So the job of police is to keep police alive? Our military seem to be willing to lose their life in order to protect others freedoms. Our police seem to believe their job is to encroach upon freedoms in order to protect themselves.This will not keep police alive. This will get them killed. To accomplish this, there would need to be a policy to only shoot after being shot. Civilian review boards are fine, as long as they understand that they are not going to die for making a bad decision after due deliberation and the police officer they are reviewing can die from a bad decision made within seconds. These public forums convince me that most citizens are too ignorant to serve on a review board. Either specialized training would be needed or they would need to seek those who have served as police.
You say police cant run from a situation, but if you believe to move forward is morally wrong you have an obligation to move back. If your training compels you to put yourself and others into a more dangerous situation than needed then again it your obligation to say something about that. If you do something that is immoral because you fear being sued, or having criminal charges then you are in the wrong.One side note that many people seem to have a problem understanding.
When the police are called out to a disturbance they have a obligation to deal with it until peace is restored. The police do not have the option of just leaving when the public safety is in danger.
For example someone mentioned the Powell shooting, you have an aggressive person walking around with a knife and then coming at the police with it (Firstly I don’t know why anyone would think that unjustified, if you come at someone with a knife then what else do you expect them to do?)
The police cannot run from a situation, they can actually be sued and have criminal charges filled against them if they leave a situation that is dangerous and puts others in danger. The police by law have to use what force is reasonable and necessary to stop the threat and restore peace. They do not have the option of just leaving. Yes they cannot use unreasonable force but they cannot refuse to act.
Again I would add on that all of these decisions have to be made on the spot with limited information and the human element such as emotions and danger are all present. The office with only the training he has had (which is usually the bare minimum due to funding and staffing constraints) and his experience has to make judgment calls in a second that lawyers will be poring over for years.
Yea I got to disagree with you on that one. By the time the threat has been verified your probably already dead. Don’t think that you got shot just because they think you have a gun on you, that’s absurd. Police work with people who have guns all the time, in fact most police are some of the most pro gun carry people out there.You are right nobody is a mind reader. That is why an officer should not be permitted to use deadly force unless the threat is real not just perceived. Real needs to be a quantifiable thing. If you thought someone had a gun that is not good enough. Our goal should be keeping everyone alive.
So when those police officers in Ferguson were pointing their guns at the protesters the protesters had a legal right to shoot the officers? Somehow I do not think that would have been how that played out. Shouldn’t the officers have been arresting each other or do police only uphold the law unless the police are the ones breaking it?Yea I got to disagree with you on that one. By the time the threat has been verified your probably already dead. Don’t think that you got shot just because they think you have a gun on you, that’s absurd. Police work with people who have guns all the time, in fact most police are some of the most pro gun carry people out there.
Three things are necessary for the justification of deadly force:
Have a gun on you is only ability. Police don’t shoot people for having a gun, in fact they uphold their right to have it.
- Ability: The means to do great bodily harm
- Opportunity: The proximity to use those means
- Jeopardy: An overt act or intent to use those means.
In addition if you a football field away with a knife that is not opportunity since you probably cant kill someone with a knife 100 yards away. However the rough rule of thumb (not a legal statute) is someone can close the gap and stab someone before they can draw their gun and shoot in 21 feet.
You must also show intent or commit an over act to do great bodily harm. This can be threats or pointing a gun at you etc…
So for example if someone comes up to you with a fun and points it at you then you are justified to shoot them. (Note this is not just cops, its is the same law for all people) They have the Ability: A Gun, the Opportunity: They can shoot you, and have committed an overt act: They pointed it at you.
That’s fine. Believe what you want. Like I said, responses here convince me most people are ignorant as to what police work is.So the job of police is to keep police alive? Our military seem to be willing to lose their life in order to protect others freedoms. Our police seem to believe their job is to encroach upon freedoms in order to protect themselves.
Responses like yours convince me that police need to be left out of the review process entirely. It is shocking how little police seem to believe they can do in these situations.
Firstly, I quoted the CCC as an example of how that response is moralYou say police cant run from a situation, but if you believe to move forward is morally wrong you have an obligation to move back. If your training compels you to put yourself and others into a more dangerous situation than needed then again it your obligation to say something about that. If you do something that is immoral because you fear being sued, or having criminal charges then you are in the wrong.
I watched the Powell video and I thought it was completely immoral. I also saw that likely the officers did the minimum of what was legal and what their training told them. Maybe you are ok with status quo in your job but I am not. The training is wrong if that is how you are supposed to treat that situation.
Police are not above morality.
Your responses are exactly what I would expect from a police officer and exactly why I believe the training you have been given is lacking in morality. Why is the morality of police policy not able to be questioned?
The man was clearly mentally ill. The man is seen on video right before the police show up wandering around and talking to himself. The man had many chances to attack anyone but he did not. The man was attempting suicide by police. I am fairly certain that assisted suicide is against catholic teaching. These officers willingly participated in this.Firstly, I quoted the CCC as an example of how that response is moral
Secondly I have never stated that Police are above morality and have yet to see where this comes into play
Furthermore, I would like to know how exactly the Powell incident was immoral? A man went at the police with a knife demonstrating a clear desire to kill them. They defended themselves. What exactly was the problem?
The Catechism speaks of the legitimate right to self-defense. Assisting in a suicide is not the same as legitimate self defense. What the Catechism actually says is “voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.” I submit that you cannot find one priest bishop or any other Church official that would apply this to killing in self-defense, even if the intent of the person who died was to commit suicide. Unfortunately, suicide by cop is one of those things that can done in a way where the police simply have no choice but to kill.The man was clearly mentally ill. The man is seen on video right before the police show up wandering around and talking to himself. The man had many chances to attack anyone but he did not. The man was attempting suicide by police. I am fairly certain that assisted suicide is against catholic teaching. These officers willingly participated in this.
I hate the police because I wouldn’t trust them in this situation? Clearly I am in the wrong place. I thought these were Catholic forums but I have gotten few responses that are close to the love and support my local Catholic family gives me. So frustrating to come searching for answers and get told you hate police for wanting more to be done.Mentally Ill people murder people everyday. In addition the officers cannot make that kind of decision whether someone may or may not do what they are indicating they are going to do.
If you are coming at me with a knife I don’t have the luxury of trying to guess whether you may or may not kill me or are just bluffing. I have to assume you are going to do what you claim or indicate you are doing.
You complain the officers could have tried more but like you said they only had a few seconds. They pulled up, they told him to drop the knife, he came at them…that’s it. They didn’t have the time to try anything else and you cant just hide in your car with there is a threat to the public out there.
I never said his life was worth anything less than the same as another nor would any officer I know. Being forced to take another’s life, even in self defense, is a tragic and traumatic experience. I have had people die in my arms and even knowing I could not do anything to save them it is still a horrible experience.
Feel free not to call the cops then if you distrust them so much, no one will force you to. However you can bet if they do show up for some reason that they will be doing the best job they can with what they can. Even though you seem to hate them they still put their lives on the line everyday for you.
Like you say, this is a Catholic forum. That is why I have quoted both Scripture and the Catechism. Perhaps you can show where the Catholic Church or any of the bishops have suggested challenging the police might be acceptable?I hate the police because I wouldn’t trust them in this situation? Clearly I am in the wrong place. I thought these were Catholic forums but I have gotten few responses that are close to the love and support my local Catholic family gives me.
12 Years as a Patrol Deputy here and I’m still waiting for that training.As for not submitting to a search, cops are trained to deceive you into giving up your rights. Instead of directly answering, “Am I under arrest?” a standard reply is “Do you want to be?” or “You will be if you don’t cooperate.”
If you refuse a search of your vehicle they will tell you, “We’ll have to wait until we get a K-9 out here.”
Show me that in Law. Quote your sources.And you have every right to film police.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Police get very frustrated as well, I know several and have met a lot of their associates. They’d really love a reliable less lethal tool to use in confrontations. I’ve never met one that wanted to shoot anyone, much less kill them. They shoot to stop the threat. Unfortunately, none of the less lethal methods are completely reliable in stopping someone. That means, to even use one you need a backup with a firearm at the ready.I hate the police because I wouldn’t trust them in this situation? Clearly I am in the wrong place. I thought these were Catholic forums but I have gotten few responses that are close to the love and support my local Catholic family gives me. So frustrating to come searching for answers and get told you hate police for wanting more to be done.
Exactly. There is no 100% “right” to film the police. You need to clarify before you say something like that.Now, if they are clearly obstructing the police while attempting to film them, that is a different issue. But simply filming them is completely legal in accordance with federal rulings.