How to test the truth of a religion

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This is a reminder that this thread is all about testing the truth of a religion and when I started this thread, I intended to show that the Qur’an does indeed pass this test of truthfulness that it sets for itself.

However, if there is a test whereby the Bible or any other scripture can be proven to be true, then please feel free to post these evidences.

In the meantime, I think I will continue to post evidences to show that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and if anyone wishes to dispute these evidences, kindly feel free to do so as well for this is indeed what the Qur’an invites you to do i.e. to find discrepancies in it.

There is a verse of the Qur’an which was brought up recently in another thread which actually provides another piece of evidence to prove the divine source of the Qur’an.

004.056
**Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. **

http://www.jalyat.net/images/sk(name removed by moderator)ic.jpg

The skin (see the figure) is the center of sensitivity to burns. Thus, if the skin is completely burnt by fire, it looses its sensitivity. It is for this reason that Allah will punish the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment by returning to them their skins time after time, as He, the Exalted and Glorified, says in the Qur’an. It is clear that the Holy Qur’an states a well-known modern scientific fact, about the sensitivity of the skin, but it was revealed over 1,400 years ago in the Holy Qur’an
 
hamba2han said:
This is a reminder that this thread is all about testing the truth of a religion and when I started this thread, I intended to show that the Qur’an does indeed pass this test of truthfulness that it sets for itself.
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That is not an honest test because since the Quran sets its own test, it cannot fail! That is circular reasoning. In other words, the Quran is the word of God because the Quran says so! That is not proof!

I’m sorry but even a child can see through that argument!

You’ll have to come up with something better than that to explain why you think the Quran is the word of God!

Mind you, you won’t change my mind, because I have too many objections to both the Quran and Muhammad as a prophet and am firm in my beliefs, but I am curious to see if you can give us a better explanation as to why you believe what you do.
However, if there is a test whereby the Bible or any other scripture can be proven to be true, then please feel free to post these evidences
In the meantime, I think I will continue to post evidences to show that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and if anyone wishes to dispute these evidences, kindly feel free to do so as well for this is indeed what the Qur’an invites you to do i.e. to find discrepancies in it.

There is a verse of the Qur’an which was brought up recently in another thread which actually provides another piece of evidence to prove the divine source of the Qur’an.

004.056
**Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. **

http://www.jalyat.net/images/sk(name removed by moderator)ic.jpg

The skin (see the figure) is the center of sensitivity to burns. Thus, if the skin is completely burnt by fire, it looses its sensitivity. It is for this reason that Allah will punish the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment by returning to them their skins time after time, as He, the Exalted and Glorified, says in the Qur’an. It is clear that the Holy Qur’an states a well-known modern scientific fact, about the sensitivity of the skin, but it was revealed over 1,400 years ago in the Holy Qur’an
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I cannot see what that proves other than that Allah loves to torture people and uses such threats to keep his followers enslaved to him. Not a loving God, and certainly very different to the God that was revealed to us.

Hamba, again you’ll have to give other reasons than the so-called scientific miracles in the Quran. It has already been pointed out to you countless times that there are many discrepancies and errors in the Quran even if you don’t think so! That sort of thing won’t convince anyone here.

Please don’t quote the beauty of the Quran, or any miracles in it, or that no one but God could have inspired it, or because Muhammad was illiterate or anything of those things that have been rehashed so many times before. Again, those things are not convincing. Bring us some fresh ideas.

Surely you can come up with something else.

Vickie
 
hamba2han said:
In the meantime, I think I will continue to post evidences to show that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and if anyone wishes to dispute these evidences, kindly feel free to do so as well for this is indeed what the Qur’an invites you to do i.e. to find discrepancies in it.
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As has been stated here ad nausem… since Muslims believe it is totally impossible to find any discrepancies from the start what is the point.

Good luck with your closemind and hateful god hamba2han. I see no point in even continuing this discussion so go ahead and claim a victory for Islam and brag to all your buddies. I am sure they will be far more impressed than God will be on the day of Judgement. May God have mercy on your soul. Believe it or not I will pray for you.
 
hamba, you have ignored our challenges to the quran. We have pointed out discrepencies in it. This isn’t Saudi Arabia, you can just declare victory and make it stick. The quran is the word of muhammed who was more of a warlord then anything else. I will bet my soul that the Bible is the word of God and that the quran is false. If you can ever actually answer our challenges then feel free to do so.
 
hamba2han said:
For anyone who might still be unclear as to what I am alluding to here, perhaps this might help:

Think of the Qur’an as the ultimate ‘memo’ just as you would think of God as the ultimate ‘boss’.

You should also think of Paradise as the ultimate ‘promotion’… and Hell as the ultimate ‘demotion’.
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Based on the fact it claims that it is. That’s not a memo. That’s a CIRCULAR !👍
 
A book entitled Earth is a basic reference textbook in many universities around the world. One of its two authors is Professor Emeritus Frank Press. He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC. His book says that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg.

http://www.jalyat.net/images/ocean.jpg
Figure 1: Mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground. (Earth, Press and Siever, P. 413

http://www.jalyat.net/images/mountain.jpg
Figure 2: Schematic section. The mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground.
(Anatomy of the Earth, Cailleux, p. 220.)

http://www.jalyat.net/images/mountain3.jpg
Figure 3: Another illustration shows how the mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots.
(Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p. 158.)

This is how the Qur’an has described mountains. God has said in the Qur’an:

Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Qur’an, 78:6-7)

Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word ‘peg,’ since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Qur’an:

And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you… (Qur’an, 16:15)

Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.

Could anyone during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have known of the true shape of mountains? Could anyone imagine that the solid massive mountain which he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert? A large number of books of geology, when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is above the surface of the earth. This is because these books were not written by specialists in geology. However, modern geology has confirmed the truth of the Qur’anic verses.
 
hamba, you show exactly why islam has no intellectual tradition left. Ignoring our questions won’t make them go away. This is the equivalent of a child putting his hands over his ears and saying “nah nah nah” so he won’t hear what is being said. Btw, the earth is a bed? It has covers and sheets? Where are the pillows? I thought it was a sphere? So you are saying the earth is flat? The quran is nonsense.
 
The word ‘bed’ is just one of the translations used.

Other translations for that particular verse can be seen as follows:

078.006
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
PICKTHAL: Have We not made the earth an expanse,
SHAKIR: Have We not made the earth an even expanse?
 
hamba2han,
We are at an impass. Nothing you have said or will say will change my mind, and apparently nothing I say or offer will change yours since you are uinwilling to accept a fair challange. Let’s cut to the quick.

I am a “People of the Book” and do not accept Islam. I declare now I never will accept that Muhammed was a prophet of God, and that which he said in the name of God, I reject.

Assume you are as devoute a Muslim as I am a Catholic.

What is my fate? What is yours?
 
I will pose this question again:

Quote (Ham):For those who are refusing to accept the truth of the Qur’an, the question that you should be asking yourself is:Does the scripture that you believe in pass the same test of truthfulness that you obviously feel the Qur’an does not?

​
But I DO believe that the koran passes the test that it sets itself…!! (…as far as I can tell)That test is not applicable to the Bible, nor the full deposit of faith, so it makes no difference whether it passes that test or not.**Your task is to explain why that test SHOULD be applied to the Bible. Please answer that question.**If you can’t answer a responsible question, then there is no further reason to listen to anything you have to say.

Please try to be a responsible conversant!
This is a reminder that this thread is all about testing the truth of a religion and when I started this thread, I intended to show that the Qur’an does indeed pass this test of truthfulness that it sets for itself.

However, if there is a test whereby the Bible or any other scripture can be proven to be true, then please feel free to post these evidences.
Click to expand...
The Bible, and deposit of faith, have no need to “prove itself” because it is not self conscious of it’s veracity.

It KNOWS it is the truth, and you can accept it as such, or not.

Your job is to disprove it,… not for it to prove itself.
In the meantime, I think I will continue to post evidences to show that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and if anyone wishes to dispute these evidences, kindly feel free to do so as well for this is indeed what the Qur’an invites you to do i.e. to find discrepancies in it.

There is a verse of the Qur’an which was brought up recently in another thread which actually provides another piece of evidence to prove the divine source of the Qur’an.

004.056
**Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. **

http://www.jalyat.net/images/sk(name removed by moderator)ic.jpg

The skin (see the figure) is the center of sensitivity to burns. Thus, if the skin is completely burnt by fire, it looses its sensitivity. It is for this reason that Allah will punish the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment by returning to them their skins time after time, as He, the Exalted and Glorified, says in the Qur’an. It is clear that the Holy Qur’an states a well-known modern scientific fact, about the sensitivity of the skin, but it was revealed over 1,400 years ago in the Holy Qur’an
Click to expand...
OR,… the arabs of the time, just like most savages of the time, knew that people tended to get “numb” from tissue damage, and that the “heavenly” (!?) torture would be to miraculously restore “numbed” tissue to pristine condition so that it would cease to be numb…!?

That itself would be a great prayer of torturers: "May my victims become whole as I wound so that they may never cease in pain!"

But then,… that IS the islamic god. The One True Torturer and Slaver.

More moslem stupidity.

Let’s have another one, Ham…!! 🙂

You’re too easy, dude…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
Kaninchen said:
I really can’t wait to see the prediction that water is wet.
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Oh,… I’ve got the TRUE religion,

It’s called “Obviism”.

“Water is wet,… unless it’s not!”
“The sky tends to be blue,… unless it isn’t!”
“Pain hurts,… unless it doesn’t!”

My god is a humorous god. And full of wise wisdom.

And what is my test of “wisdom”?

As it states in our Holy Books:

"Wisdom is wise, and nothing can be wise that is in this book that is not wise,… unless it isn’t."

The Great Obvi has spoken…

…

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
I had a Muslim emailing the same cut and pasted “science of the Koran” - probably got it from the same source. It’s interesting that having said earlier that the Koran is not a book of science you are returning to trying to prove that it is. You also continue to avoid answering questions, preferring to just have a one way conversation when it suits you.
I will repeat - if you claim the Koran must be the word of God because of the scientific truths in it, then you must accept it cannot be the word of God if there are any errors.
As there are glaring errors eg in the embryology then if you are at all sincere (as you claim to be) then you must agree that the Koran cannot be the word of God.
Picking a few chosen sentences and by considerable mental gymnastics claiming they show great scientific insights (which strangely could only be seen after said discoveries were made) convinces nobody with any scientific education.
 
hamba2han said:
The word ‘bed’ is just one of the translations used.

Other translations for that particular verse can be seen as follows:

078.006
YUSUFALI: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
PICKTHAL: Have We not made the earth an expanse,
SHAKIR: Have We not made the earth an even expanse?
Click to expand...
Fascinating. The literalistic mindset doesn’t even understand what lay beneath my question. Again this shows why islam is so far behind in scholarship.
 
The Qur’an on Seas and Rivers:

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth.


Figure 1: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Qur’an mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:

** He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.** (Qur’an, 55:19-20)

But when the Qur’an speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Qur’an:

**He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. ** (Qur’an, 25:53)

One may ask, why did the Qur’an mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.



Figure 2: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).
 
hamba2han said:
The Qur’an on Seas and Rivers:

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e-img1-big.jpg
Figure 1: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)

Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Qur’an mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:

** He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.** (Qur’an, 55:19-20)

But when the Qur’an speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier. God has said in the Qur’an:

**He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition. ** (Qur’an, 25:53)

One may ask, why did the Qur’an mention the partition when speaking about the divider between fresh and salt water, but did not mention it when speaking about the divider between the two seas?

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e-img2-big.jpg

Figure 2: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).
Click to expand...
What does this prove, considering that you said yourself that the Qu’ran is not a science textbook?

Do you have any interest in engaging in discussion on this thread, or are you just going to copy and paste the entire Qu’ran here, bit by bit, rambling various things about how wonderful it all is? If the latter is the case, I think a blog would be more appropriate than a thread. If the former is the case, why don’t you stop ignoring the rest of the posters on this thread?
 
While it is true that I said that the Qur’an is not a science textbook, nevertheless it does contain numerous scientific facts which are indeed testable in order to determine it’s accuracy… which is exactly the subject of this thread.
 
If the Bible says the sky is blue does that prove it is an infallible revelation from God? You don’t think ancient people noticed that fresh and saltwater don’t mix? I think that fact did not escape them, so the quran is not unique at all in that regard. What you are doing is called eisegesis. You take a fact and then find something that SEEMS to support it, no matter who absurdly, and claim voila your book is special. It isn’t. We can do the same with the Bible.
 
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