How would your spritual life react to such a new parish in your neighborhood?

[jcrichton]

I suspect in all actuality you’re having problems with the concept of something like a pre-Mass “coffee and conversation” period simply because it’s foreign to you and thus, you’re trying to find fault with it. That’s quite natural. In reality, it would give people someplace to visit before Mass, rather than doing so inside of church where it can be both distracting and rude.

Hi, Duesenberg!

You are correct in that the concept of pre-Mass coffee is foreign; yet, my concern is not with socializing but with the format that lends to abuse. In some parishes that I have visited there were issues with tardiness, drive-through, and conversations… in one parish it got so bad that some would show up for Mass while the Eucharist was being distributed… at some parishes people trek in as though they are going clubbing, at others they compete with the Celebrant–sometimes being louder than the sound coming from the speakers… at another people were “holding” seats for their family and friends… at another they would strike up conversations even while on walking to the Altar to Receive the Eucharist…

I am sure that all these behaviors did not began abruptly; rather, they insinuated themselves into the culture of those parishes…

Given such bad track record, I don’t think that pre-Mass coffee is a good idea.

I don’t hate coffee, so don’t think I’m against socializing; just do it after Mass!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Pug!

…unless you put up a sing: “free beer” and all the chips you can eat!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Duesenberg!

This then is doable in your parish–only leave the coffee out so that you do not start a different environment–coffee keg junkies.

Maran atha!

Angel

(Tangent: I’ve just notice an emoji appear–when I try to use the list it takes forever to load and I get tire of searching for a particular one; does anyone have a list of symbols for them so I could just type them instead of searching the queue?)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

You little priest hat trick is rather obnoxious.

You can trust that this is a medium-sized church, celebrating its centennial, in fact. The man in question has COPD and oxygen. It doesn’t matter where he sits, especially since you have to go to the front for communion. Smoke goes everywhere. It permeates the church…and since the vestibule is in front, the priest travels to the back with incense for the procession.

Maybe your plan works in a magical land where you have people who are faking, but it doesn’t work in reality for those of us who are actually seriously affected. Again, my allergy is so severe even when it’s not used–because it has so permeated the church–I would end up very sick after mass.

This man happily accepts rides to Mass where they aren’t so insence happy. However, I have children and a husband and only a small sedan so it is not possible for me to help him. Most weeks, he simply doesn’t attend.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Casilda!

I think that the problem remains with the individual Catholic. I’ve known Catholics that have left the Church; when they did considered themselves Catholics they would not engage past Sunday’s Mass and a few personal/family engagements (Baptism, 1st Communion…); talking to them about volunteering? …well a polite smile and a condescending “yeah.” Forget Bible study!

Yet, when they join a non-Catholic regime they would forcelenteer into anything; including the purchasing of ultra expensive Bibles, funding “missionary works,” and attending several days per week (some days twice) and running soup kitchens or doing all sorts of labor (some what akin to the scientology thing).

In the Catholic experience it would hurt them to think past the Homily and the few coins dropped in the basket.

The culture has to change. The Laity must be made aware that the Church experience is not about showing up for about an hour to Mass; that our spirituality and our responsibility with Jesus demands that we engage God with a generous and kind heart; that we extend ourselves past our comfort level and that we get to know Christ Jesus though our local parish and community.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Duesenberg!

I can see both points (I’m super allergic to everything); but what you’ve stated is also true. Some people just want to have an excuse; they consider incense as old fashion and dated… it’s like some of those “new age” parishes that remove Christ on the Cross because, ‘hey, He Resurrected!’ They miss the whole Salvation experience!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Duesenberg]

…You are correct in that the concept of pre-Mass coffee is foreign; yet, my concern is not with socializing but with the format that lends to abuse…

I really don’t think that would be the case. A lot depends on communication and setting expectations. I think the potential good far outweighs the bad.

Clearly communicating and setting expectations impacts a great many things at Mass like arriving on time, not talking inside of church, etc.

 

[Duesenberg]

You little priest hat trick is rather obnoxious.

He proved a point without saying a single word. Hardly “obnoxious.” Embarrassing to the make believe coughers though.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

You little priest hat trick is rather obnoxious.

He proved a point without saying a single word. Hardly “obnoxious.” Embarrassing to the make believe coughers though.

Just because you have people faking doesn’t mean that the issue is less real for those of us who truly suffer. Fakers can go pound sand. It’s the same with the people who run around with yippy dogs and say they are “Service dogs” just because they don’t want to leave them home. Your priest made a point to people who weren’t really allergic because they were attending a mass with incense. I would not risk my life to do so in the first place.

 

[Duesenberg]

Just because you have people faking doesn’t mean that the issue is less real for those of us who truly suffer. Fakers can go pound sand. It’s the same with the people who run around with yippy dogs and say they are “Service dogs” just because they don’t want to leave them home. Your priest made a point to people who weren’t really allergic because they were attending a mass with incense. I would not risk my life to do so in the first place.

I’m simply not buying the notion that someone cannot attend Mass because incense is used. Two people at my Eastern Catholic parish have emphysema. You can hear them cough. You can sometimes smell their inhalers. But they endure without complaint even though the church is tiny and the amount of incense used is huge. Another woman in the same parish used to watch the Divine Liturgy through a window. I told a 3M rep about that and asked if there were any unobtrusive masks for anything akin to pipe/cigar smoke? He said sure and he got me some samples.

I gave them to her husband and she wore them for a few Masses without distress or calling attention to herself. They worked. She went back to her window though because she missed the attention.

If people really want to attend Mass and are willing to be flexible and creative, they’ll be able to do so. It’s usually those that want to control the actions of the celebration of the Mass at their parishes that run into trouble.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Just because you have people faking doesn’t mean that the issue is less real for those of us who truly suffer. Fakers can go pound sand. It’s the same with the people who run around with yippy dogs and say they are “Service dogs” just because they don’t want to leave them home. Your priest made a point to people who weren’t really allergic because they were attending a mass with incense. I would not risk my life to do so in the first place.

I’m simply not buying the notion that someone cannot attend Mass because incense is used. Two people at my Eastern Catholic parish have emphysema. You can hear them cough. You can sometimes smell their inhalers. But they endure without complaint even though the church is tiny and the amount of incense used is huge. Another woman in the same parish used to watch the Divine Liturgy through a window. I told a 3M rep about that and asked if there were any unobtrusive masks for anything akin to pipe/cigar smoke? He said sure and he got me some samples.

I gave them to her husband and she wore them for a few Masses without distress or calling attention to herself. They worked. She went back to her window though because she missed the attention.

If people really want to attend Mass and are willing to be flexible and creative, they’ll be able to do so. It’s usually those that want to control the actions of the celebration of the Mass at their parishes that run into trouble.

Oh, I’m so very sorry you have the idea that my and other people’s ailments are a matter of speculation for you.

It is not. Filters are not practical because incense gets everywhere. I don’t need to be told about it and a mask…part of the issue is the penetrating “virtue” of incense…I would still need to wash everything that came into contact with the air at Mass. You are not a medical doctor, and you are not familiar with my medical history. You are not dealing with life and death. You do not seem to comprehend the seriousness.
It’s not an inconvenience. I cannot just ‘sit by a window’ The traces of this “finest hypoallergenic incense money can buy”" are too much for me. And it’s not pseudo science, because when they go through and do HVAC work, I didn’t get sick…and no one ever informed of that work. It wasn’t until we talked to the priest and figured out that they were having HVAC work done during the week (we attend Saturday Mass) that we discovered why I could tolerate the church sometimes and others not.

Nor are you familiar with this gentleman. He’s on oxygen…a filter mask would squish his nasal tube or make an imperfect seal–negating the whole idea.

I am not “controlling the actions of the church”. I switched parishes, as have many in my place. I do think it’s very sad that this parish continues to do so at the cost of its parishioners.

 

[Duesenberg]

I am not “controlling the actions of the church”. I switched parishes, as have many in my place. I do think it’s very sad that this parish continues to do so at the cost of its parishioners.

So just get rid of the ancient, venerable and beloved use of incense at Mass? Just like that? I think not. At least not for many parishes.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

I am not “controlling the actions of the church”. I switched parishes, as have many in my place. I do think it’s very sad that this parish continues to do so at the cost of its parishioners.

So just get rid of the ancient, venerable and beloved use of incense at Mass? Just like that? I think not. At least not for many parishes.

Again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. I think it is rather inconsiderate for the priest not to shepherd his flock and meet their needs. Eventually, that church will be empty. Too bad.

 

[Duesenberg]

This reminds me of a HUGE blow-up at my parish several years ago. Someone entering the Church through RCIA could not consume wheat. The priest said no problem – a separate chalice would be prepared for her and she should receive Holy Communion via the Precious Blood. Not good enough! She demanded to receive a host made from rice (low gluten hosts did not exist at the time) along with the Precious Blood so as not to feel excluded.

The priest explained that was impossible and he explained why it was impossible. The offer to prepare a chalice for her remained, but she left to become a Lutheran instead.

 

[Duesenberg]

Again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. I think it is rather inconsiderate for the priest not to shepherd his flock and meet their needs. Eventually, that church will be empty. Too bad.

Have you ever considered that for hundreds, using incense might be doing just that, meeting their needs?

 

[1neophyte]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Again, you’re entitled to your own opinion. I think it is rather inconsiderate for the priest not to shepherd his flock and meet their needs. Eventually, that church will be empty. Too bad.

Have you ever considered that for hundreds, using incense might be doing just that, meeting their needs?

Have you considered that for thousands, using incense is a nuisance?

 

[Duesenberg]

Have you considered that for thousands, using incense is a nuisance?

Have you considered that for many millions over two thousand years, the use of incense is a beloved thing?

 

[1neophyte]

Oh you got me there. I guess we’ll all just have to choke. As long as you’re taken care of, everything is fine.

Is it your philosophical position that if a thing is “beloved” by a lot of people, it logically follows that the thing is automatically good?

 

[Duesenberg]

Oh you got me there. I guess we’ll all just have to choke. As long as you’re taken care of, everything is fine.

Is it your philosophical position that if a thing is “beloved” by a lot of people, it logically follows that the thing is automatically good?

Sarcasm, aye?

I don’t think incense should be eliminated because it bothers some people. Its use in the Bible goes back thousands of years. There is value to upholding its use which some are blind to because they are so focused in getting their way.

Consider taking steps to make yourself more comfortable around the use of incense. Change Masses. Buy and use a face mask. Attend a workshop to build mental toughness. Pray for greater resistance to incense. Take a Benedryl before Mass. Buy your parish some hypoallergenic incense, etc.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You are hardly demonstrating Christian Charity ATM. Asthma is another very real issue. Mental toughness won’t stop the incense bringing on potentially fatal asthma attacks.