husband won't work

[whatevergirl]

**No one has the right to judge how or why a woman is working outside of the home. If she is placing her family first, and feels called by God in this way to help out…or support her husband in this way, no one has the right to judge.

Jesus had lots to say about throwing stones.

This thread has turned into a rant about women who work outside of the homes, instead of what Naomi, the OP, should do in her given situation. There are lots of ideas, but I don’t understand why the tone has changed to women against women…railing on and on about women who work outside of the home. I didn’t when my kids were little, but that’s ME. I don’t judge others who work outside of the home, and neither should anyone else.

No one is ‘better than’ another.

Please…stop throwing stones. **

 

[LilyM]

**No one has the right to judge how or why a woman is working outside of the home. If she is placing her family first, and feels called by God in this way to help out…or support her husband in this way, no one has the right to judge.

Jesus had lots to say about throwing stones.

This thread has turned into a rant about women who work outside of the homes, instead of what Naomi, the OP, should do in her given situation. There are lots of ideas, but I don’t understand why the tone has changed to women against women…railing on and on about women who work outside of the home. I didn’t when my kids were little, but that’s ME. I don’t judge others who work outside of the home, and neither should anyone else.

No one is ‘better than’ another.

Please…stop throwing stones. **

Thank you - worse than the ranting about women working outside the home, it’s turned into taking digs at the CHILDREN of women who work outside the home.

 

[whatevergirl]

Thank you - worse than the ranting about women working outside the home, it’s turned into taking digs at the CHILDREN of women who work outside the home.

Yeah, it’s just gone way beyond what the initial thread was about.

 

[iluvmybabies]

I read in a census in Canada one of the provinces is in need of people who want to work and families who have young children because couples are not willing to have any more children!!! They speak of things like “I like my time, I like my party life, I have a lifestyle to keep up with, I like my hubby and me time, I like our passionate times, I like our adult times, I like our friends’ times, I like our going out and spending my money how I want time!!” It’s really sad that if any of these people were to have children the first thing they would do is be super glad their child is in daycare all day long and only have to “deal” with their child for dinner and bedtime…It’s really sad. While there are so many other families adopting children because they can not have their own, at least providing homes to all these abandoned babies, there are those that are so greedy that don’t care about life nor helping others except for themselves and then when they have their children those are the children that grow up to be bullies and tend to hurt others because they know nothing about love except for whatever the daycare teaches them!! Very sad…
A friend of mine works full-time 2 jobs, she’s a single mom, but even when she was married, the same thing, her baby has been in daycare 24/7 of course it’s with a woman she respects and knows but still it’s like “HELLO? What’s the point of having kids if you are just going to leave them all day with someone else to enjoy all the silly and great things children learn to do?” I don’t understand that one?! She tells me things like “well that’s the difference between women on welfare and those of us that can support ourselves perfectly well!!!” And I understand her but still she’s pg with her second baby and even though her first born is an exceptional child, it still hurts me to see that he’s growing up to be a little colder than I thought he would grow up to be because my bf is a great woman sweet and everything but I don’t know sometimes she makes me think maybe it’s wrong to have kids you know? They become a chore or another job not a wonderful gift any more to some people…

There is a woman that goes and stays with one of the men in my neighborhood, he’s this older man and she’s a single mom…She has a 4 year old child, gorgeous but he’s a trouble maker, and has a really bad mouth, I mean really bad! He punches anyone because he can he cusses anyone out as if he were an adult…It’s really sad…She tells him off infront of anyone she doesn’t care!! Her bf lives accross from me but after she saw the way this woman treated her son she told me she has cut out their friendship big time…if they communicate she told me it’s for a few minutes because she doesn’t like her any more…That she couldn’t believe the first time she smacked her child with a closed fist!!!

The other day the little boy was playing on his bike trying to torment another child ended up rear ending the other child who also was on a bike, the tiny tot, he’s 4 remember, ends up busting his lip and his head open, he flew off his bike, instead of his mother rushing in to help him she picks him up and drags him screaming at him and telling him off while blood is running down his head and lips…I didn’t witness this my kids told me about it I was getting changed, but I did hear her screaming and cussing at someone… I was like what’s going on? Well later on that night she comes back to our neighbor’s house without the baby…little boy. I was like what happened? You know? So my bf and his bf show up and want to have a few drinks with the neighbor so they call out to him, knock on the door and ask if he’s allowed to come out and play, like a bunch of men joking and mockingly you know, she comes out raving mad and screaming cussing at them, telling them off and telling them she was calling the cops on them… My bf was so upset he told her it was none of her business, and that the next time she threatened to call the cops on him for no reason he was going to call child services for the way she mistreats and hurts her child…It’s been a while since we have seen her, last week she stopped over to her bf house and she stayed there for about 30 min with her child and her child saw us and gave us this dirty look of death, full of hate, I kid you not!! And she did as well…then she stopped to the neighbor’s house and she stays for short periods of time without her child… her bf told me that one night that woman’s car broke down and they had to help her right, and she was drunk, her son kept crying telling them my mommy hates me over and over and over again until they left…He wouldn’t stop crying there was nothing to console him at all, it made me so sad to hear that…

Another woman that used to live in our neighborhood, has 3 gorgeous boys!! Adorable things…but her mother babysits…she too has 2 jobs…her oldest is over protective of the youngest, but a huge daredevil and follows in his 19 year old uncle’s footsteps…his uncle jumps trains and takes this 10 year old child along…
The middle child was turning out to be like that other woman’s little 4 year old tot, always causing trouble always rude and mean…he’s changed a little bit…and their youngest brother now 5 years old, is starting to act like that 4 year old tiny tot and his uncle and older brother…Where is the mother??? She makes up for this in toys and lots of material items for her children…

 

[whatevergirl]

that could be the way they feel about it now, iluvmybabies…but, so much changes when you have children. I thought I’d pursue a career when my kids were little, and I stayed at home…and loved it. I think that it’s easy to be selfish when it’s just you, but once kids come into play, you never know how a person might react, and change. But again, some women would like to stay at home, and can’t…for whatever the reason. Not all men can run out and make 6-figures to support a household. Or make even $50k.

I still don’t concern myself with what other women are doing around me. If there are selfish women around me, I will pray for them. Men can be selfish too. Men working around the clock, and never seeing their kids, can also be for selfish reasons. We place men on a pedestal for being workaholics in this country, assuming it’s always for the good of their families, but many are selfish, and want to buy the latest and greatest car, or gadget. It just seems like women are beat up more over ‘choosing’ to work then men. It is a head scratcher to me. The value that a dad brings to his children, can never be replaced by a mother, no matter how much she stays at home, if the dad is absent more often than not, the kids will feel that. Sometimes, when I read threads like this, I get the impression that we devalue the role a dad plays, and make it look like as long as a woman is home with her kids, all is well in the kids lives. Not always so. I have friends who lament over never seeing their dad, because he was ‘always working.’ They don’t have relationships with their dad. Their dads were selfish people, and really, they didn’t need to work all those hours, but CHOSE to. Again, not judging, but observing.

It’s none of my business why a woman works…even if she chooses to, and doesn’t ‘need’ to. It’s not my place to tell her she’s wrong.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I read in a census in Canada one of the provinces is in need of people who want to work and families who have young children because couples are not willing to have any more children!!! They speak of things like “I like my time, I like my party life, I have a lifestyle to keep up with, I like my hubby and me time, I like our passionate times, I like our adult times, I like our friends’ times, I like our going out and spending my money how I want time!!” It’s really sad that if any of these people were to have children the first thing they would do is be super glad their child is in daycare all day long and only have to “deal” with their child for dinner and bedtime…It’s really sad.

The gov’ here is trying to institute gov’ daycare programs… they are willing to sink a ton of money into it in order to provide dual income families with “child care” but completely unwilling to help stay at home parents. With those census results, it’s no wonder:shrug:

I don’t know why working out of the home moms have to take threads like this personally. I can recognize that there are plenty of moms who work because they don’t have a choice. But I can also see that there are plenty who work because they would rather do that than raise their own children. Any comments made towards those types of selfish women DO NOT APPLY to moms who would rather stay home but cannot in their own circumstances.

 

[whatevergirl]

**Malia–not taking it personally. I have been both in my life–a SAHM and now, a working mom. I just don’t see where we should be judging any woman who chooses to work. It’s not our place. Doesn’t matter her reasons.

There are selfish people everywhere. It just seems like these threads always derail into SAHM’s vs working women, and it just saddens me that we’re not all trying to support one another, and learn from one another. **

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

It’s none of my business why a woman works…even if she chooses to, and doesn’t ‘need’ to. It’s not my place to tell her she’s wrong.

**
I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn’t judge a woman as wrong who told you that she would rather do things for herself than for her children. Being selfish is a bad thing. When did it become wrong to state that? Just because it is another mother we suddenly have to become neutral like Sweden?**
**
As Catholics we know there are objective wrongs…** being selfish is one of them. Now, i hope nobody twists my words to make it seem like I am equating working moms with being selfish…just that in some cases that is true.

 

[LilyM]

ILMB - again with the bashing of children of women who work!

Do you seriously want me to show the illogicality of your reasoning process by going through every instance I’ve seen in the past of SAHMs whose children turn out equally bad as the ones you’re describing?

How about the SAHMs I’ve seen who are, or have been, so resentful of staying at home, so stressed about living on a single income, that they end up, sadly, abusing their children, abusing drugs or alcohol, or spending way more than the family income on ‘retail therapy’ because they feel so unfulfilled in their lives?

Here’s a quick test - go to your bible, open up to the last chapter of Proverbs and read there the description of an ideal wife.

Does she restrict herself to doing housework and looking after children? Certainly not! She does paid work, work which brings in a monetary income with which to provide for her family. More than that, she invests said income in property, and personally plants vineyards, which surely required, then as it would now, a considerable amount of time spent away from home and children.

In other words … she’s a working mother and not a SAHM. And having read it, then remember this is holy scripture - not particularly dealing in man’s ideal of a wife, but God’s.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**Malia–not taking it personally. I have been both in my life–a SAHM and now, a working mom. I just don’t see where we should be judging any woman who chooses to work. It’s not our place. Doesn’t matter her reasons.

There are selfish people everywhere. It just seems like these threads always derail into SAHM’s vs working women, and it just saddens me that we’re not all trying to support one another, and learn from one another. **

**
Yes, there are selfish people everywhere…and in other threads it is fine to state that. Like in threads where it is about men not being devoted to their families but maybe spending too much time out with their buddies or blowing the family budget on toys… nobody jumps in then and tells us not to judge that behavior:shrug:

When it comes women making selfish choices it seems like other women don’t want to call it wrong. Why?
**

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Here’s a quick test - go to your bible, open up to the last chapter of Proverbs and read there the description of an ideal wife.

Does she restrict herself to doing housework and looking after children? Certainly not! She does paid work, work which brings in a monetary income with which to provide for her family. More than that, she invests said income in property, and personally plants vineyards, which surely required, then as it would now, a considerable amount of time spent away from home and children.

**
Wouldn’t that be a situation more like family farms where all work together for the good of the family? I can see a woman with her children around her in the vineyard, the smallest one nursing in a sling as she goes about her “work”… but maybe I am just naive.
**

 

[LilyM]

**
Yes, there are selfish people everywhere…and in other threads it is fine to state that. Like in threads where it is about men not being devoted to their families but maybe spending too much time out with their buddies or blowing the family budget on toys… nobody jumps in then and tells us not to judge that behavior:shrug:

When it comes women making selfish choices it seems like other women don’t want to call it wrong. Why?
**

How is it selfish for a woman who realises she a) would not be a good SAHM (as many would sadly do only after having children), and/or b) can make just as great a contribution to the planet by working

to give care of her child, for part of the day, to those who would do the job at least as well, and probably better?

Is it really better simply be a poor mother and nothing else, or a poor mother who at least has the sense to realise it, and instead be a great worker (and probably a better mother as a result of feeling more useful) and give the child to someone who can raise them just as well or better?

If that’s selfish, then it must also be selfish for a man who realises that he can’t fix a car or a leaky shower to call in a mechanic or a plumber.

As for the vineyard … my parents have a fruit farm, and no it wouldn’t work that way. Kids would be left in the care of older relatives, possibly out in the field so that they can be fed when necessary (if still at the breastfeeding stage) but not in a sling or hanging around Mom’s neck or ankles :nope:

 

[iluvmybabies]

that could be the way they feel about it now, iluvmybabies…but, so much changes when you have children. I thought I’d pursue a career when my kids were little, and I stayed at home…and loved it. I think that it’s easy to be selfish when it’s just you, but once kids come into play, you never know how a person might react, and change. But again, some women would like to stay at home, and can’t…for whatever the reason. Not all men can run out and make 6-figures to support a household. Or make even $50k.

I still don’t concern myself with what other women are doing around me. If there are selfish women around me, I will pray for them. Men can be selfish too. Men working around the clock, and never seeing their kids, can also be for selfish reasons. We place men on a pedestal for being workaholics in this country, assuming it’s always for the good of their families, but many are selfish, and want to buy the latest and greatest car, or gadget. It just seems like women are beat up more over ‘choosing’ to work then men. It is a head scratcher to me. The value that a dad brings to his children, can never be replaced by a mother, no matter how much she stays at home, if the dad is absent more often than not, the kids will feel that. Sometimes, when I read threads like this, I get the impression that we devalue the role a dad plays, and make it look like as long as a woman is home with her kids, all is well in the kids lives. Not always so. I have friends who lament over never seeing their dad, because he was ‘always working.’ They don’t have relationships with their dad. Their dads were selfish people, and really, they didn’t need to work all those hours, but CHOSE to. Again, not judging, but observing.

It’s none of my business why a woman works…even if she chooses to, and doesn’t ‘need’ to. It’s not my place to tell her she’s wrong.

Yes exactly it’s an observation based on our experiences and what we read, see, hear, and notice…It’s not to judge anyone it’s just interesting to note how some people are than others…and that’s fine…everyone chooses what is right for them…I just think that if you are going to have children just make sure your baby isn’t out in the street fighting and cussing his way through life just because you have to over work…nothing more you know…it’s just sad to see such beautiful children that could have great futures start it out a bit on the dark side… And they look so unhappy!!! I told my bf if I could I would adopt them all! I am not a perfect person, nor am I the greatest mom but I can tell you every chance I can I am beating myself to please my kids!!! And give them as much love and affection as I can…no matter how exhausted…If I am irritated I will ask them to give me a few mins you know then things get better for all of us…

Regarding the OP I feel for her because it’s hard to make it now-a-days especially without help…Yes I understand what you are saying not many are able to make that kind of money, we are in the below poverty level no luxuries and only 1 vehicle, no cable, and no cell phones, again no luxuries and it hurts especially in emergencies we can’t contact anyone but oh well, have to feed my children first you know?! We manage thank GOD and yes we have to borrow money lots of it sometimes but I am trying to make it…
I am hoping my bf when he becomes my hubby things will get better for all of us and we can actually live without struggling so much and have plenty of family time…I just hope he doesn’t turn out to be one of those men that just doesn’t want to work, nor likes overworking as long as he’s out of the home you know?! I know we can’t have it all but with both of us working I don’t see a need for either you know? crossing fingers

I do pray for OP and everyone as well, it’s hard to really get things done when you are stressing over where the money is going to come from…

 

[rayne89]

[continued]

They are both doing much better than I in creating financial stability for their little families.

But when I compared our sons, oh my. My friends son is a nice boy, bright, who recieves his mothers dedicated care. But he is markedly socially immature. My son asked me, “Why does “Bobby” act like a baby?” (Bobby tugs on his Mom, hits her, etc. while she talks. He plays hide-n’-seek in the restaurant, and says silly sing-song things repetitively while giggling, and other very immature things, and his immaturity is pointed out by his teachers as well.) I tell my son that Bobby was in day care from the time he was a baby, or being neglected on court-ordered weekends with his (irresponsible, abusive) father when he really needed his mother. So those needs to be with Mom weren’t met, and now that he is in middle school he still needs Mom like a little kid does.

As to the other boy, “Lee”, although he is bright, plays an instrument and is in two advanced classes with my son, he is so overtly annoying that even I get annoyed - and I am long on patience. My son cannot stand to be around him, and this is the only child he has ever had that reaction to. In answer to my son’s question on why Lee is like this, I say Lee didn’t have his mother in his life enough and spent lots of his time in day care since he was a baby.“So thats why you need keep doing well in school, so you know how to work hard in a good job, in case your vocation is marriage. Then your wife will be able to be home with your children, and you’ll have childen you can enjoy becasue they won’t be annoying out of neediness. Like your cousins, and like __'s family and ___'s family, who all have Moms who were home all the time, or at least, a lot.”

Gee I thought “socially immature” and “annoying” is how homeschooled children are often described by some non-homeschoolers. And there with the mom’s all the time…or least people think they are. There are a few I know that actually are so I guess that homeschooling produces socially immature and annoying children…I wonder how to explain the mature, likeable homeschooled children? A fluke?

This is a really big leap…and the conclusions you draw on cause and effect are just your opinion. So how do you explain socially immature and annoying children with stay-at-home mom’s? Or mature, likable children of working parents?

 

[LilyM]

Gee I thought “socially immature” and “annoying” is how homeschooled children are often described by some non-homeschoolers. And there with the mom’s all the time…or least people think they are. There are a few I know that actually are so I guess that homeschooling produces socially immature and annoying children…I wonder how to explain the mature, likeable homeschooled children? A fluke?

This is a really big leap…and the conclusions you draw on cause and effect are just your opinion. So how do you explain socially immature and annoying children with stay-at-home mom’s? Or mature, likable children of working parents?

Oh man, this thread is seriously becoming like the mother’s version of the Pharisee and the Publican - I can just see the virtuous SAHM at the front in the Temple saying ‘Oh Lord I thank you that my children are not as these others, they don’t fight or cuss or do anything bad (because we know that SAHM children could NEVER possibly do such things) :nope: … and Lord I thank you that I had the good sense to stay at home, because Lord you know those working mothers are just too stupid/neglectful/selfish/generally inferior to teach their children values or give them proper discipline or love …’.

Never mind that a commercial can persuade a child to buy something in 30 seconds, or a science teacher get across the basics of human reproduction in an hour or two, you think the average 6 hours a day absolute minimum that a working parent can devote to their children isn’t enough to teach them sufficiently?

 

[iluvmybabies]

The gov’ here is trying to institute gov’ daycare programs… they are willing to sink a ton of money into it in order to provide dual income families with “child care” but completely unwilling to help stay at home parents. With those census results, it’s no wonder:shrug:

Yes and I also read another census that stated if SAHM would get paid for everything they do they would actually earn over 100 k a year!! Can you imagine that and they say SAHM isn’t a job!! It’s crazy!!!
And yeah I hear you, I have to work no other choice, single mom, lol, but even then before with my exhusband I had to work, no choice either…money was disappearing almost all the time, and where did it go??? I dunno? is the answer I would always get…I don’t take it personally, I mean I love my babies, lol, and I would love to stay at home with them work during the hours they are in school and that’s it but I can’t and really haven’t been able too much either… I admire all who work no matter how much, at least they are trying, but I don’t know how to really consider the facts that it takes 2 to raise children you know?!

I don’t know why working out of the home moms have to take threads like this personally. I can recognize that there are plenty of moms who work because they don’t have a choice. But I can also see that there are plenty who work because they would rather do that than raise their own children. Any comments made towards those types of selfish women DO NOT APPLY to moms who would rather stay home but cannot in their own circumstances.

hmmmm…

 

[iluvmybabies]

**Malia–not taking it personally. I have been both in my life–a SAHM and now, a working mom. I just don’t see where we should be judging any woman who chooses to work. It’s not our place. Doesn’t matter her reasons.

There are selfish people everywhere. It just seems like these threads always derail into SAHM’s vs working women, and it just saddens me that we’re not all trying to support one another, and learn from one another. **

I work as well…I too was a SAHM for a while and I am not trying to judge anyone on the contrary I admire those who work and do what they can for their families as well as those that stay at home…It’s more work than anyone imagines!! I just think that if a father is able to support his family, as with the OP’s then why not make it a little easier on the family and stress relieving for the SAHM or the wife that wants to stay at home and do it that was all…that I was trying to say…
Because it’s not fair if a couple made a choice you know, like the OP that before there were any children he would be the breadwinner, and then change his mind just because…according to the OP he’s been lying a lot, not a good sign…and doesn’t seem to really want to talk or work it out, nevertheless give her a reason…just giving advice that he seems not to really care about his wife’s needs nor feelings and she should def do something about it…
I had to work, either that or leave my hubby which in either case I worked and left him… There comes a time when too much pressure just destroys you, you know? And you need to move on…

 

[iluvmybabies]

**
I find it very hard to believe that you wouldn’t judge a woman as wrong who told you that she would rather do things for herself than for her children. Being selfish is a bad thing. When did it become wrong to state that? Just because it is another mother we suddenly have to become neutral like Sweden?**
Oh I have unfortunately my sister!!! OH MAN!! After she had her first child it was work work work, she made her hubby get 2 jobs and told him “my money is for me, you take care of everything and the kid’s needs!!!” Oh yeah!! I was super disappointed and couldn’t believe it…when I spoke with my mother about it and I spoke with my sister about it infront of my mother my mother agreed and said what’s the big deal? My mother raised my sister’s kids for 7 almost 8 years her eldest and 5 almost 6 years her youngest…It’s hard to see some women just do things like that you know? Not because I want to do them but because I would have to hear my mother b about my sister not taking care of her kids, and I helped raise those children as well…I was their second mother…It was sad…They couldn’t wait to see me and cried when I would leave!!
**
As Catholics we know there are objective wrongs…** being selfish is one of them. Now, i hope nobody twists my words to make it seem like I am equating working moms with being selfish…just that in some cases that is true.

Oh don’t feel bad everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one should take it personally…as a working mom I am hard on myself as well always telling myself my children deserve better but there is no other way you know? One of my friends, she has a lot of health problems and all, and is low on income, but still, decided to just surrender her children to her exhusband because she said he will give them all the things they want!! And I was like well what about the things they need? So what if they don’t have a 360 or a ps3? what’s the big deal if you take care of them and fill them with love they wouldn’t feel the way they do and tell your exhusband what a bad mother you are and have him want to take the children from you!!! I advised her that material things isn’t all that matters but she wouldn’t even try to make her kids happy at all not emotionally or anything else…she was so ill all she could worry and think about was herself…she was stuck in church 24/7 and then home to sleep and I was like where are your children? She would be like oh out there somewhere the neighbor’s my sister etc… I mean I know that it can be either way but somethings are just mind boggling!!!

 

[RubyT]

Get creative * bake bread and sell it. Start a cleaning business - in home day care etc.

I am so sorry about the people on this thread who really don’t know the whole story and think it is okay to judge you. They are being harse and lack empathy. I would bet they don’t have 6 mouths to feed. Judge Not lest ye be judged!

 

[whatevergirl]

**
Yes, there are selfish people everywhere…and in other threads it is fine to state that. Like in threads where it is about men not being devoted to their families but maybe spending too much time out with their buddies or blowing the family budget on toys… nobody jumps in then and tells us not to judge that behavior:shrug:

When it comes women making selfish choices it seems like other women don’t want to call it wrong. Why?
**

I work with a lot of moms…some have babies in daycare…some have grown kids…some have teens…and no one has come out and said…‘I want my children in daycare because my career matters more than them.’ It’s just not a question that is even asked, (and it’s none of my business why there are moms where I work who have babies in daycare) and many of my peers, drive BMW’s and mercedes…so if someone were looking in at them, he or she might jump to a conclusion that…wow, that mom should be at home with her babies. She is driving a BMW, and doesn’t really need that, she is wrong for working. Maybe they could/should downsize, but it’s still not my place to judge.

There have been a lot of suggestions made to the OP. They are just suggestions. No one is saying that the OP should work, they are just suggesting things.

I never judged my friends who were working while their kids were in daycare, when I stayed at home. And I knew they had lavish lifestyles. The thinking often was…if their husbands get layed off, they want to be marketable, and be able to support their families. That is noble for a woman to follow to think that way. And many women might have the same opinion. I don’t think women are going to freely say…‘I have a career and that comes first before my baby.’ I mean, I don’t know a soul who would rather be working than with her baby. So, that’s why I scratch my head with these threads, because we can go round and round for a very long time, and in the end…we have no idea why some women work, but many speculate that most are somehow selfish and just want lavish lifestyles. The truth is, we just don’t know, therefore we shouldn’t judge on things we don’t know. Just like we don’t know if a person is in mortal sin or not…so we should not judge. On the outset, it might appear one way, but there are other variables. We can offer advice, but there seems to be a tone of judgement in this thread…and again, SAHM’s vs working moms. It’s just a shame that women feel the need to belittle other women who make different choices than them…on both sides of the fence.

That’s all I’m saying.