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Baraq
Guest
In case you didnt know, you are quoting Thomas Jefferson and not the Bible… btw- Jefferson was very hostile to much of the Bible
Did that 2 year have the choice to be born 2 yrs earlier?
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Did that 2 year have the choice to be born 2 yrs earlier?
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mikeledes
Guest
Neither did Adam chose to be created. But he did chose whether to continue serving God or to sin.
God Bless,
Michael
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Teflon93
Guest
And where did Jefferson get the notion that freedom was an inalienable right endowed by the Creator? He certainly didn’t get it from John Calvin.
The 2 year old’s parents exercised their free will to conceive the child.
Free will does extend all the way back to Adam, which is the point of the thread.
God didn’t create Man to be hierodules. The fact that so many refuse to heed God manifestly shows this to be true, unless you believe the Creator to be incompetent in that He produced imperfect slaves.
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Baraq
Guest
To clarify, Eve was beguiled and Adam ate with his eyes open. Adam ate at the request of his flesh and bone. I dont call that obeying Satan but a willful sin.
Since God CHOSE his people BEFORE the foundation of the Earth was laid, its clear that what Adam would do was known.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
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mikeledes
Guest
You have not answered the question. Did Adam have free will before the fall? Did he freely chose to sin or did Go directly cause him to sin in order to accomplish His plan of salvation?
God Bless,
Michael
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Baraq
Guest
EXACTLY!! Thats why we call that event “Original Sin”
Scripture teaches that man is completely depraved since, and unable to come to saving faith without God. Thats why Calvinists believe that man can not come to a saving faith without God.
Scripture bears witness that the Calvinist position is indeed true.
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mikeledes
Guest
Catholics also believe that man cannot come to saving faith with God. God must enlighten/elevate the mind and will through His prevenient grace in order to enable man to respond to His call. We believe that God wants the free response of His creatures.
God Bless,
Michael
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Calvinator
Guest
Mike,
I am in the middle of a move so my responses are going to be sporadic at best.
Anyway, no, God did not act positively to make Adam sin nor does he actively cause anyone to sin. He may remvove his grace…turn one over to their sinful desires but He is not the author of sin.
The problem I have with saying Adam had free will is, if he did, where did his desire to sin come from?
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davidv
Guest
For me, this line highlights a key distinction that needs to be made.
Where does tempation come from? I submit that there are two sources, one external, from satan, and one internal, which is the result of original sin.
The first has existed since satan came into being. The second was the result of original sin.
Based on this, I believe that Adam and Eve did not desire sin, but chose to follow the external temptation - to accept a lie rather than the truth.
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Teflon93
Guest
That is an excellent point.
The related question is, “Why was the serpent a necessary part of the Fall?”
Adam’s sin wasn’t listening to the Serpent (that was Eve’s), but listening to Eve.
An interesting corollary is that both may have relied to much on God’s mercy rather than His justice, which of course is the root of the error Protestants of the sola fide variety find themselves in today.
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mikeledes
Guest
Where do you believe his desire to sin came from? If Adam was created in perfection and had total self-control, why would he desire to sin? And why would Satan, who was an angel created in perfection and beheld the face of God, would sin?
There can only be two options. Either Adam freely chose to sin or God forced him to sin.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
I think this is an excellent response to your question, Calvinator. God does not tempt and He is not tempted. And yet we also know that Jesus was tempted by the Devil. Jesus did not have concupiscence and being God his temptaion could not come from within. Therefore, he was externally tempted by Satan. Similarly, the first Adam was externally tempted by Satan and fell.
God Bless,
Michael
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Just so you dont go off on an irrelevant subject it needs to be laid out that Trent infallibly teaches we can do no good work, including turn to God, without His grace (infused).
First of all, that was a great description you made.I’m not even sure what I did, but you’re welcome!
I’m just trying to understand the Calvinist notion of Grace in a nutshell. I figured presenting the Catholic understanding first might open us up for a clearer definition of what we’re talking about and how we differ.
Peace and God bless!
Also, I made a thread on the two major distinctions of grace for Protestants and Catholics, Infused vs Imputed grace.
If you think about what “remove His grace” means to Calvinists it means God in fact DID actively cause Adam to sin. I made this same exact comment with the other Calvinist I was talking to, by “removing His grace” God effectively turned Adam into a rock, it could do nothing but fall downward.
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Calvinator
Guest
Go back and re-read what I posted and you will find that I agree with Trent on this issue. I posted this in response to LumenGentium who seems to disagree with Trent.
Even your church teaches that God can remove his grace from a person. God hardened pharoah’s heart did he not? The first few chapters of Romans explain how God may turn one over to their own desires. It’s not God that causes them to sin, their own nature chooses the path they follow.
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mikeledes
Guest
Removal of grace is subsequent to sin or rejection. It does not mean that someone is in a state of grace and God removes it prior to the person sinning. Also, God can withhold His grace. This is usually after refusal to acknowledge God.
Man acuqired a sin nature after the Fall. So that does not explain Adam’s sin.
God Bless,
Michael
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LumenGentium
Guest
god gave us free will and the ability to overcome our sin nature
god tells cain that he can overcome his sin nature
So the LORD said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master."
gen 4:6-7
footnote:
Demon lurking: in Hebrew, robes, literally “croucher,” is used here, like the similar Akkadian term rabisu, to designate a certain kind of evil spirit.
god tells cain that he can overcome his sin nature
So the LORD said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master."
gen 4:6-7
footnote:
Demon lurking: in Hebrew, robes, literally “croucher,” is used here, like the similar Akkadian term rabisu, to designate a certain kind of evil spirit.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Exactly! Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;
for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,
as you did that day at Massah in the desert,
where your fathers tested and tried me,
though they had seen what I did.
~Psalm 95
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Calvinator
Guest
I pretty much agree with you.
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Calvinator
Guest
I’ll have to go back and read some of the other posts but assuming Adam had free will and was in a state of grace, what would cause him to choose evil?
Normally we make choices that we are predisposed to don’t we?
BTW, I’m not trying to debate this, I’m just curious as to what others think.
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davidv
Guest
She/He were misled into believing that God had withheld something good from them.
These choices will be disordered unless the intellect is enlighted and the will is subject to the intellect.
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