How to respond to a "lesbian friend"

[PaulinVA]

Whatever happened to “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”???

Pharisees!!!

Hmmm. You need to reread that parable.

While Christ did prevent the Jews from stoning the woman caught in adultery, there was no question that she was, indeed, caught doing a sinful act.

He told her she was forgiven and to go and sin no more. Jesus never told a sinner to continue on sinning, and he never withheld judgment, did he?

Read the epistles. There are many, many examples of Christians admonishing other Christians to stop one sin or another.

The call of “Pharisees!!!” is usually meant to halt discussion. It’s sort of the adult Christian version of “Oh, yeah, you’re a poopy-head, too” . I disregard it.

 

[baylee]

The call of “Pharisees!!!” is usually meant to halt discussion. It’s sort of the adult Christian version of “Oh, yeah, you’re a poopy-head, too” . I disregard it.

As did the Pharisees.

 

[OraLabora]

Hmmm. You need to reread that parable.

While Christ did prevent the Jews from stoning the woman caught in adultery, there was no question that she was, indeed, caught doing a sinful act.

He told her she was forgiven and to go and sin no more. Jesus never told a sinner to continue on sinning, and he never withheld judgment, did he?

Read the epistles. There are many, many examples of Christians admonishing other Christians to stop one sin or another.

The call of “Pharisees!!!” is usually meant to halt discussion. It’s sort of the adult Christian version of “Oh, yeah, you’re a poopy-head, too” . I disregard it.

I have read the entire parable. I figured some smart-aleck would come back with this response.

It was Jesus who said go and sin no more. Not a friend one hasn’t seen in years. The friend is in someone in the crowd, not someone with any kind of teaching authority, not an elder of the community who could remotely claim to stand in for Jesus.

Jesus today, teaches through His Church’s duly instituted ministers through apostolic succession.

I get really angry at people pointing fingers at others’ sexual sins without knowing the full picture or without taking stock of their own sins.

No one knows what her gay friend struggles with. By sticking her nose clumsily into the other person’s affairs she risks doing more harm than good and even further driving her friend away from God.

PM me about parental abuse and “normal” sexuality if you wish. I speak from personal experience on this.

 

[PaulinVA]

I have read the entire parable. I figured some smart-aleck would come back with this response.

I have to plead guilty to being a smart aleck. But, that doesn’t negative the validity of my post, does it?

It was Jesus who said go and sin no more. Not a friend one hasn’t seen in years. The friend is in someone in the crowd, not someone with any kind of teaching authority, not an elder of the community who could remotely claim to stand in for Jesus.

Jesus today, teaches through His Church’s duly instituted ministers through apostolic succession.

Okay, when presented with sin, what should a Christian do? You are told at work that everyone inflates their expense account. What do you do? Someone tells you they are trying to break up a coworkers marriage. What do you do?

Do you sit idly by?

I get really angry at people pointing fingers at others’ sexual sins without knowing the full picture or without taking stock of their own sins.

No one knows what her gay friend struggles with. By sticking her nose clumsily into the other person’s affairs she risks doing more harm than good and even further driving her friend away from God.

What makes you think that the OP isn’t aware of his/her own sins?

When confronted with the situation of someone who, according to the Church, has put their sould at risk, how can you stand by and do nothing? Yes, you need to be very careful. You need to mirror Christ’s love. But Christ never said, 'Yeah, Whatever" when confronted with sin.

To confine reproach or direction to priests is a little restricting, isn’t it? Are you arguing that the OP should have a priest contact his/her friend?

 

[OraLabora]

Okay, when presented with sin, what should a Christian do? You are told at work that everyone inflates their expense account. What do you do?

Be scrupulously honest about my own, and wait for Accounting to investigate why one employee’s expense account is consistently lower than the rest.

Someone tells you they are trying to break up a coworkers marriage. What do you do?

Do you sit idly by?

To be honest I’ve seen a lot in office politics, but nobody was overt enough about trying to break up another marriage so as to tell me. Mostly likely it will be through subtle cues that I am too thick to pick up. But I have seen it happen. I just have never seen anyone overtly admit it was what they were trying to do, it was usually something like “guess what, Joe left Sally and is shacking up with John’s ex-wife”. So it seems like rather a theoretical question. But when I do see people in the workplace whose ethics I question, I tend to just avoid them.

I have been asked to commit fraud in my work, or do unsafe things, and have refused. It didn’t earn me any browny points and eventually I left the company when I found a better situation. It’s almost impossible for a low-ranking employee or middle-manager to change a corporate culture. If a crime is committed, it should be reported though.

When confronted with the situation of someone who, according to the Church, has put their sould at risk, how can you stand by and do nothing? Yes, you need to be very careful. You need to mirror Christ’s love. But Christ never said, 'Yeah, Whatever" when confronted with sin.

Oh come on, you think a lesbian won’t know perfectly well what the Church thinks of her sex life? And is unable to reason on her own? Do you think telling her that she’s wrong will contribute one iota towards her salvation?

What may work, however, is to lead as exemplary a life as you can as a lay Catholic, without tooting your horn about it, while remaining her friend and hoping some of it rubs off. Lecturing her about something she already knows will surely turn her off her friend and therefore her friend will lose all ability to subtly evangelize her.

 

[Lauds]

Ora labora always has the most common sense answers to most of the questions asked on this forum

 

[PaulinVA]

Oh come on, you think a lesbian won’t know perfectly well what the Church thinks of her sex life? And is unable to reason on her own? Do you think telling her that she’s wrong will contribute one iota towards her salvation?

What may work, however, is to lead as exemplary a life as you can as a lay Catholic, without tooting your horn about it, while remaining her friend and hoping some of it rubs off. Lecturing her about something she already knows will surely turn her off her friend and therefore her friend will lose all ability to subtly evangelize her.

And therein lies the problem.

I don’t really know how I would answer the question of a morality issue versus a legal issue.

No one is going to say, “Oh, Paul thinks I’ve made a wrong moral choice” and amend their lives. I know.

There are many questions of this sort on CAF. I think people are looking for something more than just being a good example.

 

[OraLabora]

There are many questions of this sort on CAF. I think people are looking for something more than just being a good example.

Well, I am a Benedictine Oblate, and that’s what my Spiritual Director teaches me to do.

We are a fallen sick world, everyone’s soul is at risk from something or another we have done or failed to do. The place to start is with our own conversatio morum. And the way to help others is to gently lead them towards making the same realization about their own souls.

I didn’t become an oblate on my own, a friend led me to it (although I was a practicing Catholic at the time). But not by criticizing my sins of commission or omission (and trust me there are plenty), but because I questioned him about his spiritual values and something he said spoke to me and he set me up to meet the Oblate Director of our abbey. I was particularly impressed with how this guy, a dentist with an MD and specialization in facial surgery with a Masters in Theology, and wealthy, managed to lead such a life of simplicity and managed to be so humble about his terrific intellect.

Truth be known we need to radiate an inner peace and kindness in the face of adversity that gets people asking the question “how the heck can he be so serene when the boss is going nuts and stressing everyone out?” or something along those lines.

Also getting back to the case of the friend of the lesbian… we are actually the ones that are being counter-cultural, not the lesbian who is riding the tide. IMHO that gives us an even greater responsibility to tread gently if we are going to stem the tide and attract people to the Truth.

The Truth needs to be a shining beacon in the storm, something people are naturally attracted to, not turned off by. We as the people of Christ need to be that shining beacon and the only way to do that is via our own lives.

 

[PaulinVA]

The Truth needs to be a shining beacon in the storm, something people are naturally attracted to, not turned off by. We as the people of Christ need to be that shining beacon and the only way to do that is via our own lives.

But, isn’t silence construed as acceptance? Does it matter?

In this situation, would you say nothing? How would you respond?

 

[Betterave]

I have read the entire parable. I figured some smart-aleck would come back with this response.

It was Jesus ****** who said go and sin no more. Not a friend one hasn’t seen in years. [Not a friend of any kind.] The friend is in someone in the crowd, not someone with any kind of teaching authority, not an elder of the community who could remotely claim to stand in for Jesus. [The crowd was there to see how Jesus would react, not to consult him as a loving friend or as a duly instituted teaching authority. And the crowd was gone by the time Jesus spoke to the woman.]

Jesus today, teaches through His Church’s duly instituted ministers through apostolic succession.

Where do you get this? If one is not a “duly instituted minister,” one ought not to try to share the gospel with a friend? That is so obviously wrong. If your spiritual director is telling you stuff like this, maybe you need a new one?

I get really angry at people pointing fingers at others’ sexual sins without knowing the full picture or without taking stock of their own sins.

 

[Betterave]

Oh come on, you think a lesbian won’t know perfectly well what the Church thinks of her sex life? And is unable to reason on her own? Do you think telling her that she’s wrong will contribute one iota towards her salvation?

You can seriously pose this question? Most practising Catholics are very shaky on “what the Church thinks” about sex. The chances are extremely good that a lesbian who is not interested in organized religion will not know the Church’s teaching about sex (in any meaningful sense of the word ‘know’).

 

[kage_ar]

But, isn’t silence construed as acceptance? Does it matter?

In this situation, would you say nothing? How would you respond?

Here is how I would respond.

“Honey, you are one of my best friends. I love you and only want the best for you. I am a practicing Catholic, and I could not in good conscience attend a same sex wedding. Know that I will be praying for you, and will look forward to buying you lunch next Tuesday.”

 

[KKendra]

Ok Ladies and Gents,
I wasn’t going to post her email word by word, but roughly her reaction to the issue, as I thought you were all interested in knowing how she reacted (specially since you’ve been so engaged in answering my post). But no one is giving up her name, email address, and entire communication, it’s just the issue in question. As for being a Pharisee, I am not denying that I am a sinner, but again, if you tell me your life story and want my opinion, I’ll give it to you. Would that make me a Pharisee for saying something you are doing is wrong? I am not hating her, rejecting her or insulting her. I am just giving her my honest opinion as to why I think her actions are wrong, and they are objectively wrong for all what has been explained here. God bless you all.

 

[baylee]

You can seriously pose this question? Most practising Catholics are very shaky on “what the Church thinks” about sex. The chances are extremely good that a lesbian who is not interested in organized religion will not know the Church’s teaching about sex (in any meaningful sense of the word ‘know’).

From the OP: *She justifies herself saying that she believes God loves her, but she doesn’t believe in organized religions, who are usually the ones that condemn gay relations. *

It sounds like she already knows how the Church feels about gay sex and she has chosen to disregard it.

 

[baylee]

Ok Ladies and Gents,
I wasn’t going to post her email word by word, but roughly her reaction to the issue, as I thought you were all interested in knowing how she reacted (specially since you’ve been so engaged in answering my post). But no one is giving up her name, email address, and entire communication, it’s just the issue in question. As for being a Pharisee, I am not denying that I am a sinner, but again, if you tell me your life story and want my opinion, I’ll give it to you. Would that make me a Pharisee for saying something you are doing is wrong? I am not hating her, rejecting her or insulting her. I am just giving her my honest opinion as to why I think her actions are wrong, and they are objectively wrong for all what has been explained here. God bless you all.

However, has she asked for your opinion here? If anything, she has already given you the heads up…how she feels about organized religion…but you insist on telling her why she should agree with organized religion.

 

[surritter]

It’s true that most people “know” what the Church teaches regarding this topic, but the problem is that they think it is an arbitrary teaching. The world needs to know that there is extreme logic behind this teaching, namely that sex and procreation have a natural link, and to distort their connection is unnatural.

So it’s no problem to offer to explain what the Church teaches, if she is willing to hear the deeper version. Of course, given your relationship, I wouldn’t start in on this big discourse without her explicit permission.

 

[baylee]

It’s true that most people “know” what the Church teaches regarding this topic, but the problem is that they think it is an arbitrary teaching. The world needs to know that there is extreme logic behind this teaching, namely that sex and procreation have a natural link, and to distort their connection is unnatural.

So it’s no problem to offer to explain what the Church teaches, if she is willing to hear the deeper version. Of course, given your relationship, I wouldn’t start in on this big discourse without her explicit permission.

Honestly, I’d wager a bet that most gays know that the Church thinks their lifestyle is unnatural…and that alone is not going to change their minds.

I do agree that the OP’s relationship with her “friend” (or lack thereof) is huge factor here.

 

[surritter]

Baylee, I think you have no idea how distorted our society is. They may have heard the phrase “unnatural relations,” but they really are floored when I mention that sex and procreation should never be separated.

Think about it – even Catholic heterosexual couples don’t bat an eye about contraception. So do you think practicing homosexuals really know the LOGIC behind the phrase “unnatural”?

 

[OraLabora]

Where do you get this? If one is not a “duly instituted minister,” one ought not to try to share the gospel with a friend? That is so obviously wrong. If your spiritual director is telling you stuff like this, maybe you need a new one?

Please. My spiritual director is a very orthodox, 72 year-old Benedictine monk. He is not saying “don’t share the Gospel”. He is saying that criticism of one who isn’t there yet, isn’t sharing the Gospel. He is saying that the best way to share the Gospels is to live them and let them shine through your life and let others be attracted to that light.

In the story of Jesus and the adulteress, Jesus was teaching and was routinely condemned by the Pharisees who put him on the spot. But we aren’t sinless Jesus. We are not even trained in pastoral care. Telling a lesbian that her lifestyle is sending her to hell almost certainly will turn her off even more. If any one of us, a single one, were to stand up and tell the lesbian friend this, we would be no better than a Pharisee casting a stone at the adulteress. Because we are all sinners. None of us have the authority to say to a sinner, what Jesus said to the adulteress.

Jesus forgave her sin, and told her to go and sin no more, and this parable is to me the institution of the sacrament of reconciliation which certainly is the sole prerogative of an ordained priest. We as laypeople certainly have the power to forgive sins committed against us, but we don’t have the authority to forgive others’ sins against God. To think that we can place ourselves in the position of Jesus and say the same thing to a lesbian that Jesus said to an adulteress is laughable in the extreme.

So maybe you have anger issues,

I certainly do on this issue. PM me if you want to know why, I don’t broadcast my private life.

but sharing the gospel with a friend is not about pointing fingers

And pointing fingers is not sharing the gospel. The OP wanted to know how to respond to her lesbian friend’s lifestyle. I suggest with love and prayer. I am not suggesting that she act as an “enabler”. But I am also not suggesting that she stake out a position of moral superiority because she, a Catholic, somehow knows better than her non-believing lesbian friend.

 

[OraLabora]

Here is how I would respond.

“Honey, you are one of my best friends. I love you and only want the best for you. I am a practicing Catholic, and I could not in good conscience attend a same sex wedding. Know that I will be praying for you, and will look forward to buying you lunch next Tuesday.”

I would leave out the “I am a practicing Catholic, and I could not in good conscience attend a same sex wedding.”

There is just no way to say it without sounding holier than thou.

I would simply say “It’s so nice to see you again; sorry I don’t think I can make it to your ceremony, but maybe we can catch up with each other over lunch or coffee next week”.

I would make a very conscious point of using the word ceremony instead of wedding, to indicate that I don’t think it is a wedding.

It isn’t silence, it isn’t acceptance, and it isn’t lying. But it isn’t condemnation either, just an accurate reflection of one’s beliefs.