How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Scott_Lafrance]

So let me get this straight. You believe ALL churches teach error which would include your own? Yet you wish me to believe your churches interpretation of scripture?

Well, there’s a point…

 

[Linkowski]

Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.and look how it ties in with Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. I’m sorry, but you place your faith in your church, because you adhere to the interpretations of certain passages of scripture that they have taught you. Just like your history so far…it is faulty.

When was the last time that your church excommunicated someone as is spelled out in the “procedure” in Matthew 18?

 

[Church_Militant]

That’s not true. They take one verse and twist it into a doctrine contrary to the rest of the bible.

Grossly untrue! As has been shown here throughout this thread, the Catholic Church easily has a preponderance of scripture upon which its teachings are based. You have in no way proved otherwise in your exchanges with me.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Exactly! Praise God! Catholics believe every word of what that verse says, yet n-Cs are the people who tell us that they can sit down with a Bible and privately interpret it accurately. In spite of the obvious contradiction of this particular verse.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Amen! We Catholics believe every word of what that verse is saying, yet in spite of all your preaching you have not proved you offer anything other than grossly inaccurate teachings of men and their new winds of doctrine.

 

[Church_Militant]

When was the last time that your church excommunicated someone as is spelled out in the “procedure” in Matthew 18?

Irrelevant to this discussion. Post it as a separate thread if you want to discuss it.

But don’t derail this one with that…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

It is the same as faith alone, since it also says “that NOT of ourselves” it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Therefore all that we can do is place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It’s not of works. Baptism is works. Good deeds is works. Communion is works. Don’t leave out the rest of the verse.

We are saved TO DO good works, NOT BECAUSE OF good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Saved by God’s Grace through faith does NOT mean saved by faith alone. If it did, it would say that. Do you realize that when you say “I’m saved by faith alone” that you have taken God out of the equation? Saved BY God’s Grace THROUGH faith. You are the one twisting scripture–which we are warned can lead to our destruction. Who said anything about works saving you? I said that the scripture and the Church both say we are saved by GOD’s GRACE.

Who are you to say who has been drawn and who has not? When someone comes to Christ, obviously they have been drawn of the Father.

What the heck? Did I say I am the judge of who has been drawn? I simply said that it begins with God’s grace–lest you boast that your faith alone saves you. Because your faith is a gift from God.

That simply means that true faith produces good works. Salvation is NOT by them though.

Nothing is “good” to God without being done in faith. No Catholic says that they can do “good” works without faith. No Catholic says works “save” them. Only that good works are necessary for living faith. It is like coin–you have a front and a back. Front side is faith, back side is works-- They are not separate.

Give biblical references to the mortal sins and immortal sins please.

1 John 5:16-17

They are “cleansed” by the blood of the lamb, Jesus.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

Praise God. He has blotted out our transgressions with His own blood… too bad we keep transgressing over and over again after we are reborn in spirit and water. That is precisely why we must keep turning to Him to ask for forgiveness. You said yourself it is necessary to confess your sins–we believe the same. I’m sorry to see that you feel that verse (about binding and loosing) is not applicable in this day and age. I would be curious to know what other scripture you feel no longer applies?

Grace ONLY comes through FAITH

ph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I’m not arguing with that scripture, but you have to pay attention to other scripture too. Yes, God’s grace flows through our faith. However, His initial Grace–the one where we are drawn to faith in Christ–how do we receive that? You can’t say through faith, because the gift IS faith, we didn’t have it yet. What I am saying is that God is the initiator.

He didn’t rename peter, His name always meant rock. His full name was Simon Peter.

This is incorrect. He was Simon. Jesus renamed him. See Mark 3:14-16: 14 He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons:
16 (he appointed the twelve Simon, whom he named Peter;

 

[blessedtoo]

Therefore all that we can do is place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It’s not of works. Baptism is works. Good deeds is works. Communion is works.

So is evangelization. Isn’t that what you are doing here right now?

I’ve never understood the preoccupation with “works”. After all, didn’t Our Lord work? Did he not heal the sick, feed the hungry, participate in religious ceremony? This is exactly what Catholics do as well.

 

[juliamajor]

Dear frodo- The bible says nowhere Not to baptize babies.Didache is pretty adamant about Baptism that is important enough to use almost any kind of water-including warm and if not much water is available for it to be(heaven forbid) poured over the head three times. the point is that they thought it was important to baptize no matter what.

 

[savedsinner]

That’s not correct. He is not the church. The church is made up of the true believers in Christ. He is the head of the church, but not “the church” We are HIS body, He is the head. He is the MIND of the church, the church obeys HIS word, NOT the churches word.

Frodo, that view of the church contradicts this passage:

Acts 9:1-5
Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

 

[Philthy]

Right here it says that HE WILL forgive us of our sins if we confess them to HIM. There is no priest involved here.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Uhhh, I still dont see where it indicates that the confession of those sins is only to God. It simply doesnt say it. You have read your theology into the verse without realizing it. All it says is that IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, then they are forgiven by God. It does not specify whether we confess to God or to a priest or to both or to one another. Other verses in the NT (and OT) which discuss confessing sins implies that those confessions are done between people (cf James 5:16; John 20:23, etc).
Your credibility in acknowledging (or refusing to acknowledge) your error on this point will be an indication of your sincerity in promoting a personal agenda or the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tomster]

Sounds to me like you place your faith in your church. I place mine in God and His word. Yes there are errors in EVERY church, many, many errors in the catholic church. That’s why we need to compare the teachings with scripture. That’s why I am so concerned with the way that catholics believe they attain salvation.

Frodo, Consider this. Any supernatural religion that renounces its claim to infallibility, it is clear, can profess to be a semi-revelation only. It is a hybrid thing, partly natural and partly supernatural, and it thus practically has all the qualities of a religion that is wholly natural. Insofar as it professes to be revealed, it of course professes to be infallible; but if the revealed part be in the first place hard to distinguish, and in the second place hard to understand; if it may mean many things, and many of these things contradictory, it might as well never have been made at all. To make it in any sense an infallible revelation, or in other words a revelation at all to us, we need a power to interpret the testament that will have equal authority with the testament itself.

God in his wisdom has given us that power in the magisterium of the Church, defined as the authority of the Church, by divine appointment, to teach the truths of the Holy Faith; the commission of the Church to teach; the teaching office of the Church.

Tomster

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Well I am so glad that my post was read and understood

Disagree with our interpretation all you want, but at least try to understand WHAT our position is in the first place.

And respectfully, your position on EVERY church having many, many errors contradicts scripture which tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

’
I didn’t say that every church has many, many errors, I said that the Catholic Church has many, many errors. I said that all churches have some degree of error, reason being that we (including the priests and pastors) are sinners and sin inhibits us from being completely led of the Holy Spirit, thus leaving us succeptable to error. My church is very accurate although I don’t agree with everything my pastor says. If I were placing my faith in my church above the word of God, I would believe everything he said, but in my own study (as God commands us to do) in searching the scriptures for myself, I realize that I don’t agree with some things my pastor says.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

That verse does not say “If we confess our sins to Him…”. In fact, the letter of James (5:16) recommends confession to one another:

…but we don’t confess them to each other to obtain forgiveness from God.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Just a short note:

What are you going to do with the poll? I guess it’s just for your information but how do you know that those who posted represent the Church’s teaching? In fact, since the poll doesn’t specify it, they might not even be Catholic.

I just asked simple question to a site containing almost 100% catholics and more people gave the correct answer than the wrong one. They believe that by trusting in what Jesus Christ did on the cross to pay for their sins, rather than a church, or a baptism or being good, gets them to heaven. That’s precisely what the bible says, so who hoooo! That’s wonderful!

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Grossly untrue! As has been shown here throughout this thread, the Catholic Church easily has a preponderance of scripture upon which its teachings are based. You have in no way proved otherwise in your exchanges with me.Exactly! Praise God! Catholics believe every word of what that verse says, yet n-Cs are the people who tell us that they can sit down with a Bible and privately interpret it accurately.

Again, as usual you don’t understand what that verse means. It means that you don’t take a verse out of the bible and build a doctrine out of it. You have to compare it with the other verses in the bible, because the bible is 100% God’s word without errors or contradictions.

In spite of the obvious contradiction of this particular verse.Amen! We Catholics believe every word of what that verse is saying, yet in spite of all your preaching you have not proved you offer anything other than grossly inaccurate teachings of men and their new winds of doctrine.

Not true, That’s true of Catholics.

 

[Harpazo]

’
I didn’t say that every church has many, many errors, I said that the Catholic Church has many, many errors. I said that all churches have some degree of error, reason being that we (including the priests and pastors) are sinners and sin inhibits us from being completely led of the Holy Spirit, thus leaving us succeptable to error. My church is very accurate although I don’t agree with everything my pastor says. If I were placing my faith in my church above the word of God, I would believe everything he said, but in my own study (as God commands us to do) in searching the scriptures for myself, I realize that I don’t agree with some things my pastor says.

Where in the Bible are you given such authority to do that interpreting on your own? Atheists interpret the Bible in ways to try and disprove various Christian doctrines. Muslims do the same to disprove the Trinity.

As for “Catholic Church in the Bible,” Church Militant hit this dead on. I’m a student of Modern Greek, and I can tell you that the phrase “Catholic Church” is in Scripture Acts 9:31. Even though I’m learning modern Greek, the vocabulary between modern and ancient Greek isn’t very different at all.

εκκλησιαι καθ’ όλις means Catholic Church (litterally the Church in agreement with the whole or Universal).

Is Baptist Church in the Bible? There’s an answer, I’d be eager to see.

Η ειρήνη του Χριστου να είναι με σου
Andrew

 

[Lorrie]

This thing is still going on?!?! :ehh:

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Saved by God’s Grace through faith does NOT mean saved by faith alone. If it did, it would say that.

**It DOES say that.

Eph 2:9** Not of works****, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified **by faith **without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Do you realize that when you say “I’m saved by faith alone” that you have taken God out of the equation? Saved BY God’s Grace THROUGH faith. You are the one twisting scripture–which we are warned can lead to our destruction. Who said anything about works saving you? I said that the scripture and the Church both say we are saved by GOD’s GRACE.

I agree that it is by grace through faith. When I say by faith alone, I mean that it’s without works such as being good, baptism, church membership, or communion.

What the heck? Did I say I am the judge of who has been drawn? I simply said that it begins with God’s grace–lest you boast that your faith alone saves you. Because your faith is a gift from God.

I agree that faith is a gift from God, but that verse is clearly saying that SALVATION is a gift from God that is NOT of works. So why do you try to work by being baptized and being good? Born again Christians do right because we already are saved, not in order to be saved.

Nothing is “good” to God without being done in faith. No Catholic says that they can do “good” works without faith. No Catholic says works “save” them. Only that good works are necessary for living faith. It is like coin–you have a front and a back. Front side is faith, back side is works-- They are not separate.

Does baptism save? That’s a good work. It’s commanded of Christ, but not for salvation. Does communion save? That’s a good work, commanded of Christ in rememberence of Him, but it does not save. Does church membership save? NO. The church is here to “edify” or “build up” the saints ( a saint is anyone who has trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior)

1 John 5:16-17

Praise God. He has blotted out our transgressions with His own blood… too bad we keep transgressing over and over again after we are reborn in spirit and water. That is precisely why we must keep turning to Him to ask for forgiveness. You said yourself it is necessary to confess your sins–we believe the same. I’m sorry to see that you feel that verse (about binding and loosing) is not applicable in this day and age. I would be curious to know what other scripture you feel no longer applies?

**Wrong. We are not born again and again and again. It’s a one time sacrifice for sin. We repent to Him as believers in order to stay in a right relationship (fellowship) with Him, but not for salvation. **

**Heb 10:14 For by **one offering ****he hath perfected **for ever **them that **are **sanctified.

Once we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we ARE sanctified. That means “set apart” We don’t lose our salvation. I am so glad I don’t live under the fear of hell as many under legalism do.

I’m not arguing with that scripture, but you have to pay attention to other scripture too. Yes, God’s grace flows through our faith. However, His initial Grace–the one where we are drawn to faith in Christ–how do we receive that? You can’t say through faith, because the gift IS faith, we didn’t have it yet. What I am saying is that God is the initiator.

**…Yes it’s through faith. The gift is only given through faith. God gives us the ability to have faith, that’s right, but He also gives us the free will to exercise it. ** God doesn’t force anyone to serve Him.

This is incorrect. He was Simon. Jesus renamed him. See Mark 3:14-16: 14 He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons:
16 (he appointed the twelve Simon, whom he named Peter;

Ok, I read it. I believe it because it’s in the bible. Why aren’t you willing to believe what I show you from the bible?

 

[Indyann]

This thing is still going on?!?! :ehh:

round and round and round and round

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Uhhh, I still dont see where it indicates that the confession of those sins is only to God. It simply doesnt say it. You have read your theology into the verse without realizing it. All it says is that IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, then they are forgiven by God. It does not specify whether we confess to God or to a priest or to both or to one another. Other verses in the NT (and OT) which discuss confessing sins implies that those confessions are done between people (cf James 5:16; John 20:23, etc).
Your credibility in acknowledging (or refusing to acknowledge) your error on this point will be an indication of your sincerity in promoting a personal agenda or the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The only one who can forgive sins is God. If we confess our sins to men, that’s ok, but we still need to confess them to God. He is the only one able to forgive them, because they are against Him. If you sin against your sister, you confess to her and to God ,but if you only confess to her and apologize to her, then you still need to go directly to God for His forgiveness.

Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mr 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mr 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Lu 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Frodo, Consider this. Any supernatural religion that renounces its claim to infallibility, it is clear, can profess to be a semi-revelation only. It is a hybrid thing, partly natural and partly supernatural, and it thus practically has all the qualities of a religion that is wholly natural. Insofar as it professes to be revealed, it of course professes to be infallible; but if the revealed part be in the first place hard to distinguish, and in the second place hard to understand; if it may mean many things, and many of these things contradictory, it might as well never have been made at all. To make it in any sense an infallible revelation, or in other words a revelation at all to us, we need a power to interpret the testament that will have equal authority with the testament itself.

God in his wisdom has given us that power in the magisterium of the Church, defined as the authority of the Church, by divine appointment, to teach the truths of the Holy Faith; the commission of the Church to teach; the teaching office of the Church.

Tomster

Any church arrogant enough to claim infallability is elevating it’s self above God and is blasphemy! There are other “churches” that claim to be infallable, how shall I know which one is lying and which one is telling the truth?

I will answer this for you, by reading the bible for myself and letting the Holy Ghost interpret it for me as He does. BTW any church claiming infallability is a false church.