his soul.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I honestly believe that the “powers that be” within the LDS church only stay in place because of the immense power and wealth they have, not because they actually believe what they tell the laity.

Some know, some look the other way. Their lives are so totally vested in the church that to consider anything else is probably unthinkable. There are two camps within the leadership. One wants to open things up and be more transparent. The other holds the hardline–stick to the story. You can tell which one is dominant by who gets put into the higher positions. Thus far it’s been the hardliners. But they all have to know in varying degrees that things are only getting worse as more and more information gets exposed to the membership. The internet is their biggest threat.

 

[Lemuel]

There’s a third camp that Spyridon referred to. Those who simply don’t believe it but go along with it anyway. I knew a bishop who was an atheist, but it was easier for him to just go along, in addition to the fact that if he told his wife what he really believed, it would have devastated her. I know a former area authority, now excommunicated, who never believed any of it, but he loved the popularity that comes with being in such a position of authority. I remember an area conference that Boyd K. Packer attended and we were told that we needed to all stand when he entered the room and not sit until he sat. It was an arrogant power thing of his. His nephew, who I was close friends with said, yep, that’s Uncle Boyd for you. I have no doubt that there are many, many others like that. The power and authority of leadership positions in the LDS church is like drugs.

 

[TOmNossor]

What bothers me is that LDS does not seem to be concerned that Joseph Smith used the same methods to translate and to commit fraud… we would call a con man.

First let me say that the idea that Joseph Smith couldn’t find treasure, knew he couldn’t, but convinced people through deception that he could would be problematic. The idea that Joseph Smith use anti-Christian occultic magic to really find treasure (or pretend to find treasure) and used the same occultic magic to translation the BOM would be problematic. My response to you will not force the charitable to agree with me, but I believe it will mitigate these criticism for the charitable critic and satisfy well one inclined by other evidence to believe in the CoJCoLDS.
Joseph existed in a time and place were rodsmen and seers were common, accepted, and in no way viewed as anti-Christian. Which is related to the post to which you responded. I am quite modern and skeptical and have not experienced things I view as magic removed from God AND have not had extraordinary manifestations of God’s power that those around me would be tempted to call magic (and I don’t call them magic either, but they IMO do not align with the naturalistic principles I utilize as an engineer). But, I have experienced God’s power and on rare occasions in extraordinary ways. I shared such with an atheist friend just yesterday and he viewed me with pity that I believed in God. But, I believe.
Joseph evolved significantly over time. Before his BOM time, he was a village seer. When he received the Urim and Thummim, he was familiar with its working and claimed it was much more powerful than his seer stone. Over time, Joseph needed less “props” to focus his mind and receive revelation. Later in his life, he didn’t used anything, instead claiming that he could receive God’s words and will directly.
As extraordinary as it sounds to modern ears, I believe Joseph believed he could see hidden things in his seer stone. His 1826 trial did not result in a conviction and the supposed victim who received no treasure testified on Joseph’s behalf (it is also noteworthy that this “job” resulted in his meeting his Emma). Joseph worked to discourage the continued treasure seeking in this case too. I suppose this could make Joseph an extraordinary conman whose marks remain loyal, but there are volumes of others who attest to Joseph’s sincerity. Not just folks we might dismiss as simpletons either, but a member of congress, a D.C. journalist and others.
So, I believe the best read of history is that Joseph Smith didn’t make volumes of money with his seer stone. He grew from one who did act as a village seer to one who only acted as a prophet gradually. Joseph Smith believed he was a village seer and later believed he was a prophet.
I do not know how much success existed in his village seer endeavors. I do believe that Joseph’s faith in God contributed to his becoming God’s prophet and this faith was born of his experiences IMO including those he had as a village seer. Whether God merely used this or facilitated it, I do not know; but I believe God at least used it.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

I think the biggest change today is that many folks with a casual interest stumble upon things they never considered during an Internet search. These are not folks with extraordinary commitment nor a taste for weighing these questions carefully over a period of time.

Tom, what a load of bunk. You just trivialized the thousands of LDS who have already left or are in the process of leaving the church because they stumbled upon things they never considered during an Internet search. You dismiss them as though they haven’t made the effort to dive deeply into the problem issues. …

Chris,
I have read volumes of such stories. I was not speaking of specific people with whom I have interacted, I was speaking in generalities concerning trends I have seen.
I have not met Jeremy Runnels and I hope if I ever do I will express love for him. That being said it was his type of narrative I thought of as I wrote what I wrote. I have little trouble seeing what Catholics love about Catholicism (this is a conscious choice I make as I know many reasons to not be a Catholic and some of them are very powerful by my weighing). It takes considerable more effort on my part to see Jeremy Runnels as a committed faithful member who lost his faith due to the overwhelming nature of the things he discovered.
I consider myself to be far less “spiritual” than most LDS. I regularly find myself at the end of a week and think that I have failed to look for God’s hand in my life daily as I believe I should. I spent many years as a LDS reading and contemplating anti-Mormon arguments before I even had anything I think aligns with what LDS call spiritual confirmation of the truth. My experience of anti-Mormon and pro-Mormon arguments is that there are problems, but critics cannot explain the existence of the BOM and LDS can explain the problems well enough. So, when I read how strong and faithful someone was before they were overcome by the irresistible truth that Mormonism is a fraud, I balk. It is remarkable to me.
Anyway, I do not try to offend people. Again, if Jeremy stops by my house I expect I will be able to love him. I have met many prominent critics and am friends (more than acquaintances, but have dialogued and connected online). But, here is an article that I think respectfully deals with Jeremy:
https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/e...proaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/
Charity, TOm

 

[Chris-Wa1]

First let me say that the idea that Joseph Smith couldn’t find treasure, knew he couldn’t, but convinced people through deception that he could would be problematic.

Given the fact that he never actually found treasure for anybody, he either knew it was a con or he was insane. Those are the only tenable explanations. The fact that there were enough gullible people around him to buy into it doesn’t change that. That Joseph later left out the seer stone stories from his personal history doesn’t sound like somebody who really believed in them. Seems much more like he knew it was wrong and it wouldn’t look good to his growing number of followers who would not tolerate the occult like his original posse did.

The idea that Joseph Smith use anti-Christian occultic magic to really find treasure (or pretend to find treasure) and used the same occultic magic to translation the BOM would be problematic

He most definitely used occultic magic that had nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity, and instead of dumping it altogether it was also the primary way he translated the BoM. All those who actually witnessed the process say as much.

Yes the frontier was full of kooky people with all kinds of superstitions. Joseph was the among the kookiest. You give him far too much leeway and license, downplaying the more-than-obvious problems in order that he might somehow still be a true prophet. The historical evidence screams fraud, yet somehow you find a way around it with nuanced rationalization.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Here is a much more complete history video on Joseph Smith and seer stones, and how he used them for money digging and to translate the Book of Mormon. It was done by Dan Vogel, a well-known expert on the history of Joseph Smith:

 

[BoomerangToo]

but critics cannot explain the existence of the BOM and LDS can explain the problems well enough.

What do you think of the charge that Smith plagiarized the BOM from “The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain” by Gilbert J. Hunt?

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Tom says that there are no good alternate expalnations for how Joseph produced the Book of Mormon, but there are. Historian Grant Palmer gives a very plausible explanation, certainly more plausible than Joseph Smith dictating from a magical seer stone. Many LDS argue that there is no way Joseph could have produced the book on his own, but they are wrong.

 

[BoomerangToo]

What did Mr. Palmer say?

 

[Chris-Wa1]

He talks about it in this video:

He details it more thoroughly in his book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins.

 

[Lemuel]

Grant Palmer was a great man of integrity who left the Mormon church to become a Christian. RIP.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here’s the thing that the picture of the seer stone reminded me of. That photo is a photo of a photo. When the LDS Church said in 2015, effectively, alright, the seer stone was used and we’ve had it all along. Here’s a photo of it. We’ve all now seen the seer stone with our spiritual eyes. It’s just more bull on top of more bull. Whatever smooooths out the waters.

Joseph Fielding Smith, when asked if the LDS Church had Smith’s seer stone said no, and further that the idea Smith ever used one was a devil’s lie.

It’s all a lie because the BoM came about in natural not supernatural ways. So who cares if the LDS Church says it was seer stones, or magic spectacles or pulled out of nothing. It’s all bunk. Fifty years from now it will be a new story.

 

[Vonsalza]

Mormonism proves that people will believe anything. Seer stones? Ancient submarines?

It’s a religion fashioned out of whole cloth. It’s based on a book written by a con-man who wrote-in oceans of anachronisms and errors because he didn’t know any better.

It’s just like scientology. A known kook writes a new “bible” and has the charisma to make folks fall for it.

These religions just prove that people want to be fooled.

 

[Lemuel]

Joseph Fielding Smith, when asked if the LDS Church had Smith’s seer stone said no, and further that the idea Smith ever used one was a devil’s lie.

I did not know this, but I’m not surprised. Lying for the Lord is a common practice in the Mormon church. JSF probably never saw the Internet coming, in spite of his being a prophet, seer and revelator.