Hundreds of German choir boys abused over six decades

[Hoosier_Daddy]

In the past, people didn’t also realize that abuse and trauma to children had lasting, lifelong effects, including possibly causing that child to propagate his own abuse upon the next generation of children when he became an adult. It was thought to be something that the kids could forget or get over or set aside or wasn’t that big of a deal. These attitudes weren’t just within the Church but also within the general populace. We know better now, but a lot of damage has already been done.

No. That’s a ridiculous look at short term history. To think a parent of a child molested today is less hurt and able to parent than one 30, 40 or more years ago is not correct. People darn well knew what it did. Perhaps more so than now.
It could easily be argued children are abused more and with less compassion and understanding than in parts of history.
Other societies have protected children better than we do with our constant sexualization.
60 years ago, “teen vogue” wasn’t printing sodomy manuals for children.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

No. That’s a ridiculous look at short term history. To think a parent of a child molested today is less hurt and able to parent than one 30, 40 or more years ago is not correct. People darn well knew what it did. Perhaps more so than now.

Where did you get the impression that I said a parent today of a child molested is less hurt and able to parent than one 30, 40 etc. years ago? That is not what I said and it does not even make logical sense to me.

Individual people and even some in authority may have been sensitive to child abuse in decades past, but not everyone was, and this is shown by the fact that our society has been strengthening laws and penalties against child abuse since about the 80s. We did not have sex offender registries until about the 1990s. We did not have mandatory reporting laws for child abuse until around the same time.

In the 60s and 70s there were actual articles in mainstream publications like Reader’s Digest that had experts saying some pedophiles weren’t so dangerous because they just touched small children in a “grandfatherly” way. I doubt anyone would print such an article today. And child abuse, both physical and sexual, was seen as some sort of lower-class thing (remember the original “Peyton Place” film) and people simply would not believe it could and did happen in “nice” families or that upstanding members of the community, including priests, could be abusers; the abuse would be explained away somehow or worse yet blamed on the child. I am not excusing any of this but it’s not a “ridiculous look at history” to state facts.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Where did you get the impression that I said a parent today of a child molested is less hurt and able to parent than one 30, 40 etc. years ago? That is not what I said and it does not even make logical sense to me.

Individual people and even some in authority may have been sensitive to child abuse in decades past, but not everyone was, and this is shown by the fact that our society has been strengthening laws and penalties against child abuse since about the 80s. We did not have sex offender registries until about the 1990s. We did not have mandatory reporting laws for child abuse until around the same time.

In the 60s and 70s there were actual articles in mainstream publications like Reader’s Digest that had experts saying some pedophiles weren’t so dangerous because they just touched small children in a “grandfatherly” way. I doubt anyone would print such an article today. And child abuse, both physical and sexual, was seen as some sort of lower-class thing (remember the original “Peyton Place” film) and people simply would not believe it could and did happen in “nice” families or that upstanding members of the community, including priests, could be abusers; the abuse would be explained away somehow or worse yet blamed on the child. I am not excusing any of this but it’s not a “ridiculous look at history” to state facts.

Our society is far more interested in exposing young children to sex now than before. This idea that, "golly people just didn’t think molestation was that bad back then is burying heads in the sand.

 

[pnewton]

It could easily be argued children are abused more and with less compassion and understanding than in parts of history.
Other societies have protected children better than we do with our constant sexualization.
60 years ago, “teen vogue” wasn’t printing sodomy manuals for children.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. There is a small industry of dressing little girls up like models for kid beauty pageants. Prime time is full of sexual references. Kids are taught that the word “sexy” means looking good. Then there is the push for early and more graphic sex education you mention. It is not just sex offenders that are victimizing children but a large section of society.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I hadn’t thought of it that way. There is a small industry of dressing little girls up like models for kid beauty pageants. Prime time is full of sexual references. Kids are taught that the word “sexy” means looking good. Then there is the push for early and more graphic sex education you mention. It is not just sex offenders that are victimizing children but a large section of society.

This is also true; however, I think it’s important to note that those who commit child sex abuse are not being driven or drawn to it by the sexualization of children. People with these sick tendencies are like all rapists, seeking power; not doing it because they are turned on by a “sexy” picture of a child. They would do their bad acts regardless of whether the kid was dressed like Jon Benet Ramsay or in an age-appropriate outfit.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I hadn’t thought of it that way. There is a small industry of dressing little girls up like models for kid beauty pageants. Prime time is full of sexual references. Kids are taught that the word “sexy” means looking good. Then there is the push for early and more graphic sex education you mention. It is not just sex offenders that are victimizing children but a large section of society.

Yes. And sadly the Church is not immune.
I don’t think it’s ( better) because of some steps the Church has taken. Perhaps it’s even caused complacency because people think these things don’t happen as often anymore.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Our society is far more interested in exposing young children to sex now than before. This idea that, "golly people just didn’t think molestation was that bad back then is burying heads in the sand.

My view is supported by research into the issue and into the evolution of child protection laws, which I have been involved in enforcing in the past, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My view is supported by research into the issue and into the evolution of child protection laws, which I have been involved in enforcing in the past, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I guess so. We all have our experiences.

As someone who worked with youth in the Church for years, I can tell you that there is a huge problem. Clericalism has its downfall. the biggest visible response to the scandal was “safe environment” enforcement for parish workers. Get that? The parents of the kids have to be trained on how not to hug children or be alone with them…
And somehow we feel safer around father because of that.

I used to wonder how parents could not believe thier own children. Now I see it.

 

[Bonnie]

the biggest visible response to the scandal was “safe environment” enforcement for parish workers. Get that? The parents of the kids have to be trained on how not to hug children or be alone with them…
And somehow we feel safer around father because of that.

I’ve long believed that the “safe environment” thing was simply a CYA for the Church. If there is abuse, they can always point to the paperwork & say, “See! We did everything right - you can’t blame (sue) us!”

When I did weekly babysitting for a mom’s group at our parish, I filled out the paperwork so they would know they weren’t getting a molester - or at least not a convicted one. I did my own CYA - I insisted on a child gate for the door so I could leave the door open at all times. I felt much safer.

 

[pianistclare]

As long as Catholic view it as a CYA scenario…it will never change.
We have to DEMAND change. And transparency. And every single person in parishes has to be on board.

You’d be amazed at how many people will not do the paperwork because they are insulted.
So be it. I have kids to protect.

 

[Padres1969]

Hadn’t seen this part of the story reported earlier in this thread. But it appears that the choir in question where 547 boys were abused was run by Father Georg Ratzinger, brother of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, for almost 30 years.

cbsnews.com/news/germany-domspatzen-catholic-boys-choir-abuse-physically-sexually/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=596ee48104d30115e629cee2&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

 

[pnewton]

When I did weekly babysitting for a mom’s group at our parish, I filled out the paperwork so they would know they weren’t getting a molester - or at least not a convicted one. I did my own CYA - I insisted on a child gate for the door so I could leave the door open at all times. I felt much safer.

Sounds like a good plan. I know this training thing is mainly CYA, and a real waste of time for some of us who have to take classes like this elsewhere. It real is mostly going through the motions. But what you did was a real solution, as are a lot of things that the dioceses are doing around the world. My favorite, as I think it is the most beneficial, is having a set of basic safety rules that people receive and sign for. Then, if there is an issue that is reported, at least the person bears some responsibility for their breaking the rule.

 

[pnewton]

We also need to remember this:

It counted 500 cases of physical violence and 67 of sexual violence, committed by a total of 49 perpetrators.

Again, the count started in Germany, 1945.

 

[pnewton]

cnn.com/2017/07/19/europe/german-choir-abuse/index.html

“Many of them called the time there as the worst of their lives, marked by violence, fear and helplessness.”
Of 547 students, 500 said they had been the victims of physical violence, such as beatings, while another 67 said they had been the victims of sexual abuse. Some had experienced both.
“Reasons (for physical violence) were misconduct or poor performance of the students, but also arbitrariness by the educators,” the report said.

Many of the offenses occurred in the 1960s and 1970s, with 98 victims from 1960-69 and 168 victims from 1970-79, the report said.

It suggests the majority of the abuse took place in the pre-school, or Vorschule, which moved to Etterzhausen in the late 1940s, then to nearby Pielenhofen from 1981 to 2013. A boarding school in Regensburg has catered for students aged 11 to 18 since 1952.

 

[Padres1969]

We also need to remember this:

It counted 500 cases of physical violence and 67 of sexual violence, committed by a total of 49 perpetrators.

Again, the count started in Germany, 1945.

Does any of this lessen the scope or outrage at what occurred?

 

[pnewton]

Does any of this lessen the scope or outrage at what occurred?

Yes. 67 allegations of sexual abuse is less that “over 500” as one article describe. 67 allegations over sixty years is a smaller percentage that 67 in the last ten years would be. Math.

 

[Padres1969]

Yes. 67 allegations of sexual abuse is less that “over 500” as one article describe. 67 allegations over sixty years is a smaller percentage that 67 in the last ten years would be. Math.

So you’re saying the other kinds of non-sexual abuse were ok?

Or are you saying that 67 cases of abuse isn’t a huge deal?

 

[abucs]

I think pnewton is right in that numbers do matter and of course it does not make better the individual cases of abuse and the church of course needs to deal with this very serious matter.

I do not criticise people (not referring to pnewton) who want to point out also the failing of other groups. I think this is also important as part of the discussion.

But of course this shouldn’t stop us from discussing what has gone wrong inside the church in certain areas and why this has happened. The main concern for everyone I suggest, is to help victims in a responsible way, have a clear analysis and explanation of what went very wrong and what the church proposes to ensure they are doing all they can to keep such evil out.

 

[Rosebud77]

Does any of this lessen the scope or outrage at what occurred?

Got room for a little one over there please?

 

[pnewton]

Or are you saying that 67 cases of abuse isn’t a huge deal?

That would depend on how the word “abuse” is defined, because abuse, by the normal definition of the word, is never acceptable. However, that you even asked this question this way shows the power of rhetoric. Nonetheless, not all that is called abuse is universally agreed upon, and not all that is called abuse is equal. So yes, knowing facts and information can lessen or increase the scope of what has happened in Germany over in the six decades immediately following the war.

As to what is okay or not, that has to be weighed on a case by case basis, as most people know.