Hundreds of German choir boys abused over six decades

[Bonnie]

I… since most of the public focus seems to be disproportionately on the Church.

Because the Church is supposed to be holy. If even the priests can’t live by the moral code of the Church, how can anyone else, without the vocation & education, be expected to?

 

[CB_Catholic]

ok so does that mean the church was not scrutinizing their priests as strongly as they should have been?

Why was this and why was the outcome of this not recognised and repulsed from the church more quickly? Accepting the argument about the devil, the church is 2000 years old, we are supposed to reflect the goodness of 'God and recognise evil for what it is.

(I appreciate your answers and God bless).

Evil was with mankind since the Fall. How could Adam and Eve, who walked with God, enjoyed His provisions in the Garden, had an intimate relationship with Him, disobey Him and affect the entire human race? How could the man after God’s own heart, King David become an adulterer and a murderer? He knew the Law, was trained in it, knew right from wrong, yet look what he did. And Judas Iscariot lived with, walked with, ate with, slept with, and learned from God Himself, yet he managed to betray Him. He surely could have been more closely scrutinized by the Apostles. Even Peter, the Rock, denied Jesus 3 times–how could this happen?

How do we account for people who have loving families, bring them up in a good moral environment, even a good Christian one, are taught right from wrong and then end up being rapists, murderers, etc? Every one of us has the potential to do great evil. We have free will.

I think one thing must be recognized, though. Sexual abuse of minors did not begin with the Church in the 20th century. We forget how raunchy some civilizations were. Even highly enlightened ones. The Romans were quite perverted in this area, and it was socially acceptable. I won’t go into details. The Church in Medieval times was full of corruption, as it was in later times. The same sins over and over again. But you are right, you think we should know better by now. But we don’t.

 

[pianistclare]

Transparency is a must for any organization. Even more so the church.
I don’t know why we are so slow to learn this?

 

[Rosebud77]

Because the Church is supposed to be holy. If even the priests can’t live by the moral code of the Church, how can anyone else, without the vocation & education, be expected to?

Exactly. Thank you

 

[Markie_Boy]

Because the Church is supposed to be holy. If even the priests can’t live by the moral code of the Church, how can anyone else, without the vocation & education, be expected to?

Yes - X2

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Transparency is a must for any organization. Even more so the church.
I don’t know why we are so slow to learn this?

And what did Pope Benedict do when/if his brother admitted culpability? Was he transparent? I don’t know the answer to this, so the question is not rhetorical.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Abuse is hardly limited to Catholic institutions. Britain’s public schools were hotbeds of abuse of all kinds, and no one batted an eyelash over it.

Abuse has gone on for a good long time in a good many places, not just Catholic ones.

What happened in the past cannot be changed. That the Church has taken and continues to take steps to stamp out this kind of abuse, is what matters now.

No. It does a disservice to point out other abuse. And i wouldn’t argue the Church has done things to fix it. In my diocese we have a scandal in court right now. Then you have a high ranking cardinal summoned from his post to go back to his country to face charges. And also another Vatican agency engulfed in an orgy scandal.
Some of us still see very much of a problem and are affected by it. But don’t worry, parent volunteers for youth programs have to take safe environment training.

Meanwhile every time these stories come out our only response is to say others have done it too and we don’t do that anymore!?

 

[Markie_Boy]

No. It does a disservice to point out other abuse. And i wouldn’t argue the Church has done things to fix it. In my diocese we have a scandal in court right now. Then you have a high ranking cardinal summoned from his post to go back to his country to face charges. And also another Vatican agency engulfed in an orgy scandal.
Some of us still see very much of a problem and are affected by it. But don’t worry, parent volunteers for youth programs have to take safe environment training.

Meanwhile every time these stories come out our only response is to say others have done it too and we don’t do that anymore!?

Yes - anyone who is not flat out angry at the offenders needs a reality check.

And the “well they do it too” perspective is not befitting of a Christian.

The offenders should be handed over to the court system like any other criminal, not protected by the Church.

 

[Della]

ok so does that mean the church was not scrutinizing their priests as strongly as they should have been?

In some places, I have no doubt. It happens. We have to guard against it happening again.

Why was this and why was the outcome of this not recognised and repulsed from the church more quickly? Accepting the argument about the devil, the church is 2000 years old, we are supposed to reflect the goodness of 'God and recognise evil for what it is.

(I appreciate your answers and God bless).

Because it wasn’t looked upon as a crime but as a sin that could be overcome. People didn’t know that pedophiles are deeply psychologically damaged people. Abuse of children was as widespread in the general population then as now, but no one was willing to do anything about it. Indeed, bishops sent pedophile priests to psychiatrists for “treatment”, which they got, but it was ineffective in most cases. Still, they were sent back to the ministries having been “cured” by the treatment they got. They weren’t cured.

Also, any group has the tendency to protect their own, be it priests or doctors or police or others who deal with the public. It’s not as simple as no one did anything about it when they knew they should. If it had been that simple, the level of abuse wouldn’t have been as high. Again, this is a human failing, a sin, and a crime (when acted upon). It has to be treated as such, with protection of victims in mind far more than that of the abusers.

 

[Della]

Yes - anyone who is not flat out angry at the offenders needs a reality check.

And the “well they do it too” perspective is not befitting of a Christian.

The offenders should be handed over to the court system like any other criminal, not protected by the Church.

So, a calm, reasoned assessment of what happened and why isn’t good enough? I’m surprised that the only reaction one is allowed is “outrage,” which certainly makes one feel good about oneself, but does nothing to remedy the situation. We need more than outrage, we need effective action to prevent it happening again.

We have to remember that “there, but for the grace of God go I.” If we don’t realize that it can happen again and again, it will happen again and again. It has to be recognized as a problem on every level and dealt with–with more than mere moral outrage.

This topic gets dredged up every time there’s some news report–usually about something that happen decades ago, that incites all kinds of “discussion” that solves nothing except to let people vent their anger against the Church. Frankly, I’m done talking about it. So, respond if you wish, but I won’t be here to say anything more because I have nothing more to say about it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Because it wasn’t looked upon as a crime but as a sin that could be overcome. People didn’t know that pedophiles are deeply psychologically damaged people. Abuse of children was as widespread in the general population then as now, but no one was willing to do anything about it. Indeed, bishops sent pedophile priests to psychiatrists for “treatment”, which they got, but it was ineffective in most cases. Still, they were sent back to the ministries having been “cured” by the treatment they got. They weren’t cured.

In the past, people didn’t also realize that abuse and trauma to children had lasting, lifelong effects, including possibly causing that child to propagate his own abuse upon the next generation of children when he became an adult. It was thought to be something that the kids could forget or get over or set aside or wasn’t that big of a deal. These attitudes weren’t just within the Church but also within the general populace. We know better now, but a lot of damage has already been done.

 

[Markie_Boy]

Outrage is not my goal. There are times to get upset - and I’m a little put off by those that don’t seem upset, and the reply is “it happens other places too”.

I live in a place where we don’t stand for what’s right enough. Our local parish is quite liberal, clergy and management included to a large degree, so I am a little geared at being a conservative in that environment - forgive me.

 

[Della]

In the past, people didn’t also realize that abuse and trauma to children had lasting, lifelong effects, including possibly causing that child to propagate his own abuse upon the next generation of children when he became an adult. It was thought to be something that the kids could forget or get over or set aside or wasn’t that big of a deal. These attitudes weren’t just within the Church but also within the general populace. We know better now, but a lot of damage has already been done.

Yes. A problem yet to be solved, but one that urgently needs to be.

 

[Della]

Outrage is not my goal. There are times to get upset - and I’m a little put off by those that don’t seem upset, and the reply is “it happens other places too”.

I live in a place where we don’t stand for what’s right enough. Our local parish is quite liberal, clergy and management included to a large degree, so I am a little geared at being a conservative in that environment - forgive me.

We do what we can where we are, I agree. As for being upset. I’m plenty upset, but I remember that the Church has a two natures, like her Head and Founder. She is both human and divine. In her divinity, she can do no wrong and make no errors. In her humanity, however, she can act like the devil himself because we are all fallen and in need of daily grace to keep from sin–small ones as well as the most egregious ones.

I simply am not shocked that this happened because I am well aware of my own sins and how black they could get without God’s grace. What upsets most people is the idea that the bishops “did nothing” except repost pedophiles to new parishes. Naturally people will feel that way, but is that really the case? I’ve explained that it wasn’t that simple, but it seems facts often fall on deaf ears when people can’t see beyond their moral outrage.

I cannot answer for your parish and what it is doing to prevent abuse. They may be doing more than you know. It’s something you may wish to discuss with your parish leadership.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Outrage is not my goal. There are times to get upset - and I’m a little put off by those that don’t seem upset, and the reply is “it happens other places too”.

I live in a place where we don’t stand for what’s right enough. Our local parish is quite liberal, clergy and management included to a large degree, so I am a little geared at being a conservative in that environment - forgive me.

I don’t think anyone in their right mind thinks that child abuse is not upsetting or no big deal, whether they openly express anger at it or not.

Anger is an energy. I find that just expressing it may be fine for me blowing off steam for myself, but it does very little to address any problem in a practical way.

What do you think Catholics should do now to properly show they are making a stand? Other than not deny that it’s happening or attempt to sweep it under the rug.

 

[Markie_Boy]

We do what we can where we are, I agree. As for being upset. I’m plenty upset, but I remember that the Church has a two natures, like her Head and Founder. She is both human and divine. In her divinity, she can do no wrong and make no errors. In her humanity, however, she can act like the devil himself because we are all fallen and in need of daily grace to keep from sin–small ones as well as the most egregious ones.

I simply am not shocked that this happened because I am well aware of my own sins and how black they could get without God’s grace. What upsets most people is the idea that the bishops “did nothing” except repost pedophiles to new parishes. Naturally people will feel that way, but is that really the case? I’ve explained that it wasn’t that simple, but it seems facts often fall on deaf ears when people can’t see beyond their moral outrage.

I cannot answer for your parish and what it is doing to prevent abuse. They may be doing more than you know. It’s something you may wish to discuss with your parish leadership.

Our parish seems to do OK to prevent abuse - it’s many of the other issues that need help.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

hmm

au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/36435177/fanatic-german-choirmaster-was-feared-by-pupils/#page1

mentions Mueller and the older brother of the Pope Emeritus.

 

[johnnykins]

Because it wasn’t looked upon as a crime but as a sin that could be overcome. People didn’t know that pedophiles are deeply psychologically damaged people. Abuse of children was as widespread in the general population then as now, but no one was willing to do anything about it.

BULL FEATHERS!! As a teenager I knew “16 will get you 20” - and what it meant. And I was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Those evil evil EVIL priests, bishops, brothers and sisters who did and covered up these things knew - or should have know - what they were doing was evil and illegal.

Also, any group has the tendency to protect their own, be it priests or doctors or police or others who deal with the public.

But few will treat kids like this - actually rape - that’s the word for underage sex by an adult - rape - children.

It’s not as simple as no one did anything about it when they knew they should.

Horse hooey! Very very few did anything and yes - they knew better or should have known. It was and is that simple. That’s the disgrace. Trying to excuse it is despicable.

If it had been that simple, the level of abuse wouldn’t have been as high.

It was that high because NOTHING was done. that’s the point. It was deliberate, consistent - SOP - to cover up,prevaricate and save money.

Again, this is a human failing, a sin, and a crime (when acted upon). It has to be treated as such, with protection of victims in mind far more than that of the abusers.

It was institutional - that’s what you’re missing.

 

[pnewton]

When I saw this, I mis-read “six years” and wondered what the odds were it was another historical report, as opposed to news. Yep. 1945-1990.

They should have gone back one more decade to see how the Jews were treated by the German people so we can get really mad at Germans.

 

[Rosebud77]

The BBC, like all media, is using a tragic past against the Church’s present.** What can the Church do now, 60 years past,** except offer condolences, counseling and monetary remuneration to those yet living? New safeguards are in place and new scrutiny has been applied. Too late for some and of course, this should never have happened - but it did.

The ‘sexual revolution’ affected the entire world and look at its fruits: child abuse, millions aborted, rampant promiscuity, marriages ruined, multiplication of sexually transmitted diseases, the utter degradation of women, despair, suicide. You will know them by their fruits.

Has their been inexplicable laxity in all aspects of the Church? Yes, and this is one of the worst aspects. Failure to catechize, bowing to the Zeitgeist, lowering standards, false ecumenism, distorted liturgy, insipid music - the evil one’s corrosive influences and attacks do not cease.

The utter shame is that it took 60 years for this to be exposed. Noone has spoken of this? Hidden under the carpet for decades? Shameful; deliberate so that that idea could be sued… weeeeelll, that was long ago so it does not matter now…

Seems the ploy has worked well every time.

It actually makes it worse and more shameful by the dimension it adds

We laity must do our part and a goodly part of that is to pray daily that the Bishops will stand firm and make the difficult decisions that have always faced the Church.