C
cestusdei
Guest
But you claim that the quran is scientific. Here is your chance to convert me. Let’s see some science on making humans into monkeys, sort of Darwin in reverse. This could have a profound impact.
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J
jack_hawkins
Guest
Yup, I can definitely agree with that sentiment!
When a Saudi school in the UK is still using textbooks with these hateful views, we see that Islam has a long way to go before it is civilized.
K
Keikiolu
Guest
Why does Ham not answer my questions?
The reason is obvious.
He’s quite “persistent” in claiming “islam is proven by itself, in itself, without reference to that which even itself says it’s based, which it abrogates unless it itself contains that which it claims it’s based on from outside itself”,…
…but,… there IS no answer to WHY it can’t prove itself with itself, other than it’s impossible to do so in a way that is convincing to anyone who doesn’t already believe it is what it says it is, who have convinced themselves that everything claimed by it as “support” which is from elsewhere has been “altered” by Satan.
Which is a perfectly logical conclusion.
But it’s also a perfectly “insane” (paranoid schizophrenic) conclusion.
Most moslems are not insane,… they are simply uneducated in the implications of their “religion”, and their “leaders” purposefully and intentionally reinforce their “flock’s” lack of knowledge, to facilitate their political purposes.
Ham’s demonstrated behavior of evasion and non-responsiveness is typical of a “fervent” follower of islam,… and will only serve to drive them further into their delusions.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
H
hamba2han
Guest
The Qur’an on Clouds:
Scientists have studied cloud types and have realized that rain clouds are formed and shaped according to definite systems and certain steps connected with certain types of wind and clouds.
One kind of rain cloud is the cumulonimbus cloud. Meteorologists have studied how cumulonimbus clouds are formed and how they produce rain, hail, and lightning.
They have found that cumulonimbus clouds go through the following steps to produce rain:
Figure 17: Satellite photo showing the clouds moving towards the convergence areas B, C, and D. The arrows indicate the directions of the wind. (The Use of Satellite Pictures in Weather Analysis and Forecasting, Anderson and others, p. 188.)
Figure 18: Small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds) moving towards a convergence zone near the horizon, where we can see a large cumulonimbus cloud. (Clouds and Storms, Ludlam, plate 7.4.)
Figure 19: (A) Isolated small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds). (B) When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase, so the cloud is stacked up. Water drops are indicated by ·. (The Atmosphere, Anthes and others, p. 269.)
to be continued:
Scientists have studied cloud types and have realized that rain clouds are formed and shaped according to definite systems and certain steps connected with certain types of wind and clouds.
One kind of rain cloud is the cumulonimbus cloud. Meteorologists have studied how cumulonimbus clouds are formed and how they produce rain, hail, and lightning.
They have found that cumulonimbus clouds go through the following steps to produce rain:
- The clouds are pushed by the wind: Cumulonimbus clouds begin to form when wind pushes some small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds) to an area where these clouds converge (see figures 17 and 18).
Figure 17: Satellite photo showing the clouds moving towards the convergence areas B, C, and D. The arrows indicate the directions of the wind. (The Use of Satellite Pictures in Weather Analysis and Forecasting, Anderson and others, p. 188.)
Figure 18: Small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds) moving towards a convergence zone near the horizon, where we can see a large cumulonimbus cloud. (Clouds and Storms, Ludlam, plate 7.4.)
- Joining: Then the small clouds join together forming a larger cloud1 (see figures 18 and 19).
Figure 19: (A) Isolated small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds). (B) When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase, so the cloud is stacked up. Water drops are indicated by ·. (The Atmosphere, Anthes and others, p. 269.)
to be continued:
H
hamba2han
Guest
cont:
Figure 20: A cumulonimbus cloud. After the cloud is stacked up, rain comes out of it. (Weather and Climate, Bodin, p.123.)
Figure 21: A cumulonimbus cloud. (A Colour Guide to Clouds, Scorer and Wexler, p. 23.)
God has said in the Qur’an:
**Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it… ** (Qur’an, 24:43)
Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment, to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.
The preceding verse, after mentioning clouds and rain, speaks about hail and lightning:
** …And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.** (Qur’an, 24:43)
Meteorologists have found that these cumulonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft (4.7 to 5.7 miles), like mountains, as the Qur’an said, “…And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky…” (see figure 21 above).
This verse may raise a question. Why does the verse say “its lightning” in a reference to the hail? Does this mean that hail is the major factor in producing lightning? Let us see what the book entitled Meteorology Today says about this. It says that a cloud becomes electrified as hail falls through a region in the cloud of supercooled droplets and ice crystals. As liquid droplets collide with a hailstone, they freeze on contact and release latent heat. This keeps the surface of the hailstone warmer than that of the surrounding ice crystals. When the hailstone comes in contact with an ice crystal, an important phenomenon occurs: electrons flow from the colder object toward the warmer object. Hence, the hailstone becomes negatively charged. The same effect occurs when supercooled droplets come in contact with a hailstone and tiny splinters of positively charged ice break off. These lighter positively charged particles are then carried to the upper part of the cloud by updrafts. The hail, left with a negative charge, falls towards the bottom of the cloud, thus the lower part of the cloud becomes negatively charged. These negative charges are then discharged as lightning. We conclude from this that hail is the major factor in producing lightning.
This information on lightning was discovered recently. Until 1600 C.E., Aristotle’s ideas on meteorology were dominant. For example, he said that the atmosphere contains two kinds of exhalation, moist and dry. He also said that thunder is the sound of the collision of the dry exhalation with the neighboring clouds, and lightning is the inflaming and burning of the dry exhalation with a thin and faint fire. These are some of the ideas on meteorology that were dominant at the time of the Qur’an’s revelation, fourteen centuries ago.
- Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the center of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges. These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up (see figures 19 (B), 20, and 21). This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc.
Figure 20: A cumulonimbus cloud. After the cloud is stacked up, rain comes out of it. (Weather and Climate, Bodin, p.123.)
Figure 21: A cumulonimbus cloud. (A Colour Guide to Clouds, Scorer and Wexler, p. 23.)
God has said in the Qur’an:
**Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it… ** (Qur’an, 24:43)
Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment, to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.
The preceding verse, after mentioning clouds and rain, speaks about hail and lightning:
** …And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.** (Qur’an, 24:43)
Meteorologists have found that these cumulonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft (4.7 to 5.7 miles), like mountains, as the Qur’an said, “…And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky…” (see figure 21 above).
This verse may raise a question. Why does the verse say “its lightning” in a reference to the hail? Does this mean that hail is the major factor in producing lightning? Let us see what the book entitled Meteorology Today says about this. It says that a cloud becomes electrified as hail falls through a region in the cloud of supercooled droplets and ice crystals. As liquid droplets collide with a hailstone, they freeze on contact and release latent heat. This keeps the surface of the hailstone warmer than that of the surrounding ice crystals. When the hailstone comes in contact with an ice crystal, an important phenomenon occurs: electrons flow from the colder object toward the warmer object. Hence, the hailstone becomes negatively charged. The same effect occurs when supercooled droplets come in contact with a hailstone and tiny splinters of positively charged ice break off. These lighter positively charged particles are then carried to the upper part of the cloud by updrafts. The hail, left with a negative charge, falls towards the bottom of the cloud, thus the lower part of the cloud becomes negatively charged. These negative charges are then discharged as lightning. We conclude from this that hail is the major factor in producing lightning.
This information on lightning was discovered recently. Until 1600 C.E., Aristotle’s ideas on meteorology were dominant. For example, he said that the atmosphere contains two kinds of exhalation, moist and dry. He also said that thunder is the sound of the collision of the dry exhalation with the neighboring clouds, and lightning is the inflaming and burning of the dry exhalation with a thin and faint fire. These are some of the ideas on meteorology that were dominant at the time of the Qur’an’s revelation, fourteen centuries ago.
V
Valke2
Guest
WIth all this advance scientific knowledge that has been available to Mulsims for all these centuries, it is a wonder that there are not more scientific breakthroughs attributed to the muslim communities.
In spite of your assertion that this was unkown at the time of the Quran, by looking at the words in Quran, it is apparent that these were events that could and were observed at the time it was written… “i.e., seeing clouds coming gently together and stacking”. Whatever the original arabic is, it seems to be referring to an observable event, not something that was unknown.
The Qu’ran here describes an observation not a miracle of science.
In spite of your assertion that this was unkown at the time of the Quran, by looking at the words in Quran, it is apparent that these were events that could and were observed at the time it was written… “i.e., seeing clouds coming gently together and stacking”. Whatever the original arabic is, it seems to be referring to an observable event, not something that was unknown.
The Qu’ran here describes an observation not a miracle of science.
M
Morning_Star15
Guest
Hamba2an, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you’re acting like a five-year-old who gets into an argument with his sibling and sticks his fingers in his ears, saying “na-na-na-na, I’m not listening!” when the sibling has something to say.
Here we are, trying to engage in a thoughtful, meaningful discussion, giving you the courtesy of having your posts read, and you’re ignoring everything we’re posting, choosing instead to post passages from the Qu’ran (an exercise that you yourself said was meaningless because individual passages from the Qu’ran don’t prove anything about its authenticity, the Qu’ran in its entirety does).
Thankfully I have gone to university with Muslims who are intelligent people and capable of having a serious, two-sided discussion about various topics, including the Qu’ran. Thanks to them, I know that not all Muslims behave the way you’re behaving on this thread. This must be the most ridiculous discussion I’ve ever participated in, so I will now be leaving it.
I don’t know why I even bothered to write any of this, Hamba2an, since you’re most likely going to ignore it and copy and paste passages from the Qu’ran. Have fun doing that, just don’t expect to gain any converts through this method (or by scaring anyone either). See ya!
Here we are, trying to engage in a thoughtful, meaningful discussion, giving you the courtesy of having your posts read, and you’re ignoring everything we’re posting, choosing instead to post passages from the Qu’ran (an exercise that you yourself said was meaningless because individual passages from the Qu’ran don’t prove anything about its authenticity, the Qu’ran in its entirety does).
Thankfully I have gone to university with Muslims who are intelligent people and capable of having a serious, two-sided discussion about various topics, including the Qu’ran. Thanks to them, I know that not all Muslims behave the way you’re behaving on this thread. This must be the most ridiculous discussion I’ve ever participated in, so I will now be leaving it.
I don’t know why I even bothered to write any of this, Hamba2an, since you’re most likely going to ignore it and copy and paste passages from the Qu’ran. Have fun doing that, just don’t expect to gain any converts through this method (or by scaring anyone either). See ya!
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
Sadly, you have hit the nail on the head here. I had a very similar e-conversation with a Muslim who was very polite but just trotted out the same cut and pasted stuff about the Koran and science, and that was the extent of his communication! Very sad indictment of Muslim thought, and not persuasive in the slightest esp when a lay person is trying to tell me about embryologyHamba2an, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you’re acting like a five-year-old who gets into an argument with his sibling and sticks his fingers in his ears, saying “na-na-na-na, I’m not listening!” when the sibling has something to say.
Here we are, trying to engage in a thoughtful, meaningful discussion, giving you the courtesy of having your posts read, and you’re ignoring everything we’re posting, choosing instead to post passages from the Qu’ran (an exercise that you yourself said was meaningless because individual passages from the Qu’ran don’t prove anything about its authenticity, the Qu’ran in its entirety does).
Thankfully I have gone to university with Muslims who are intelligent people and capable of having a serious, two-sided discussion about various topics, including the Qu’ran. Thanks to them, I know that not all Muslims behave the way you’re behaving on this thread. This must be the most ridiculous discussion I’ve ever participated in, so I will now be leaving it.
I don’t know why I even bothered to write any of this, Hamba2an, since you’re most likely going to ignore it and copy and paste passages from the Qu’ran. Have fun doing that, just don’t expect to gain any converts through this method (or by scaring anyone either). See ya!
H
hamba2han
Guest
Hail is precipitation of ice pellets and as far as I know, no hail falls on the deserts of Arabia or anywhere in the region for it to be regularly observable.
For anyone who lived 1,400 years ago in the Arabian desert to have known about ice pellets falling through the clouds was for them to go up to the clouds and observed this natural phenomenon themselves.
The Truth is really like the rays of the Sun in which you can block out by covering your eyes with just one finger… but this does not mean that the Sun is not up there in the sky.
And BTW, this tidbit of information about how to block out the rays of the Sun is an observation, not what is written in the Qur’an.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
hmaba2han, you really don’t get it
go off and find a really specific verse in the Koran that refers to something that couldn’t be known by “Muhammed” - then when you can’t, come back to us and admit it!
all this vague rhubarb where you interpret nebulous verses in a language which you have repeatedly said it is difficult to translate accurately, and apply them post hoc to scientific phenomenon is absolute bunkum - but despite being told numerous times why you continue to spam
please save your blinkered fanaticism for impressing fellow Muslims:thumbsup:
go off and find a really specific verse in the Koran that refers to something that couldn’t be known by “Muhammed” - then when you can’t, come back to us and admit it!
all this vague rhubarb where you interpret nebulous verses in a language which you have repeatedly said it is difficult to translate accurately, and apply them post hoc to scientific phenomenon is absolute bunkum - but despite being told numerous times why you continue to spam
please save your blinkered fanaticism for impressing fellow Muslims:thumbsup:
G
George_Waters
Guest
WRONG!
Do your research! Arabia is more than desert and in winter hail, frost and snow can occur in the interior and the higher mountains.
Besides they had 23 years to see hail before they had to write it down right?
G
George_Waters
Guest
You know, thinking about this hamba2han and you don’t even have a clue about the geography or weather of the Arabian peninsula today, why would you think you can state a convincing (one-sided) arguement about the weather several centuries ago?
I keep coming back hoping this has become a discussion again, but it’s still the same ol cut-and-paste non-sense. Thanks for continuing to show us all the “real” Islam hamba2han!
I keep coming back hoping this has become a discussion again, but it’s still the same ol cut-and-paste non-sense. Thanks for continuing to show us all the “real” Islam hamba2han!
D
DLC
Guest
The way to know if Christianity is true, look at its founder Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Did Mohammed claim to be God? No. Jesus claimed to be God many times, John 10:28-34. Was Mohammed sinless? No. Jesus was, 2 Cor 5:21
*21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.*NASU
Look at God’s Word the Bible and find just one error in it if you can. The founder of Islam, Mohammed, does past the test of a true prophet of God, Deut. 18:22. There are many errors in the prophecies Mohammed gave. Study the Koran and one will find numerous errors in it. Look at the history of Islam and you will see that it was founded by the sword. Look at Christ and find just one time where He told his followers to kill others if they do not believe. The truth can be found if one is willing to look for it. Most are not.
Keep seaching for Jesus Christ said John 14:6
6 *Jesus said to him, "I am the way, andthe truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. *NASU
Darrel
*21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.*NASU
Look at God’s Word the Bible and find just one error in it if you can. The founder of Islam, Mohammed, does past the test of a true prophet of God, Deut. 18:22. There are many errors in the prophecies Mohammed gave. Study the Koran and one will find numerous errors in it. Look at the history of Islam and you will see that it was founded by the sword. Look at Christ and find just one time where He told his followers to kill others if they do not believe. The truth can be found if one is willing to look for it. Most are not.
Keep seaching for Jesus Christ said John 14:6
6 *Jesus said to him, "I am the way, andthe truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. *NASU
Darrel
C
cestusdei
Guest
Hmmm…clouds move and stack up. Anyone ever notice that before? Golly, this is so amazing. Clouds actually do stack up. We all need the quran to tell us so since humans have never noticed it before.
Utterly ridiculous.
I still await the Jews to monkeys explanation. Now that would impress me.
Utterly ridiculous.
I still await the Jews to monkeys explanation. Now that would impress me.
V
Valke2
Guest
Really? You sure about that?
Tornado, Sand-Storms and Oversized Hail Strike Israel
israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/101520
Flash Floods, Hail in Israel October 29, 2004
weathermatrix.net/2004/1029/
Muscat: Suwaiq, a small hamlet on the Batinah coast 125-km north of Muscat, was hit with cricket-ball sized hail as rain beat down on most parts of Oman for the whole of Saturday night bringing down mercury level to sub 20 degree centigrades.
archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/03/18/10111974.html
“I’ve never seen snow in the UAE at all. I am a UAE national and I am nearly 40 years old and I’ve never heard of it. We have seen big, big hailstones, that’s all,” said Sulaiman Mohammad, a Dubai-based forecaster
commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12498.html
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hamba2han
Guest
I will concede that occasionally hail does in fact fall in the region but I will also submit that it would surely be a too rare and infrequent event for anyone to observe and speculate on it’s probable cause and effect.
Moreover, the verse in the Qur’an does make a connection between hail and lightning and this connection has been discovered to be true by scientists only in recent times.
Moreover, the verse in the Qur’an does make a connection between hail and lightning and this connection has been discovered to be true by scientists only in recent times.
B
Booklover
Guest
Oh come off it, Hamba! The Quran states that the earth is flat! End of story!
Vickie
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
You just don’t listen do you?
Your first sentence is a very definite non sequitur for one.
Hail and lightning connected - that’s also easily observable.
Yet another failure ham.
Try really learning about science before trying to convince people who actually know and believe science.
H
hamba2han
Guest
Where is it stated in the Qur’an that the Earth is flat?
B
Booklover
Guest
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