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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
So which verse is correct? That one, or this one?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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mercygate
Guest
You may be a newcomer to dialogue with Catholics, but you’re going to strangle yourself if you make assertions like this. To use a typical Protestant technique, I ask: Where in Scripture does anything indicate that the Church is "made up of true believers in Christ?’That’s not correct. He is not the church. The church is made up of the true believers in Christ. He is the head of the church, but not “the church” We are HIS body, He is the head. He is the MIND of the church, the church obeys HIS word, NOT the churches word.
Who is “The rock” is it peter or Jesus? I say it’s Jesus, my hunch is that you think it’s peter. Jesus built His church upon HIMSELF not peter.
Your challenge regarding Peter is painfully naive. Please. Be kind to yourself. You know only what you know. But you don’t seem to know that there might actually BE something you don’t know. I’ve been in your position. My ranting against the Church out of ignorance made it all the harder to crawl in the door when I finally realized that her Truth was, um, true and that I had been a jerk for a really long time.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Then you were decieved.
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HailMary
Guest
BOTH!!!So which verse is correct? That one, or this one?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
H
HailMary
Guest
This question is very bad, since you are implicitly saying there are “errors” in Scripture.So which verse is correct? That one, or this one?
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Obviously, that verse about retaining sins is not for today.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
So, you believe that God’s word is errent?This question is very bad, since you are implicitly saying there are “errors” in Scripture.
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Tomster
Guest
I think you have a major problem with Incarnational theology.That’s not correct. He is not the church. The church is made up of the true believers in Christ. He is the head of the church, but not “the church” We are HIS body, He is the head. He is the MIND of the church, the church obeys HIS word, NOT the churches word.
Who is “The rock” is it peter or Jesus? I say it’s Jesus, my hunch is that you think it’s peter. Jesus built His church upon HIMSELF not peter.
Tomster
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Tomster
Guest
Where is that in the Bible?Obviously, that verse about retaining sins is not for today.
Tomster
P
Prayer_Warrior
Guest
I would have liked to voted in this poll but the option of “dying in a state of grace” was not there. How do we do that? Yes, trusting in Jesus is key, so is trusting the Church He founded to assist us. Getting to heaven is a process that starts with God’s free gift. The Bible and the Church tells us we are saved **by God’s Grace **through our faith. (note: this is not the same thing as “by faith alone” which is the creed of most protestants) No one can come to Jesus without first being drawn by the Father-- meaning we can’t even have faith without first receiving God’s Grace. Furthermore, we are told that faith without works is dead and we can be assured that dead faith isn’t going to get us to heaven. So, we must have a living faith working through love (love is greater than faith, as Scripture tells us). We must remember that there is sin that is mortal and sin which is not mortal. So, we must not die while we are in a state of mortal sin. How do we do that? We turn to God again and ask His forgiveness. This is easily done through the Church because the Church has the authority to bind and loose. If you do not go through the Church, you do not necessarily know if your sins are “bound or loosed”. Still, it is possible to confess, with perfect contrition, to God directly. Why you would want to, I don’t really understand, because Jesus so clearly laid out how He wanted sins to be confessed.
So you see there is more than trust involved, more than faith, but it all boils down to Grace. It starts with Grace, it ends with Grace. If we keep that in mind, we focus on God, rather than ourselves.
So you see there is more than trust involved, more than faith, but it all boils down to Grace. It starts with Grace, it ends with Grace. If we keep that in mind, we focus on God, rather than ourselves.
The answer is both. Jesus is known as the Rock, this is precisely why He renamed Peter with the name that means rock. Jesus is the CORNERSTONE, as scripture clearly says. Look up what a cornerstone is, it isn’t the same as “foundation”. Jesus is the Head of the Church- but He founded it upon Peter as scripture clearly says. By the way, Catholics do believe that we all make up the Body of Christ (the invisible Church, so to speak). However, a city set on a hill cannot be hid. There is also a visible Church. We are told, in Scripture, that if you have a dispute with your brother you try to work it out (that is working with the invisible Church). Then you take two or three brothers to work it out. If that doesn’t work, you take it to the Church. Now if you have already been told to take it to your “brother” then taking it to the Church is a separate thing. Invisible and Visible.Who is “The rock” is it peter or Jesus? I say it’s Jesus, my hunch is that you think it’s peter. Jesus built His church upon HIMSELF not peter.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
Sounds to me like you place your faith in your church. I place mine in God and His word. Yes there are errors in EVERY church, many, many errors in the catholic church. That’s why we need to compare the teachings with scripture. That’s why I am so concerned with the way that catholics believe they attain salvation.Although you are fervent, you are quite mistaken in your view that there is any conflict between the “word of God” and the teachings of the Church. You seem to approach Catholic teaching without a clear view of what Catholic teaching really *is. * Nothing in Catholic teaching contradicts Scripture. NOTHING.
You might find it easier on your head to frame your objections as questions rather than as definitive statements. It will save you a lot of embarrassment when you have to say: “I was wrong.”
M
mercygate
Guest
Let me say once again, that if this sums up your position, then you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA Catholic teaching on salvation or on the Church.Sounds to me like you place your faith in your church. I place mine in God and His word. Yes there are errors in EVERY church, many, many errors in the catholic church. That’s why we need to compare the teachings with scripture. That’s why I am so concerned with the way that catholics believe they attain salvation.
To persist in such statements borders on bearing false witness.
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HailMary
Guest
LOL. Since when are YOU allowed to make a verse “expired”?Obviously, that verse about retaining sins is not for today.
Oh man, are you pulling our leg or do you really believe that certain verses expire? When do they expire? When were they valid? Where in the bible did you derive that verse CAN expire? Is it a coincidence that the verses that don’t go with your version of Christianity are the ones that expired?
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HailMary
Guest
I’m sorry, are you reading what I am typing? How did you get to the conclusion that I am suggesting that there are errors in the Holy Scriptures? I’m saying you are the one implicitly suggesting that.So, you believe that God’s word is errent?
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Umm, they are both in Scripture so they are BOTH right. Scripture is not a cherry picking adventure.So which verse is correct? That one, or this one?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
P
Philthy
Guest
I think I was a little more careful with my words than you have been. The “bible” is the collection of OT and NT. The contents of the bible were infallibly revealed by God through the Catholic Church within the first few centuries of the Church.No it’s not. It is God’s history written through His prophets. The old testiment was written before the church and the rest of the bible was written before there were denominations, including catholic.
The fact of the matter is that there were many writings considered prophetic in the early church - God chose to reveal His true prophetic writings through the Catholic Church. If you think I’m mistaken, please reveal your personal source for the contents of the bible. Either you received direct revelation from God, or you simply are trusting a tradition to have provided it for you.
Your statement that there was a time when there were no denominations means, of course, that the church was universal - ie, catholic.
In addition, If you believe that an infallible OT canon of Scripture predates the Catholic Church then please show me the link to it so I may judge for myself.
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
And the commonplace cherrypicking of convenient passages of Scripture and interpreting ancient customs and beliefs in a modern context has many Catholics very concerned about the salvation of their non-Catholic brothers and sisters.Sounds to me like you place your faith in your church. I place mine in God and His word. Yes there are errors in EVERY church, many, many errors in the catholic church. That’s why we need to compare the teachings with scripture. That’s why I am so concerned with the way that catholics believe they attain salvation.
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
I would have liked to voted in this poll but the option of “dying in a state of grace” was not there. How do we do that? Yes, trusting in Jesus is key, so is trusting the Church He founded to assist us. Getting to heaven is a process that starts with God’s free gift. The Bible and the Church tells us we are saved **by God’s Grace **through our faith. (note: this is not the same thing as “by faith alone” which is the creed of most protestants)
It is the same as faith alone, since it also says "that NOT of ourselves" it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Therefore all that we can do is place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It’s not of works. Baptism is works. Good deeds is works. Communion is works. Don’t leave out the rest of the verse.
We are saved TO DO good works, NOT BECAUSE OF good works:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
No one can come to Jesus without first being drawn by the Father-- meaning we can’t even have faith without first receiving God’s Grace.
Who are you to say who has been drawn and who has not? When someone comes to Christ, obviously they have been drawn of the Father.
Furthermore, we are told that faith without works is dead
That simply means that true faith produces good works. Salvation is NOT by them though.
and we can be assured that dead faith isn’t going to get us to heaven. So, we must have a living faith working through love (love is greater than faith, as Scripture tells us).
We must remember that there is sin that is mortal and sin which is not mortal.
Give biblical references to the mortal sins and immortal sins please.
So, we must not die while we are in a state of mortal sin. How do we do that? We turn to God again and ask His forgiveness. This is easily done through the Church because the Church has the authority to bind and loose. If you do not go through the Church, you do not necessarily know if your sins are “bound or loosed”.
They are “cleansed” by the blood of the lamb, Jesus.
** 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ **his Son cleanseth us from all sin
Still, it is possible to confess, with perfect contrition, to God directly. Why you would want to, I don’t really understand, because Jesus so clearly laid out how He wanted sins to be confessed.
So you see there is more than trust involved, more than faith, but it all boils down to Grace. It starts with Grace, it ends with Grace. If we keep that in mind, we focus on God, rather than ourselves.
Grace ONLY comes through FAITH
ph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The answer is both. Jesus is known as the Rock, this is precisely why He renamed Peter with the name that means rock.
**He didn’t rename peter, His name always meant rock. His full name was Simon Peter.
Jesus is the CORNERSTONE, as scripture clearly says. Look up what a cornerstone is, it isn’t the same as “foundation”. Jesus is the Head of the Church- but He founded it upon Peter as scripture clearly says.
I don’t agree. He founded it upon Jesus Christ. He simply said “thou art peter” ( which means a rock) then He said and upon this rock (referring to Himself) I will build my church.**
By the way, Catholics do believe that we all make up the Body of Christ (the invisible Church, so to speak). However, a city set on a hill cannot be hid. There is also a visible Church. We are told, in Scripture, that if you have a dispute with your brother you try to work it out (that is working with the invisible Church). Then you take two or three brothers to work it out. If that doesn’t work, you take it to the Church. Now if you have already been told to take it to your “brother” then taking it to the Church is a separate thing. Invisible and Visible
**We believe that in my church as well. **
.
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Tomster
Guest
Frodo,Then you were decieved.
The Church was confirmed in its newness of life with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts:2:1-4); thereby Christ infused each of the organs of his Body with his own power, endowing the whole with inexhaustible vitality and fruitfulness. Just as the Father had sent the Spirit upon his Son to manifest his Messiahship at the beginning of his public ministry, so the Son in his turn sent the same Spirit upon his apostles to declare them before the world as his own, to strengthen them in their ministry, and to reveal that in the Church his mission from the Father was being fulfilled.
Tomster
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xfrodobagginsx
Guest
I see…catholics don’t do that though right?And the commonplace cherrypicking of convenient passages of Scripture and interpreting ancient customs and beliefs in a modern context has many Catholics very concerned about the salvation of their non-Catholic brothers and sisters.
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