How would you handle a Muslim?

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pro_universal:
MrS:

I believe you have never looked at what muslims say about the “kill the unbelievers” type verses.

There is no school of Islam that takes this verse to be anything other than a command limited to warfare, and only the most radical argue that it can be applied to undeclared wars.

I refer you to a Shafi’i (a more conservative version of traditional Islam) fatwa: livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

The claim that Islam permits the killing of civilians or anyone non-muslim is completely false.
so how does that explain the sentence of death (for insulting Islam) on the Christian convert from Islam? … does that decree only work on that side of the world?

I feel that you are correct in saying “…Islam permits…is false.”

My understanding is that “… Islam practices…” not simply permits,.
 
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MrS:
What I did say:
  1. I understand that Jesus is Lord and God. I believe in the Triune God, and the inerrancy of Scripture as properly interpreted by the only Church founded by Jesus - the Catholic Church.
Dear MrS:

You should say: It is my church’s understanding that she is founded by Jesus.

Because what your Church thinks/believes is not necessarily a fact. Otherwise Luther despite knowing your “fact” would not left RCC after opposing your Church’s views and then marrying an ex-Nun and enjoying a normal life.

Martin Luther found peace when he married an ex-nun named Katharine von Bora, whom he had helped to escape from her nunnery in an empty fish barrel and had taken refuge in Wittenberg. ]
[Martin Luther . The Characters . Luther's Wife | PBS]](http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/char_wife.html])

The essence of Jesus’ teachings is not what Saul or your Church teaches but it is the **Will of God ** (Islam) to be followed in it’s entirety otherwise Jesus’ whole mission become meaningless.

It is the Will of God (Islam) that Jesus came to restore and remind people to follow it to achieve Eternal life and not his supposed future accursed death on the cross/tree. He considered only those as his brother, sister and mother who follow the Will of God:

Now consider the following very carefully:

Matthew 12:46-50
The New American Bible

46 32 While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him.

47 **(Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”) ** 33

48 But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?"

49 **And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. **

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

It is this the will of Father (God) the actual miracle of Prophet Jesus (PBUH). And in Arabic Islam means submitting to the ** Will of God** .

No submission to the Will of God**, no Salvation, no Eternal life and no way you could become brothers, sisters or mothers of Jesus.

It is interesting to note what the footnotes of the above verses reveals:

Footnotes:

32 [46-50] See Mark 3:31-35 . Matthew has omitted Mark 3:20-21 which is taken up in Mark 3:31 (see the note on Matthew 12:22-32 , yet the point of the story is the same in both gospels: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father belongs to his true family.

And the following note reveals how game of altering the text played by the unknown copyists of the Gospels:

33 [47] This verse is omitted in some important textual witnesses, including Codex Sinaiticus (original reading) and Codex Vaticanus.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot33

You have to pay attention to the main essence of Jesus’ mission-his Message-- rather than over-emphasising his personality then over-praising him.

But first you have to get rid of Saul (Paul) completely then concentrate on words uttered by Jesus, even in your unreliable 3 synoptic gospels and John’s, where still you will find some traces of truth taught by Jesus, that eventually it will lead you to look for **‘The Spirit of Truth’ ** who was supposed to teach you ‘all the Truth’.

Do not move forward before understanding what Jesus actually uttered. Or may be you should buy a Red Letter Bible and read what is in Red (in this particular Bible all that Jesus said is highlighted in Red).

Following Jesus’ Message, in his days and prior to the advent of The Spirit of Truth was valid and that was the Will of God (Islam) then for that specific period.

But when The Spirit of Truth is come and taught you the All Truth, you now are bound to follow The Spirit of Truth, to fulfill Jesus’ instructions.​
      • -**
 
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freedomm:
Dear MrS:
You should say: It is my church’s understanding that she is founded by Jesus.

Because what your Church thinks/believes is not necessarily a fact. Otherwise Luther despite knowing your “fact” would not left RCC after opposing your Church’s views and then marrying an ex-Nun and enjoying a normal life.

Luther, despite knowing my “fact” left the church… that is why he died a heretic!!!

Many priests follow Paul’s wish to “…be as he is…” (celebate) and that is also a perfectly “normal” life for them.

Additionally, Luther took vows which he broke
He renounced the authority of the church…heretical also.

It is more than my “Church’s understanding” and it is my Faith and Belief in the Church begun by Jesus…

perhaps just as you might say that it was Muhammed’s understanding of Allah… not yours.

The difference??? Jesus is God…Muhammed is a proven false prophet…
That is what we need to discuss some more… until you see what you have gotten yourself into.
 
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freedomm:
Dear MrS:

You have to pay attention to the main essence of Jesus’ mission-his Message-- rather than over-emphasising his personality then over-praising him.

Jesus’ Message is ----- JESUS
He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

He is the Salvation of all mankind.

The Gospel of John begins…

Chapter 1

1* In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3* all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4* In him was life, * and the life was the light of men. 5* The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

As Catholics we believe (not just happen to choose to understand) that the darkness is evil, and sadly includes the evil of Islam because it is anti-God (Jesus).

The Word is Jesus not Muhammed. Thus anything Muhammed teaches against the Truth makes him a false prophet.
 
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MrS:
Luther, despite knowing my “fact” left the church… that is why he died a heretic!!!

Additionally, Luther took vows which he broke
He renounced the authority of the church…heretical also.
Dear MrS:

How do you know he died a heretic? In his eyes you are heretics. In Unitarians eyes you both are heretics. In 7th Day Adventists eyes your Pope is not even a regular common Christian but an anti-Christ and they too have a “proof”…this list of accusing each other is long until all become heretics. This is the same Holy Ghost/Spirit that they all claim to have is working behind otherwise thay all are lying and none has Holy Ghost/Spirit because they all cannot be right and wrong at the same and Holy Ghost cannot inspire such contradicting things to all.

Then if you go by what Jesus uttered (in Red, if you read a Red-letter Bible), then all existing denominations/cults/sects including yours, are INDEED HERETICS because what Jesus taught was **Will of God ** (Islam) and not what self-appointed apostle Saul/Paul taught who was an influential early persecutor of Jesus’ true followers (Muslims). And he was "kicking against the pricks" شاول شاول لماذا تضطهدني. صعب عليك ان ترفس مناخس]
( biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2026:14;&version=9; )

The moment you return back to what Jesus uttered and keep in mind atleast this:
Matthew 12:46-50
The New American Bible

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

you will see who Saul in fact was and who in fact you are actually following and on whose false teachings your Church is founded. You are basically following inventions of Saul and not the Will of God taught by Jesus.​
 
Jesus was not a muslim

Jesus did not teach Islam

Muhammed was not a Catholic

Muhammed did not teach the Will of God

Jesus is God

Muhammed is a false prophet

Jesus taught Truth… Truth Is Jesus, Who is God !!

Muhammed taught Muhammed…Muhammed is man, no more

IF Luther died unrepentant and still believing the lies and errors he professed… he died a heretic.

His eternity is in God’s hands.
 
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MrS:
As Catholics we believe (not just happen to choose to understand) that the darkness is evil, and sadly includes the evil of Islam because it is anti-God (Jesus).
Dear MrS:

Islam is anti-God, as long as you behave like those Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time and follow blindly his staunch enemy and enemy of Law, self-appointed apostle Saul (Paul). [Keep in mind all those classic seven or eight WOES used by Jesus in Matthew 23]

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm ]

The moment you ponder on words uttered by Jesus and try to understand the Will of his Father (God) who is Father of every Tom, Dick and Harry, you will see **Islam is the same Will of God and continuation and extension ** of what Jesus was emphasising in:

Matthew 12:50
The New American Bible

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

And, what is mentioned in the footnote # 32:

natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of his heavenly Father belongs to his true family.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew12.htm#foot32

 
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freedomm:
Dear MrS:
Islam is anti-God, as long as you behave like those Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time and follow blindly his staunch enemy and enemy of Law, **self-appointed apostle Saul (Paul). **[Keep in mind all those classic seven or eight WOES used by Jesus in Matthew 23]

:rotfl:your last once of credibility just vanished IMHO
 
MrS said:
:rotfl:your last once of credibility just vanished IMHO

Dear MrS:

What I meant was if you behave like those Scribes and the Pharisees of Jesus’ time and follow blindly his staunch enemy and enemy of Law, self-appointed apostle Saul (Paul)…then Islam may appear to you anti-God.

But if you listen atleast to your own master-Jesus’ words, then Islam is the ONLY OPTION and Th**e Way of Life ** (Addeen) for whole humanity because it is the same **Will of God ** and continuation and extension of what Jesus emphasised in Matthew 12:50.

 
MrS said:
:rotfl:your last once of credibility just vanished IMHO

Don’t worry about my credibility. Just keep the integrity of Jesus’ words, their meaning and implication atleast of Matthew 12:50

 
Those nice young men in the white shirts, and black ties riding bicycles do not frighten me. For a Muslim, I would grab my hauberk, don my surcoat emblazoned “argent, a cross gules” and have my non-chemical mace in hand.😃 Just kidding! No, I would treat them the same way I treat the JW’s and Mormons. I am a Catholic. I’ll listen to you if you’ll listen to me. It has been my experience that they don’t want to listen to us and will leave.
 
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brotherhrolf:
It has been my experience that they [muslims] don’t want to listen to us and will leave.
Dear brotherhrolf:

Is thats the reason Muslims are on your Catholic forum and when you (Catholics) go on Muslim forums, there too, they do listen to you and present their case to you about what they believe?

If by “listen” you meant they must accept everything that you claim/believe, then they too can reciprocrate your “listen” towards you becasue as much as you have a right to impose your “listening” on them or others they too have on you. No?
 
I would tell them that I am not interested and close the door. If they did not leave I would call the police.
 
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freedomm:
Dear brotherhrolf:
Is thats the reason Muslims are on your Catholic forum and when you (Catholics) go on Muslim forums, there too, they do listen to you and present their case to you about what they believe?

If by “listen” you meant they must accept everything that you claim/believe, then they too can reciprocrate your “listen” towards you becasue as much as you have a right to impose your “listening” on them or others they too have on you. No?
The implication of the word “listen” is “to obey”, not to hear and let it go in one ear and out the other.

Thus when Jesus, , not Muhammed, says in Scripture (all of Scripture can be reduced to one word - Jesus) “listen”
your may think “obey”.

Catholics do not impose “listening”. They offer it. We are the religion of God, and God loves it and us when we listen… and obey.
 
What I did say:
  1. I understand that Jesus is Lord and God. I believe in the Triune God, and the inerrancy of Scripture as properly interpreted by the only Church founded by Jesus - the Catholic Church.
  1. I reject Allah, as I believe that Allah is not the same as the Triune God, and is a god-as-master, not God-as-Father.
  1. I reject Muhammad as a false prophet.
I know this. What you have just stated above is the very reason you are non-Muslim…this does not make you an enemy.
I am not an innocent woman or child
I am an “unbeliever” to a Muslim
Being a non-Muslim does not mean that you are guilty of some crime deserving of punishment, at least where other humans are concerned. The consequences of my actions and your actions in terms of belief, is left to the Judge Himself.

Unless you have attacked me, or broken a treaty with me…then you are innocent

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. ( سورة الممتحنة , Al-Mumtahina, Chapter #60, Verse #8)
Is the Muslim who follows the very word of the Quran not obligated to “…kill the unbeliever where ever you find him…” ??
The context of the verse is that during wartime. If you led a country and you declared war on the country that I led (or i declared war on you) then i can fight you, and kill you wherever I find you…provided that you are fighting in the war and not an innocent bystander.
If that is the case, we remain in public view on the front porch.
lol. Ok.
 
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MrS:
The implication of the word “listen” is “to obey”, not to hear and let it go in one ear and out the other.

Thus when Jesus, , not Muhammed, says in Scripture (all of Scripture can be reduced to one word - Jesus) “listen”
your may think “obey”.

Catholics do not impose “listening”. They offer it. We are the religion of God, and God loves it and us when we listen… and obey.
What you said remind me of this verse
Nor be like those who say, “We hear,” but listen not:
( Quran 8:21).
 
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pro_universal:
Muhammad did not order them killed. He referred their case to Saed Ibn Muadh, and they agreed to abide by his ruling…which was to kill the men and take the women and children.

The reason they were subject to judgment is that they had violated a peace treaty for the second time by supporting attacks on the muslims.

The tribe was essentially at that time on trial, and it agreed to the judge that Muhammad appointed. They probably didn’t expect him to be that harsh, but he was, and that was the end of the story, much like the result of a criminal trial.
there arent any Muslim missionaries…so that situation is almost unimaginable…you cant tell someonet o convert, nor force them…only thing in Islam ist hat you ahve to tell others about the true nature of Islam.

and about teh Jewish tribe… they were judgeda ccording to the Torah… Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) appointed one of their friend (forgot his name… i think pro_universal is right with the name)…and he said that he will judge thema ccording to the Torah…and according to the Torah they were supposed to be killed…the entire tribe I believe but only the adults were killed… even I knew this before.
 
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estesbob:
I recently had a Muslim client take me to lunch and try to convert me.
You mean the Muslim tried to change you? I am curious to know whether he tried to change you politically or religiously? I imagine its like a Republican Catholic going to a Democrat Catholic and trying to convert him to the Republican Party.

You may or may not be aware that evangelism is not necessarily inter-faith but intra-faith. Conservative Catholics do seek to convert Liberal Catholics.
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estesbob:
I treat them with respect and give them a very firm “you are wasting your time”.
Why did you not try to convert him to Trinitarian Islam? Shock him by informing him that he is not a true Muslim and he only can be a true Muslim if he believes in Trinity by confessing the Nicene Creed. This is a clear teaching of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church that Christians and Muslims worship one, mercify God. This is only true if Muslims worship Trinity. If they do not, they are not Muslims.
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estesbob:
I have many Muslim clients, and many Muslim friends-I cant imagine why anyone would worry about someone just becuase they are Muslim.
You have not told us who these Muslims are. Are they Tauhidian Muslims, Trinitarian Muslims or pagan Muslims? If you think this is ridiculous, think of the Saducee Jews, Pharisee Jews and Trinitarian Jews.
 
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freedomm:
Do not move forward before understanding what Jesus actually uttered. Or may be you should buy a Red Letter Bible and read what is in Red (in this particular Bible all that Jesus said is highlighted in Red).
I doubt you even know what a “Red Letter Bible” is! Those red letters are the words of the living God. Both Old Testament and New Testament contain red letters, which refer to Lord Jesus speaking.

Consider the passage of burning bush in Old Testament where Lord Jesus spoke to Moses. The burning bush symbolises Ever-Virgin Mary who did not lose her virginity when she gave birth to God who spoke to the Law promising to free those under the Law from slavery.
 
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Muslim:
there arent any Muslim missionaries…so that situation is almost unimaginable…you cant tell someonet o convert, nor force them…only thing in Islam ist hat you ahve to tell others about the true nature of Islam.
I agree with you that I cannot tell someone to convert. They simply will not change without reason to do so. That is why I need to weaken my enemies’ defenses first. A good way is when a Muslim missionary approaches me, I announce myself as Muslim and point to them his Islam (ie. Tawhidian Islam) is false Islam and giving him reasons why this is so. I will teach him that the correct Islam is Trinitarian Islam and our Shahada is said by confessing the Nicene Creed.
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Muslim:
and about the Jewish tribe… they were judgeda ccording to the Torah… Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) appointed one of their friend (forgot his name… i think pro_universal is right with the name)…and he said that he will judge thema ccording to the Torah…and according to the Torah they were supposed to be killed…the entire tribe I believe but only the adults were killed… even I knew this before.
Can you quote the Torah verses Muhammad uses to justify killing the entire Jewish tribe?

How can Muhammad judge according to Torah, when he was not even a Jew? Also, what Torah did Muhammad use, an Arabic translation or the Hebrew original? How did he know he was interpreting Torah correctly? You must keep in mind since the Jews did not accept him as a prophet, so he remains a false prophet. Therefore, Muhammad had no right to give interpretation on Torah.

Also, why are there are no more Jews in Saudi Arabia today? Who gave that false prophet Muhammad the authority to expul the Jews from their homes?
 
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