How to test the truth of a religion

[hamba2han]

Let me ask you this: Let’s say I were to write a book (since you’re so fond of scientific facts let’s say it would be a science book), and I did my research very carefully, to the extent that everything in there would be 100% scientifically accurate. Let’s say I had academic rivals who wanted to discredit me by finding an inaccuracy or contradiction in my book, but alas for them, my book is so accurate, they can’t find a single mistake in there. Does the accuracy of my book and the lack of errors make me God?

There is a condition here that first has to be fulfilled i.e. you need to write your book stating these scientific facts about 1,000 or so years before they are discovered to be accurate, commit no discrepancies whatsoever in your 6,000 verse book… and at the same time write it in a language form and structure that has not been seen before in history and which absolutely no one alive or dead can imitate even if they were offered a hundred billion dollars as a reward to produce a few chapters like what is written in your book.

If you can do this, then I will definitely consider checking out your claim that it was a much higher authority than you who actually authored it.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

As for the matter of abrogated verses, this has been explained before in this thread and just to recap:

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that eventually embraced wholeheartedly a monotheistic belief based on the oneness and supremeness of their Creator.

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

Once the structure of the building has been constructed, there was no longer any need to retain the scaffolding.

…{snip}…

This is a great explanation of islam.

It was a construction intended to bring a polytheistic society into a monotheism that would better facilitate control by the innovator of that monotheism.

No one doubts the positive effects of monotheism. The question is the god on which that monotheism is based.

Since the god of islam is patently not the God of what islam claims islam is based on, as it invalidates all of the books of the God of it’s own base, it must have as it’s god some other god who is not God.

The construction of the “building” of islam is for real, and a magnificient achievement, but it is not a construction of God.

It’s god is, like all demons, capable of fantastic achievements, but in the end is only a “tool” of God, as were the god’s of egypt, for example, who helped the people of Egypt create a nation that God would use for His own purposes.

Ham,… islam and it’s god are a great and powerful tool.

Yet,… why live within and worship a tool?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[cestusdei]

hamba, we all know how muslims just love Jews. It really shows. You just call them monkeys as an affectionate nickname right? Muhammed just killed a whole tribe of them as a practical joke right? 5:60, 2:65, 7:166.

Islam is NOT the fastest growing religion in the US or Europe. I don’t know a single person who has converted. You muslims constantly inflate numbers, a sure sign of weakness.

 

[Valke2]

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

As for the matter of abrogated verses, this has been explained before in this thread and just to recap:

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that eventually embraced wholeheartedly a monotheistic belief based on the oneness and supremeness of their Creator.

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

Once the structure of the building has been constructed, there was no longer any need to retain the scaffolding.

In short, it was certainly not a case of the Creator changing His mind but rather it was done with definite design, purpose and intent right from the beginning… and so, there is no discrepancy here at all.

As for the “verse of the sword” that you mentioned, could this be the reason why Islam is the fastest growing major religion in both America and Europe?

As for new teachings which later sprang up like “Mu’tazilism”, what has this got to do with the subject of the thread?

As for your assertion that parts of the Qur’an are still not fully understood yet, this is because it contains much knowledge that we have still not uncovered yet due to our own limitations as human beings.

There is absolutely no discrepancy here.

Your explanation of abrogated verses is almost a text book definition of discrepancy.

 

[exoflare]

Your explanation of abrogated verses is almost a text book definition of discrepancy.

Yeah, welcome to Islamic “Logic” 101

 

[Valke2]

7:166, 2:65, and 5:60.

7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, “Become apes—despised and disgraced!”

2:65 2:65 And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: “Be apes—despised and hated by all.” 66 Thus We made their end a warning to the people of their time and succeeding generation, and an admonition for God-fearing people. (Maududi)

early Muslim sources and classical commentators, largely agree that Allah transformed them literally. For example, Ibn Ishaq, an early and largely reliable biographer of Muhammad, takes the metamorphosis literally, and he has Muhammad calling the Medinan Jewish clan, Qurayzah, “brothers of monkeys.” This implies that Muhammad takes the transformation physically. Medieval commentator Ibn Kathir references Ibn Abbas, Muhammad’s cousin, who interpreted this metamorphosis literally, again implying that Muhammad did too. The Iranian Medieval commentator Razi, widely respected even today, speculates that perhaps the “accidents” or appearances of the Jews were changed, but they kept their mental awareness. Even the Medieval mystic and commentator Ibn Arabi says that the transformation, at its base, is real and not metaphorical, though he puts mystical spins on the verse.

 

[Valke2]

5:60 Then say: “Should I inform you [People of the Book] of those, who will have even worse recompense from Allah than the transgressors? They are those whom Allah has cursed; who have been under His wrath; some of whom were turned into apes and swine; who worshipped taghut [the devil or idols]; those are the people who are in a far worse plight and who have turned farthest away from the Right Way.” (Maududi)

 

[bdm3]

Let me give you a hypothetical example…I call my religion Davidianism. In Davidianism, the prophet recieved the Sacred Scriptures directly from God. That hypothetical “Scripture” is very simple, it says only these words:

“There is no God but God, and ITSJUSTDAVE1988 is his prophet”.

I say to you all, “examine and try your best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within these Scriptures. Determine for yourselves the Truth of Davidianism.”

Since my Scriptures do not contain any discrepancies, no contradictions whatsoever, then Davidianism must be truly from God, right? Should my hypothetical religion be convincing to anyone?

Great post. Logic prevails.

 

[bdm3]

As for the “verse of the sword” that you mentioned, could this be the reason why Islam is the fastest growing major religion in both America and Europe?

QUOTE]

A couple of observations:

1. That Islam is the fastest growing religion in America or Europe does not say anything meaningful other that its growing faster than other religions in America or Europe. This goes directly into the next point.
2. Christianity has been the dominant religion in America and Europe historically. It stands to reason then that Islam, since it has fewer believers in Europe or America than does Christianity, will be growing faster.

Example:
Religion A in year x has 100 adherents.
Religion B in year x has 2 adherents.

In year x+1, Religion A adds 20 new believers, bringing its total to 120 while Religion B adds 2 new believers, bringing its number to 4. Religion A only grows 20 percent in contrast to religion B which grows 100 percent. Thats an 80 percent difference, which sounds impressive but there is an overall greater number of believers of Religion A.

My point here is to illustrate how growth rates of Islam, either real or perceived really have nothing to do with whether or not Islam (or Christianity for that matter) is true. It’s a non argument for the truth of either.

 

[Valke2]

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Where is this stated in the Qur’an? (that the Jews killed Jesus)

Wretchedness and baseness were stamped upon them |Jews] and they drew on themselves the wrath of God. This was because they disbelieved the signs of God and slew the Prophets unjustly, and because they rebelled and transgressed." (Surah II.61)

 

[Morning_Star15]

There is a condition here that first has to be fulfilled i.e. you need to write your book stating these scientific facts about 1,000 or so years before they are discovered to be accurate, commit no discrepancies whatsoever in your 6,000 verse book… and at the same time write it in a language form and structure that has not been seen before in history and which absolutely no one alive or dead can imitate even if they were offered a hundred billion dollars as a reward to produce a few chapters like what is written in your book.

A few chapters? I thought you said that one surah was sufficient…

If you can do this, then I will definitely consider checking out your claim that it was a much higher authority than you who actually authored it.

Hmm, how different than what you said in your OP, Hamba2an. There you just said that the challenge of finding an error or discrepancy in the Qu’ran was the only necessary test to determine the validity of Islam. Now there are other necessary tests as well.

But then, that’s how this thread has progressed:

1. you said that the lack of internal discrepancies in the Qu’ran proves that it’s the Word of God
2. other posters pointed out that there are internal discrepancies, and, more importantly, pointed out that this sort of test is meaningless and illogical
3. you added a second test to the one sufficient test, saying that the Qu’ran had to be scientifically accurate as well
4. other posters pointed out the Qu’ran’s scientific inaccuracies
5. then you said that the Qu’ran is not a science textbook, and you added yet another test to the one sufficient test, that of the Qu’ran being too beautiful and poetic to imitate
6. other posters pointed out that this test is too subjective (who defines what’s “more beatiful” and “more poetic” than something else?) and also meaningless, because the judge of the beauty and style of the surah that would challenge the Qu’ran would already be convinced that nothing is more beautiful or poetic than the Qu’ran (and probably wouldn’t risk his life by admitting that the challenge had been met).
7. you then returned to trying to prove the Qu’ran’s scientific accuracy, which the other posters had already disproved.

Well, it looks to me that you’re going to keep coming up with tests to try to prove that the Qu’ran is the Word of God, despite your claim that the first test was sufficient.

 

[Morning_Star15]

The proof of the Qur’an does not depend on the truth and accuracy of individual verses or passages that is found within it but rather, it is the collective sum of all of these evidences which really proves that the Qur’an is the Word of the Creator.

Then why have you been trying to prove that the Qu’ran is the Word of the Creator by citing individual verses and passages to show how accurate they are?

 

[hamba2han]

Valke2, I think it is best that the Qur’an itself answer your accusations against it.

** V.2:2 This is the Book (the Quran), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)).

Surah 2:
62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
63 And (O Children of Israel, remember) when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying): "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein so that you may become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2).
64 Then after that you turned away. Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah upon you, indeed you would have been among the losers.
65 And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: “Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.”
66 So We made this punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2).**

As you can see, this passage does not say that ALL Jews are descendants of apes, only that some ancient Jews were transformed into monkeys on account that they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath.

 

[Booklover]

First, you are not quoting the Qur’an but a hadith and this takes it outside the scope of this subject as the ahadith does not set a falsification test for itself like the Qur’an does.

Second, have you ever seen the devil before in your life?.. If so, what does it look like and where does it live at any point in time during the day?

How can one know for certain how right or wrong this particular hadith is if not by faith alone?

Third, since you are looking at the ahadith so intently, you really should try to find the answer to this question:

Why is the form and structure of the language used in the ahadith so different from that of the Qur’an?

After all, aren’t the words found in both written in Arabic and originated from the lips of the same man?

So Muslims actually believe this since they wash out their noses every morning before prayer! :hypno:

I suppose you also believe that the devil urinates in the ears of those who fall asleep during prayer! Another pearl of wisdom from Muhammad! Does that make sense to you? Keeping people from prayer would be much more in accordance with his agenda.

With such beliefs do you expect to be taken seriously?

Vickie

 

[Valke2]

Sufficce it to say that I learned a few things here. One being that in the past muslims did not view the Qu’ran quite the same way they do today. That the Qu’ran has contradictory passages, in which the later takes precedence over the former, and that in engaging in politics or debate, muslims can use whatever verse suits the moment. So that, for example, now that it has become fashinable to compare jews to pigs and apes in many parts of the Islamic world, we see this verse being used often, by both laymen and clergy.

When one wants to promote peace, there are verses that are relied on to promote peace. At teh same time, I’ve seen moderate muslims agree that anyone trying to leave Islam should be killed (which never made sense to me for many reasons, one being that it deprives teh person of a chance to come back to Islam).

It seems to me, as an outsider, that Islam is in desperate need of a reformation.

 

[hamba2han]

It seems to me, as an outsider, that Islam is in desperate need of a reformation.

The Truth comes from the Creator and therefore it certainly does not require any reformation whatsoever and only those who willingly choose not to follow it are in urgent need of reforming themselves before they face their Creator on the Day of Judgment.

 

[Booklover]

Sufficce it to say that I learned a few things here. One being that in the past muslims did not view the Qu’ran quite the same way they do today. That the Qu’ran has contradictory passages, in which the later takes precedence over the former, and that in engaging in politics or debate, muslims can use whatever verse suits the moment. So that, for example, now that it has become fashinable to compare jews to pigs and apes in many parts of the Islamic world, we see this verse being used often, by both laymen and clergy.

When one wants to promote peace, there are verses that are relied on to promote peace. At teh same time, I’ve seen moderate muslims agree that anyone trying to leave Islam should be killed (which never made sense to me for many reasons, one being that it deprives teh person of a chance to come back to Islam).

It seems to me, as an outsider, that Islam is in desperate need of a reformation.

Excellent!

Vickie

 

[cestusdei]

hamba, maybe you could post the scientific method by which Allah turned Jews into monkeys. I might find that convincing.

 

[Valke2]

hamba, maybe you could post the scientific method by which Allah turned Jews into monkeys. I might find that convincing.

heh.

 

[hamba2han]

hamba, maybe you could post the scientific method by which Allah turned Jews into monkeys. I might find that convincing.

Not quite sure of the science… but I figure it should not be that much more difficult than turning water into wine.