How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[MariaG]

’
I didn’t say that every church has many, many errors, I said that the Catholic Church has many, many errors. I said that all churches have some degree of error, reason being that we (including the priests and pastors) are sinners and sin inhibits us from being completely led of the Holy Spirit, thus leaving us succeptable to error. My church is very accurate although I don’t agree with everything my pastor says. If I were placing my faith in my church above the word of God, I would believe everything he said, but in my own study (as God commands us to do) in searching the scriptures for myself, I realize that I don’t agree with some things my pastor says.

But you still don’t acknowledge that according to our interpretation of scripture, Christ is the Church. Therefore when a Catholic says they trust in the Church, they trust in Christ.

I understand that this would be a false statement for you. That anyone who did not have the belief that Christ is the Church would be in trouble, but you still do not seem to understand that this is our belief, even though you may disagree with it.

And so the CATHOLIC church has many, many errors, but this OPINION I am supposed to trust from someone who says their church is accurate in MOST things?

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I believe everything that is in the Bible–I just don’t agree with your particular interpretation of what is there.

By the way, I never said we were born again and again and again… I said we transgress again and again (after we have been reborn in spirit and water) and that we keep having to turn to God to ask forgiveness. This involves confessing the sin. You feel that you can do that directly to God, I feel we can do it through the Church that was authorized to bind and loose. It is not like I am coming out of left field here.

Well, the Bible does say that baptism now saves you… but it is not the water doing the saving.

What it is saying is that it’s not WATER BAPTISM that saves you. It is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It specifically says “NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh” Water baptism puts away the filth of the flesh. It’s talking about a baptism that puts away the filth of the spirit.

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

It is the Grace of God doing all the work. You seem to have a hang up on Catholics thinking we should do works to earn our way to heaven. This is completely wrong. Sorry, but you seem to have been misinformed about what Catholics believe about works. Works are no good without faith BUT faith is no good without works.

Wrong. The works are the result of faith.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The “once saved always saved” theology is very dangerous. For heaven’s sake, if Paul was working out his salvation in fear and trembling, don’t you think we need to “work it out” as well? Why would we even need to worry about putting on our armor if we have nothing to worry about once we’ve accepted the Lord.

Because the devil attacks the saved, he already has the unsaved where he wants them.

Why would we rejoice in the hope of salvation (Rom 5:2) rather than rejoice in the assured salvation?

**How could we KNOW that we have eternal life if we could lose it?

** 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know**** that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, **ye were sealed **with that holy Spirit of promise,

How could we be sealed by the Holy Ghost and until the day of redemption and lose it? We can’t.

According to scripture we have hopeful confidence-- not a presumed certainty.

**It’s not presumed when it’s assured by God:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.**

2 Tim 2:12 says “**if we persevere **we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.” IF we persevere?? That certainly does not sound like “once saved always saved”.

 

[Lorrie]

**What it is saying is that it’s not WATER BAPTISM that saves you. It is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It specifically says “NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh” Water baptism puts away the filth of the flesh. **

I thought soap was needed to do that? Frodo, darling, please tell me you use soap when you bathe.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

But you still don’t acknowledge that according to our interpretation of scripture, Christ is the Church. Therefore when a Catholic says they trust in the Church, they trust in Christ.

**Christ isn’t the church. That is wrong. Christians are the church and Christ Jesus is the head of the church, but He is not the church. **

Look at it this way, if your church said to do something that the bible told you not to do, which to you obey? The bible or the church?

I say the bible and the bible says the bible.

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

I understand that this would be a false statement for you. That anyone who did not have the belief that Christ is the Church would be in trouble, but you still do not seem to understand that this is our belief, even though you may disagree with it.

**That’s not biblical. ** I don’t care what your church says, show me the bible verse.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Harpazo]

If anyone can pick up the Bible and make interpretations for themselves, than there’s nothing wrong with the way the Church interprets Scripture. It’s OUR interpretation, so in your theology, it has to be right, because every personal interpretation is.

I don’t see the problem anymore.

 

[jnavarre]

There is some good information on this subject at
www.oneflockoneshepherd.com

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by xfrodobagginsx

**Christ isn’t the church. That is wrong. Christians are the church and Christ Jesus is the head of the church, but He is not the church. **

Respectfully, I disagree. I look at scripture and see that Christ said from heaven, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who was Saul persecuting? The Church.

There were other scripture verses posted too. And respectfully, I am not even looking to convince you that the Catholic Church is correct in her interpretation. What I am trying to show you is that there is scripture, you just disagree as to the interpretation.

That is okay

But what I am trying to get you to see is that IF we were right about our interpretation, it would be correct to say that we trust in the Church because according to our interpretation, Christ is the Church.

Admitting that you understand what we teach is not admitting you think we are right.

originally posted by xfrodobagginsx

Look at it this way, if your church said to do something that the bible told you not to do, which to you obey? The bible or the church?

My Church would never do that. But even IF it did, that is already covered by my church. I have to follow as my conscience dictates, but I have a responsibilty to have a well formed conscience. So playing you little scenario, I would follow scripture.

A little fact you would probably wouldn’t know is that I am a technical revert but more of a convert to Catholicism. I was in a Fundamental Christian Church, (Yes, I was a fundie too , and still really consider myself such).

I came into the Catholic church through the Holy Spirit and scripture alone. Ironic but true. If there is ever a doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts scripture, I would leave it immediately. My saving grace sermon in which God grabbed ahold of my heart was deeply interwoven with scripture. My faith was first in Christ hand in hand with His Holy Word (Cover to cover including the cover were the pastor’s words ). I always started my prayers and bible study with asking God to lead me to all truth.

originally posted by xfrodobagginsx

I say the bible and the bible says the bible.

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

Contrary to popular belief, my church does not infact follow “traditions of men”. If you wished to discuss some that you feel are “traditions of men” I would be glad to do so in a new thread:yup:

That’s not biblical. I don’t care what your church says, show me the bible verse.

Church Militant did. I can do so again if you wish me to:shrug:

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Michael_Francis]

Posts have been removed due to a board swarm call.

In an effort to illuminate and explain the Catholic faith, CA makes every effort to provide our participants with a pleasant and informative place on the internet where Catholics and non-Catholics may gather.

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Your cooperation in helping promote these aims of faith exposition, hope for fruitful discussion and charity in implementation are sincerely appreciated.

Also, please remain on topic or this thread will be closed.
MF

 

[heisenburg]

I say the bible and the bible says the bible.

Actually, no it doesn’t…

It says that the Church is the bastion and bulwark of truth, not the bible. The bible is PART of that truth, but it is not all of that truth.

Furthermore, keep in mind that when Mark was written, very few of the NT letters were written. If you want to say that a verse in Mark proves that the bible is the sole authority, (which is never mentioned by the way) then it can only be referring to the OT.

When there is a disagreement with your brother, who do you go to.
First your brother, then a larger group, then, to the bible or the Church?

The Church

If the Church is nothing more than the group of people that believe in christ, and it is NOT a physical place as well, then where am I to go when I have a disagreement? If it is not a physical church, then this statement makes no sense. Go to the church if there is a disagreement, oh, by the way there is no physical church.

Maybe God just has a sense of humor

If I am looking for truth, and what is true about something in the bible, again, why does the BIBLE say that it is the CHURCH that holds that truth. If it is not a physical place, how can i get that truth. It obviously isn’t talking about the particular protestant church you go to, because despite what protestants like to believe, there is NO union agreement with each other. This means I can’t go there either.

So, If there is no physical part of the Church Christ founded, and I cant go to a local church, then right there you have two cases where the bible is wrong if the bible is the sole rule of faith.

or is it far more simply that the bible ISN’T the sole rule of faith

So, does the bible says beleive the bible over the Church is actually an anti-biblical statement

In Christ

 

[Church_Militant]

Originally Posted by Church Militant

Grossly untrue! As has been shown here throughout this thread, the Catholic Church easily has a preponderance of scripture upon which its teachings are based. You have in no way proved otherwise in your exchanges with me.Exactly! Praise God! Catholics believe every word of what that verse says, yet n-Cs are the people who tell us that they can sit down with a Bible and privately interpret it accurately.

Again, as usual you don’t understand what that verse means. **It means that you don’t take a verse out of the bible and build a doctrine out of it. You have to compare it with the other verses in the bible, because **the bible is 100% ****

God’s word without errors or contradictions.Here you’re talking through your hat because you attempt to assert something that Catholics supposedly don’t believe when in fact, we do.

The teachings of the Catholic Church conform to exactly what you have laid out here. They are based upon the total context of scripture on any given topic, and you have failed to prove otherwise. One place that you have erred most gravely is to infer that 2,000 years of Christian history and the verifiable writings of the early church cannot be used to insure that we properly understand the Word of God just as that early church did.

As I have pointed out many times. If one sits down and makes a careful reading of the earliest ECF writings and compares them side by side with the modern post reformation n-C doctrines and those of the Catholic Church, the end result will be that the n-Cs doctrines are rejected and the Catholic teachings are affirmed.

With regard to your comments about using a single verse to proof text a doctrine versus the entire scriptural context, I submit (because I have personally found it to be so!) that it is not the Catholic Church that commits the error you have asserted, but the modern post reformation n-Cs.

Originally Posted by Church Militant

In spite of the obvious contradiction of this particular verse.Amen! We Catholics believe every word of what that verse is saying, yet in spite of all your preaching you have not proved you offer anything other than grossly inaccurate teachings of men and their new winds of doctrine.

Not true, That’s true of Catholics.

So says you… yet you have not supported that assertion with anything other than rhetorical statements and allegations from sources that even other Baptists will not accept or use because they are grossly fictitious and biased.

With regard to your repeated references to the Trail of Blood propaganda booklet, we have shown you that it is a biased and grossly inaccurate source and with regard to Foxe’s Book Of Martyrs I have already shown you remarks from its introduction that point out its inaccuracies about the early church connections.
Furthermore, it demonizes Catholicism for violence as if the Protestants of the day were blameless and without sin, when in fact, there is a great deal of historical evidence that Protestants committed similar crimes against Catholics there in England, in Ireland, in Europe, and even here in the United States.

The Know Nothings
The Ku Klux Klan

It is specious to allege that Catholics were the only sinners in that scenario, and though no one today can condone the violence on both sides, every human being can comprehend it simply by considering their own flawed human nature.

 

[Church_Militant]

Any church arrogant enough to claim infallability is elevating it’s self above God and is blasphemy!

There are other “churches” that claim to be infallable, how shall I know which one is lying and which one is telling the truth?
**
I will answer this for you, by reading the bible for myself and letting the Holy Ghost interpret it for me as He does.** **BTW any church claiming infallability is a false church.**A rant without any support from the Word of God.

And yet Christ Himself promised that assurance of infallibility to His church when He said. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.Matthew 16.

So then you claim this infallibility for yourself? That is precisely what this statement does, while denying what Our Lord promised to His church and actually attempting to usurp that authority and promise of assurance for yourself. I wouldn’t do that. So then you are telling us that you are never wrong? Yet I have already proved you wrong several times in this thread alone.

By this statement you have logically condemned yourself. :doh2:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I love this verse! I don’t suppose that you’ve noticed here that St. Paul does not say to St. Timothy. “Study the Bible”, or “Study the scriptures”, and so based on what this verse says (and the context nowhere changes this…) then sacred Tradition is included in what Paul is telling Timothy to study. In this he would be following the apostles.

Example: (I asked you to look all this up and apparently you dismissed my request, so now I’m going to show you why that was so important.) Post is here…
Jude Chapter 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”…Jude Chapter 1:14: It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15: to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

2nd Timothy Chapter 3:8: As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

The first 1st is quoting The Assumption of Moses. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 2nd is quoting The Book of Enoch. Not the Old Testament, yet the apostle Jude quotes it as a fact of belief.

The 3rd is quoting the Book of Jannes and Jambres and not the Old Testament. (Go ahead and look…their names are nowhere found in the OT!), yet here again…St. Paul refers to something as fact that is not stated in the inspired canon. So then… he is clearly telling Timothy to study both scripture and traditional sources, since that is clearly shown here as apostolic practice.:newidea:

So much for the idea that the apostles taught Sola Scriptura.

You see it all the time. People don’t agree on everything, even within any church, including your catholic church. At the same time, if you go to the same source of truth (the bible) and study it though the Holy Spirit, you can understand no matter who you are.

If this were actually true then all faithful believers would hold the exact same doctrines and beliefs…but that is not so among n-Cs, though with in the Catholic Church one single authority is acknowledged and there is indeed one authoritative and knowledgeable source of doctrinal interpretation.

Your comments that some Catholics might dissent or disagree does not indict that infallible authority in faith and morals but instead indicts the consciences of those who dissent or oppose those teachings.

 

[japhy]

XfrodobagginsX, you’ve made a couple statements I think need clarifying.

First, you have quoted Paul’s letter to the Ephesians 2:8-9 often:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is juxtaposing grace and works here, not faith and works. Grace is the gift of God, not a reward for works. Paul makes that clear (cf. Romans 3:24; 11:6). We can not win God’s favor through our works, but only through His grace. I think everyone here is in agreement on that.

Then, in response to LilyM’s remark “And if baptism is unnecesary then why did He get baptised Himself, and why on EARTH did He command His disciples, as the very last thing He said to them on earth, to baptise all nations?” you said this (#542): “As an act of obedience. You can be a Christian and be disobedient. It is an ordinaince.”

I must ask you, then, which ordinances of the Lord you can disobey and yet hope to be saved. Or, can you ask forgiveness for not following them and then continue to not follow them and be saved? How disobedient a Christian can you be and yet be saved? Can you ask the Lord to forgive you for not getting baptized (which is an ordinance of Jesus as you admit) and then… not get baptized?

What does one obey? An authority (whether it be a government or a person). What of an authority do you obey? Their will, their commands, their ordinances, their laws. An ordinance is a law! Baptism is a law of Christ! Jesus Christ is our Savior insofar as he is our Lord as well! He is merciful as much as he is just!

Please read the following Scriptures and tell me how you interpret them: what they mean in relation to your hope for eternal salvation:

Matthew 10:37-38 – where Jesus mentions things that make us unworthy of him
Matthew 25:14-30 – which records the parable of the talents and the worthless steward
Rom 6:1 – where Paul asks “Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?”
1 Cor 4:1-2 – where Paul identifies himself a steward, and says that stewards must be found trustworthy
1 Cor 9:27 – where Paul admits to his need to subdue his flesh lest he be disqualified.
1 Cor 10:8-10 – where Paul tells Corinth not to “indulge in immorality” nor “put the Lord to the test”
1 Cor 11:27 – where Paul warns Corinth about unworthily consuming the Lord’s Supper
2 Cor 13:5-11 – where Paul tells Corinth “Jesus Christ is in you – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”
Eph 4:1-3 – where Paul begs them to “lead a life worthy of the calling”
Phil 1:27 – where Paul reminds them to “let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ”
Col 1:9-10 – where Paul prays that they may “lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him”
1 Thess 2:10-12 – where Paul exhorts them “to lead a life worthy of God”
2 Thess 1:11-12 – where Paul prays “that our God may make you worthy of his call”

 

[deanarrca]

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Absolutely you need to study scripture, but you need to also study the proper interpretation-

2 Timothy 3:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (referring to the Apostles teaching)

Secondly studying the bible on one’s own is a very modern thing and has only been a very recent possibility in history.

For the First 400 years or so Christians did not have the bible as it is today. It was not in its current form.
Then even when it became canonized, there were few copies in few languages and those were in the hands of the Church. Also only the educated could read.

Then in the 1500’s with the printing press many copies could be made, but still there were few translations in a relatively few languages. Remember there are over 300 different languages in Europe alone. Still relatively few people could afford a Bible let alone were literate enough to read one.

The proliferation of Bibles in many languages available to many is a very very recent thing in history. Still many are illiterate.

Acts 8:30-31 (New American Standard Bible)
30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Ideally you believe that every believer can understand the clear and simple truths on his own as guided by the Holy Spirit.
In theory that is wonderful but it has not worked out well in practice.

I have been a member of 3 different Bible Believing Churches and attended many others and none of them agreed completely with the others.They all taught differently and many times contradicted one another. I have been in Churches where the guest pastor/speaker has contradicted the senior Pastor. So which Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit??? When you personally don’t agree with someone on a point of Scripture who has the Holy Spirit? How can all interpretations be equally correct?? The bible says when there is a dispute take it to the Church for the final say but which Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit?

I guess my point is the Church is quite necessary alongside the Bible for the spreading of the Gospel for teaching and instruction of the truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Then the next question which Church. Well the Catholic (Universal) Church founded by Christ on Peter the Rock, Matthew 16:18 (New American Standard Bible)
18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. The Church that has Apostolic succession (2 Tim 3:14)

 

[Harpazo]

I’ve yet to receive an answer Frodo, as to the Greek in the New Testament labeling Christ’s Church as the Catholic Church. I’m interested in your reply.

Peace and God bless
Andrew

 

[jabelltulsa]

You see it all the time. People don’t agree on everything, even within any church, including your catholic church. At the same time, if you go to the same source of truth (the bible) and study it though the Holy Spirit, you can understand no matter who you are.

J-Bells Fiancee

I understand your Logic, however Salvation is very important, On that i think we would AGREE, so, if the bible through the Holy Ghost is the key to knowing Christ. Why did Christ specifically Say The Gates of Hell will not prevail agianst my church. He doesn’t say follower,or Scripture or Denomination, he says “My Church” Which to me very clearly means there is one Church and that is God’s Church and The gates of hell will not prevail agianst it. and to me this is the Key to the Kingdom this is the key to finding Salvation. This is the place Christ want for us to abide.

 

[Tomster]

I’ve yet to receive an answer Frodo, as to the Greek in the New Testament labeling Christ’s Church as the Catholic Church. I’m interested in your reply.

Peace and God bless
Andrew

I haven’t either. Perhaps he either took the day off or he is sorting through everything or he threw up the white flag.

Tomster

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

That says nothing about interpreting Scriptures for yourself. You did not answer my question at all, but rather quoted a verse in which was twisted. Are the millions of millions of Protestants who have an interpretation different from yours saved? How can they be? One might say abortion is ok, and another say it isn’t. Joe Protestant might think women should be preachers while Jane Protestant thinks they don’t need to be. One thinks the rapture will happen before Christ’s return, others believe that it will happen after the tribulation. They all use the same Bible! I could make more examples, if necessary.

I don’t think you understand how dangerous this self-interpretation is. It only divides, and has NEVER unified as Christ intended.

Pax Christi
Andrew

Wow, how do you study without interpreting? I would love to know that. Besides it also says to study to make sure that you are being taught the truth.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

You are so used to letting some priest think for you that you cannot understand this freedom.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Actually, no it doesn’t…

It says that the Church is the bastion and bulwark of truth, not the bible. The bible is PART of that truth, but it is not all of that truth.

**I can’t believe that you would place your “church” above the very word of God. How illogical and blind of you. **

Furthermore, keep in mind that when Mark was written, very few of the NT letters were written. If you want to say that a verse in Mark proves that the bible is the sole authority, (which is never mentioned by the way) then it can only be referring to the OT.

When there is a disagreement with your brother, who do you go to.
First your brother, then a larger group, then, to the bible or the Church?

It depends upon the disagreement, weather it’s a biblical issue or not.

The Church

If the Church is nothing more than the group of people that believe in christ, and it is NOT a physical place as well, then where am I to go when I have a disagreement? If it is not a physical church, then this statement makes no sense. Go to the church if there is a disagreement, oh, by the way there is no physical church.

The church is the “body” of Christ. Christ is the head. Since Jesus Christ is the word of God and the head of the church, which part of the body makes the decisions, the body or the head? We are to have the “mind of Christ” We do this by applying SCRIPTURE.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;/B]

Maybe God just has a sense of humor

If I am looking for truth, and what is true about something in the bible, again, why does the BIBLE say that it is the CHURCH that holds that truth.
**
It says that Jesus Christ and His WORD is the truth, not the church, in fact we are saved by the word of God**

** Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

His word is the truth, not the church:

** Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth**, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

** 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth**.

** 1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.**

If it is not a physical place, how can i get that truth. It obviously isn’t talking about the particular protestant church you go to, because despite what protestants like to believe, there is NO union agreement with each other. This means I can’t go there either.

The church is the bride of Christ and the body of Christ.

So, If there is no physical part of the Church Christ founded, and I cant go to a local church, then right there you have two cases where the bible is wrong if the bible is the sole rule of faith.

Who said that?

or is it far more simply that the bible ISN’T the sole rule of faith

Let’s put it this way, if anything a church says contradicts the bible, it is a false teaching. The catholics have plenty of them.

So, does the bible says beleive the bible over the Church is actually an anti-biblical statement

What a lie. The church is expected to live by the word of God, not by it’s own word.

In Christ

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

If anyone can pick up the Bible and make interpretations for themselves, than there’s nothing wrong with the way the Church interprets Scripture. It’s OUR interpretation, so in your theology, it has to be right, because every personal interpretation is.

I don’t see the problem anymore.

No, because no one person, or church is perfect incuding the catholic church. We need the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. No one church perfectly interprets scripture and this is seen in the many denominations, including the fact that there are different types of catholics so don’t be hippocritical and say that the protestants don’t agree on everything, well neither do all catholics. We need to prayerfully seek the Lord when interpreting scripture and He will show us the meanings in His time, not ours. Many times it will be instantaneous, many times it will take longer, some times it takes years to understand certain things in the bible. The easiest to understand is the salvation message in the bible, yet that is the point of the most division, because the devil is a deciever. he tries to add things to the gospel, such as baptism saves, ect. to trick people from comming to the truth. he also likes to take away from the gospel by tricking folks into thinking that whatever they want to believe is ok. he also attacks the word of God, by attacking it’s truthfulness, accuracy, and even it’s authority…e.g. people who think that the church’es word trumps the word of God Himself. What a lie.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Absolutely you need to study scripture, but you need to also study the proper interpretation-

2 Timothy 3:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (referring to the Apostles teaching)

Secondly studying the bible on one’s own is a very modern thing and has only been a very recent possibility in history.

For the First 400 years or so Christians did not have the bible as it is today. It was not in its current form.
Then even when it became canonized, there were few copies in few languages and those were in the hands of the Church. Also only the educated could read.

Then in the 1500’s with the printing press many copies could be made, but still there were few translations in a relatively few languages. Remember there are over 300 different languages in Europe alone. Still relatively few people could afford a Bible let alone were literate enough to read one.

The proliferation of Bibles in many languages available to many is a very very recent thing in history. Still many are illiterate.

Acts 8:30-31 (New American Standard Bible)
30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Ideally you believe that every believer can understand the clear and simple truths on his own as guided by the Holy Spirit.
In theory that is wonderful but it has not worked out well in practice.

I have been a member of 3 different Bible Believing Churches and attended many others and none of them agreed completely with the others.They all taught differently and many times contradicted one another. I have been in Churches where the guest pastor/speaker has contradicted the senior Pastor. So which Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit??? When you personally don’t agree with someone on a point of Scripture who has the Holy Spirit? How can all interpretations be equally correct?? The bible says when there is a dispute take it to the Church for the final say but which Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit?

I guess my point is the Church is quite necessary alongside the Bible for the spreading of the Gospel for teaching and instruction of the truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Then the next question which Church. Well the Catholic (Universal) Church founded by Christ on Peter the Rock, Matthew 16:18 (New American Standard Bible)
18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. The Church that has Apostolic succession (2 Tim 3:14)

The reason that noone had the bible was that the Catholic church destroyed them and wouldn’t allow anyone to see the bible, let alone study it. It was a way of controlling the people. Martin luthor was a catholic monk who realized (because he had access to the scripture) that what they were teaching didn’t line up with the word of God and that’s where the protestant reformation came from.