Hundreds gather in Arizona for armed anti-Muslim protest

[Path_Finder]

So ISIS has killed alot more Muslims than non-Muslims. Don’t know what that has to do with anything. Imagine telling the American people in the days after 9-11, “Al-Qaeda has killed more Muslims than non-Muslims”.

No, it may not have to do with this thread topic directly, but did have to deal with points made in this thread, tangents of which there are many.

 

[Path_Finder]

Phoenix mosque is long-standing FBI target
usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/07/phoenix-mosque-terror-probes/70965798/

 

[Path_Finder]

I won’t make the argument that these are nice people.
They are sending out a clear message that they are not nice people, and they have guns.

As long as I can remember there have been people who have been as anti-Catholic and/or anti-Christian as these people in their t-shirts are anti-Islamic.

So what? We live in a free country. People do not have to be nice to me, nor I to them.

If there was no contest in Garland that was shot at by those who attended this place of worship, there would not have been a protest. I’m not sure if one can say that the organizer does not like Muslims, he did not like such behavior.

 

[Darryl1958]

If there was no contest in Garland that was shot at by those who attended this place of worship, there would not have been a protest. I’m not sure if one can say that the organizer does not like Muslims, he did not like such behavior.

It cannot be said of the organizers that they are anti-Islamic. That goes beyond the evidence of the discussion so far.
There ought to be no doubt however that anyone who wears the t-shirts discussed here ’ Islam’, are as anti-Islamic as Christopher Hitchens was anti-Christian.

And moreover, this is a fully American, fully legitimate response to things that people do not like. People can like what they want in America, and express their dislike of whatever they want to in America, and if anyone wants to take it further than a protests and coutner-protests, Americans have guns to back themselves up.

 

[Inisfallen]

And moreover, this is a fully American, fully legitimate response to things that people do not like. People can like what they want in America, and express their dislike of whatever they want to in America, and if anyone wants to take it further than a protests and coutner-protests, Americans have guns to back themselves up.

Yeah, never mind that swords and ploughshares nonsense, we’re Americans! We have guns. And we’re not giving them up.

I loath mobs. I’m scared of mobs with guns.

I really am surprised (and disappointed) to see so many good Catholics here twist themselves into pretzels defending this bunch of thugs.

 

[Path_Finder]

It cannot be said of the organizers that they are anti-Islamic. That goes beyond the evidence of the discussion so far.
There ought to be no doubt however that anyone who wears the t-shirts discussed here ’ Islam’, are as anti-Islamic as Christopher Hitchens was anti-Christian.

Should one put so much emphasis on a t-shirt?? There are a number of Big Lebowski t-shirts, shirts inspired by the movie.

myiconart.com/12376-thickbox/big-lebowski-t-shirt-mark-it-zero.jpg

For everyone, here is their original facebook post, they have since taken the facebook page down.

ROUND 2!!!!!!! This will be a PEACEFUL protest in front of the Islamic Community Center in Phoenix AZ. This is in response to the recent attack in Texas where 2 armed terrorist, with ties to ISIS, attempted Jihad. Everyone is encouraged to bring American Flags and any message that you would like to send to the known acquaintances of the 2 gunmen.

This Islamic Community Center is a known place that the 2 terrorist frequented. People are also encouraged to utilize there second amendment right at this event just in case our first amendment comes under the much anticipated attack.

1. Date will be Friday May 29th @ 6:15pm. This is when they normally host a large prayer.

2. Bikers will meet at the Event!

3. There will be a Muhammad Cartoon Contest and the winner will be announced at the Rally.

And then, the organizer said this, we can not know if it is true or not.

“I received a lot of threats from Muslims. Someone told me to expect a drive-by if I stayed out there,” he says. “But people have the right to slander Islam if they want to…I’m a patriot and this is about the Constitution.”

phoenixnewtimes.com/news/anti-islam-free-speech-rally-to-be-held-at-islamic-community-center-this-friday-7363955

And moreover, this is a fully American, fully legitimate response to things that people do not like. People can like what they want in America, and express their dislike of whatever they want to in America, and if anyone wants to take it further than a protests and coutner-protests, Americans have guns to back themselves up.

 

[Path_Finder]

Yeah, never mind that swords and ploughshares nonsense, we’re Americans! We have guns. And we’re not giving them up.

I loath mobs. I’m scared of mobs with guns.

So you are against protesters? Or protesters that aren’t the right kind?? So then they are a mob? So much for freedom of speech.

I really am surprised (and disappointed) to see so many good Catholics here twist themselves into pretzels defending this bunch of thugs.

It’s legal in the state?? As legal as walking down the streets.

I’m surprised and disappointed to see good Catholics call law abiding citizens names. If one has a point, then they should engage in civil debate. Gratuitous name calling seems un-Christian and I would surmise those name-calling often don’t address the facts of the situations.

Parents have every right to be concerned if a local place has terrorists in their hometown. And as shown, the place was watched by the FBI for many years.

 

[Path_Finder]

I’d almost think the t-shirt in question could violate public decency standards, really.

Wouldn’t there be laws against shirts with all kinds of things on it actually but a misdemeanor all the same and then we get into the realm of what is acceptable and who is to judge.

Generally t-shirts with 4 letter words seem to be criminal as being a very petty misdemeanor.

 

[J_Peterson]

So you are against protesters? Or protesters that aren’t the right kind?? So then they are a mob? So much for freedom of speech.

It’s legal in the state?? As legal as walking down the streets.

I’m surprised and disappointed to see good Catholics call law abiding citizens names. If one has a point, then they should engage in civil debate. Gratuitous name calling seems un-Christian and I would surmise those name-calling often don’t address the facts of the situations.

Parents have every right to be concerned if a local place has terrorists in their hometown. And as shown, the place was watched by the FBI for many years.

If they are protesters, what are they protesting and what do they hope to change by protesting?

 

[Inisfallen]

So you are against protesters? Or protesters that aren’t the right kind?? So then they are a mob? So much for freedom of speech.

See, this is what I mean about twisting stuff. Where have I said that I’m against freedom of speech? I absolutely acknowledge that these “protesters” have the legal right to assemble and make their views known.

But having the right to free speech does not immunize one from criticism of the content of that speech.

It’s legal in the state?? As legal as walking down the streets.

I’m well aware that, in some states, openly carrying guns is legal. So what? It would be perfectly legal in at least one county in Nevada for me to visit a prostitute. It would be perfectly legal in my state, and in many others, for me to marry another man. Legal isn’t the same as right, and you know that.

I’m surprised and disappointed to see good Catholics call law abiding citizens names. If one has a point, then they should engage in civil debate. Gratuitous name calling seems un-Christian and I would surmise those name-calling often don’t address the facts of the situations.

There’s nothing gratuitous in calling a mob a mob. And I am addressing the facts of the situation, which are that an armed mob gathered outside a place of worship to taunt those in that place.

Parents have every right to be concerned if a local place has terrorists in their hometown. And as shown, the place was watched by the FBI for many years.

Absolutely. My objection is to the way in which that legitimate concern was expressed.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I’m not sure I understand your point.

You seem to be making a couple of arguments here. One appears to be that killing people, non-combatants, bystanders, children, is perfectly morally acceptable if one’s cause is just. This is pretty much the argument universally made by terrorists. The Provisional IRA is in line here with Boko Haram and ISIS and Al Qaeda and, oh, the Bader-Meinhoff Gang and the Symbionese Liberation Army and any other politically-motivated gang of murderers you can think of.

The other seems to be that because (in your opinion) the United States engages in bad behavior on a global level, whatever the IRA (or, by extension, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab and the rest) do is OK. That argument doesn’t even begin to make sense.

Nailed it. Thank you. This irony (from deep in the sacred, beyond sacred even, grounds where Irish republicanism dwelleth) needs to be exposed. I myself couldn’t even see it for years. Talk about being blinded by religion. The most fervent Christian fails in comparison, and for good reason. I am not saying Irish nationalism is an unjust cause - definitely not - but the failure of its republican proponents to EVER admit any fault, any failing, any wrongdoing, is nothing more than fanaticism - at its bloodiest and most self-deluding. Again, I believed in it - from an armchair.

 

[Path_Finder]

Considering that 2 of these suspects from that place did something which shows a connection to ISIS, who have to be pretty evil in most peoples minds and that there according to organizers, threats were made against them, if someone is calling people thugs, I would truly question which side is being called this and should.

If you had some Church known to have been attended by extremists, why not? Same church on the FBI watch list?

 

[TaurusRex]

washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/05/30/hundreds-gather-in-arizona-for-armed-anti-muslim-protest/?tid=pm_national_pop_b

PHOENIX —About 250 mostly armed anti-Muslim demonstrators — many wearing T-shirts bearing a profanity-laced message denouncing Islam — faced-off against a crowd of roughly the same size defending the faith in front of a Phoenix mosque Friday night.

Demonstrators yelled and taunted one another across a line of police separating the two sides but violence did not break out.

Jon Ritzheimer, the organizer of the protest, called it a patriotic sign of resistance against what he deemed the tyranny of Islam in America.

“I would love to see more of these events pop up in other states,” Ritzheimer said. “I want fellow patriots standing right here next to me. This isn’t about me. Everybody’s been thinking it, I’m just saying it.”

Usama Shami, president of the Islamic center, said he was not surprised by the event.

The article continues online.

Admittedly, I’ve only read a few posts of this thread, but I suspect there is basically a side which considers it morally wrong to conduct an armed protest outside of a house of worship and a side which considers some houses of worship more as meeting houses used as induction centers.

My take on this protest is that in some areas of our country whether we Catholics realize it or not, life is much more difficult than in others tending to breed men made of sterner stuff …
Thank you Jesus for our New Jersey paradise relative to states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Louisiana floods, tornadoes and hostile immigrants …
All we get is an occasional Anthrax shipment.

Anyway, there’s 1-1/2 billion people on our earth with a very large percentage of them doing some really crazy things like even mass beheadings due to some holier than thou beliefs
And some of these men made of sterner stuff are getting overly anxious about the idea many more of us are pondering which is how much longer will it be before heads start to roll in our good old USA;

So in plain English, these men made of sterner stuff are literally trying to force the issue instead of waiting while some women have eight babies at the time.

rex

 

[Paddy1989]

I’m not sure I understand your point.

You seem to be making a couple of arguments here. One appears to be that killing people, non-combatants, bystanders, children, is perfectly morally acceptable if one’s cause is just. This is pretty much the argument universally made by terrorists. The Provisional IRA is in line here with Boko Haram and ISIS and Al Qaeda and, oh, the Bader-Meinhoff Gang and the Symbionese Liberation Army and any other politically-motivated gang of murderers you can think of.

The other seems to be that because (in your opinion) the United States engages in bad behavior on a global level, whatever the IRA (or, by extension, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab and the rest) do is OK. That argument doesn’t even begin to make sense.

You have completely missed the point then and not sure how to simplify it more for you. Never is it morally ok to kill civilians however both sides done this, that of course doesn’t make it right but it still happened. Ill give you a brief history lesson on Ireland as you just insulted the entire Irish nation wity your ignorance.The IRA was legitimised by the people of Ireland in 1919 when the people democratically voted in favour of Irish independence. Britain rejected this and so the Irish under its army IRA (IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY) engaged in guerilla warfare and brought the empire to its knees in Ireland forcing it to compromise.

The British would only hand over 26 counties in Ireland and armed tens of thousands of loyalists in the North to cement their control their. As time progressed in the North Republicans continued to pursue their objective. Discrimination against Catholic continued by loyalists and Britain’s police force in the North. When the civil rights movement was brought down mainly after bloody Sunday it became apparent that peaceful means were no longer possible and thus many joined the IRA in the tens of thousands. The IRA engaged in gun battles and attacks on British forced to continue the full removal of British forces In Ireland. As for attacks on civilians, these were attacks condoned by individual unit’s and Republicans as a whole are ashamed of them, they should never have happened. These attacks however do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy, it’s political struggel amy more than the British army attacks on civilians takes away it’s legitimacy and defines it as a terrorist group

As for Boko Haram etc, you comparing them to the IRA just shows how anti Irish you are mate

 

[FollowChrist34]

You have completely missed the point then and not sure how to simplify it more for you. Never is it morally ok to kill civilians however both sides done this, that of course doesn’t make it right but it still happened. Ill give you a brief history lesson on Ireland as you just insulted the entire Irish nation wity your ignorance.The IRA was legitimised by the people of Ireland in 1919 when the people democratically voted in favour of Irish independence. Britain rejected this and so the Irish under its army IRA (IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY) engaged in guerilla warfare and brought the empire to its knees in Ireland forcing it to compromise.

The British would only hand over 26 counties in Ireland and armed tens of thousands of loyalists in the North to cement their control their. As time progressed in the North Republicans continued to pursue their objective. Discrimination against Catholic continued by loyalists and Britain’s police force in the North. When the civil rights movement was brought down mainly after bloody Sunday it became apparent that peaceful means were no longer possible and thus many joined the IRA in the tens of thousands. The IRA engaged in gun battles and attacks on British forced to continue the full removal of British forces In Ireland. As for attacks on civilians, these were attacks condoned by individual unit’s and Republicans as a whole are ashamed of them, they should never have happened. These attacks however do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy, it’s political struggel amy more than the British army attacks on civilians takes away it’s legitimacy and defines it as a terrorist group

As for Boko Haram etc, you comparing them to the IRA just shows how anti Irish you are mate

Well that was a nice wee bit of macho rambling. .

 

[Inisfallen]

You have completely missed the point then and not sure how to simplify it more for you. Never is it morally ok to kill civilians however both sides done this, that of course doesn’t make it right but it still happened. Ill give you a brief history lesson on Ireland as you just insulted the entire Irish nation wity your ignorance.The IRA was legitimised by the people of Ireland in 1919 when the people democratically voted in favour of Irish independence. Britain rejected this and so the Irish under its army IRA (IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY) engaged in guerilla warfare and brought the empire to its knees in Ireland forcing it to compromise.

The British would only hand over 26 counties in Ireland and armed tens of thousands of loyalists in the North to cement their control their. As time progressed in the North Republicans continued to pursue their objective. Discrimination against Catholic continued by loyalists and Britain’s police force in the North. When the civil rights movement was brought down mainly after bloody Sunday it became apparent that peaceful means were no longer possible and thus many joined the IRA in the tens of thousands. The IRA engaged in gun battles and attacks on British forced to continue the full removal of British forces In Ireland. As for attacks on civilians, these were attacks condoned by individual unit’s and Republicans as a whole are ashamed of them, they should never have happened. These attacks however do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy, it’s political struggel amy more than the British army attacks on civilians takes away it’s legitimacy and defines it as a terrorist group

As for Boko Haram etc, you comparing them to the IRA just shows how anti Irish you are mate

Anti-Irish? Hardly. Pointing out (accurately) that the Provisional IRA has been, to say the very least, careless about civilian deaths, and has in a number of cases actually targeted civilians (as in the Harrod’s bombing), does not make me anti-Irish.

As to your claim that attacks on civilians “do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy,” I would argue that targeting civilians does indeed call into question (at the very least) the legitimacy of the group engaged in such attacks (although perhaps not of the cause itself).

 

[Paddy1989]

Anti-Irish? Hardly. Pointing out (accurately) that the Provisional IRA has been, to say the very least, careless about civilian deaths, and has in a number of cases actually targeted civilians (as in the Harrod’s bombing), does not make me anti-Irish.

As to your claim that attacks on civilians “do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy,” I would argue that targeting civilians does indeed call into question (at the very least) the legitimacy of the group engaged in such attacks (although perhaps not of the cause itself).

The targeting of civilians was done by both sides and is immoral however what you fail to understand that the PIRA war lasted 30 years mostly consisting on legitimate attacks on British forces. Thode involved with the IRA are remorseful and regret the few attacks on cibilians. Using your logic the US and other armies throughout the world should be labeled as terrorist groups for their actions

 

[Paddy1989]

Anti-Irish? Hardly. Pointing out (accurately) that the Provisional IRA has been, to say the very least, careless about civilian deaths, and has in a number of cases actually targeted civilians (as in the Harrod’s bombing), does not make me anti-Irish.

As to your claim that attacks on civilians “do not dictate and define it’s legitimacy,” I would argue that targeting civilians does indeed call into question (at the very least) the legitimacy of the group engaged in such attacks (although perhaps not of the cause itself).

Sorry for my poor grammar I’m typing on a smart phone with quite large thumbs and a poor spellchecker lol. What would you say about the US in Vietnam for example where it killed civilians and raped a large number of women and even children, where it carelessly dropped napalm (a weapon that was banned) throughout populated areas in Vietnam. Does this make the US army a murdering terrorist group like Boko Haram?

 

[Darryl1958]

Yeah, never mind that swords and ploughshares nonsense, we’re Americans! We have guns. And we’re not giving them up.

I loath mobs. I’m scared of mobs with guns.

I really am surprised (and disappointed) to see so many good Catholics here twist themselves into pretzels defending this bunch of thugs.

What this mob (which never broke a window or overturned a trash can) loathes, is having people shooting at them and intimidating them for not thinking the right way.

They don want to be liked by these people. They are also indifferent to the sanctimonious diatribes of the meek and the cowardly, who are too busy bending over backwards to appease the Islamists that they don’t even care what is happening to their freedoms in the meantime.

 

[estesbob]

What this mob (which never broke a window or overturned a trash can) loathes, is having people shooting at them and intimidating them for not thinking the right way.

They don want to be liked by these people. They are also indifferent to the sanctimonious diatribes of the meek and the cowardly, who are too busy bending over backwards to appease the Islamists that they don’t even care what is happening to their freedoms in the meantime.

Brave patriots defending freedom showing up armed to disrupt a Church service .