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CampionTheChampion
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I want something dogmatic. Nobody’s given me that.
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CampionTheChampion
Guest
Except Arius’ teaching was formally condemned by an infallible council.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
May we reasonably hope that all are saved?
“No” says the Second Council of Constantinople: “If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema.” [Denz 211]
To hope that a heretical claim is true is still a heresy. To say “perhaps” a heretical claim is true is still a heresy.
“No” says the Council of Trent: “Truly, even though He died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but only those to whom the merit of His passion is communicated.” [on Justification, Chapter 3]
The chief benefit of the death of Christ is eternal salvation. The Council of Trent infallibly taught that “not all” receive that benefit.
“No” says the Fourth Lateran Council: “He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.”
The General Resurrection includes the reprobate in Hell, and these reprobate souls, having been given a resurrected body, will next be sent to “perpetual” (i.e. eternal) punishment with the devil.
“No” says the Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”
If no human persons are sent to Hell, then there can be no unequal pains.
“No” says the Council of Florence again: “Finally, unless they repent from their hearts, perform deeds worthy of repentance and make worthy satisfaction to your holiness and the universal church for the enormity of their sins, may they be thrust with the wicked into the everlasting darkness, doomed by the just judgment of God to eternal torments.”
If there are no wicked human persons in Hell, then the above infallible teaching would be false. The Council of Florence also taught, similarly to the Fourth Council of the Lateran, that the General Resurrection includes “those who have done evil” who will be sent “into eternal fire”.
“No” says the Fifth Lateran Council: the Lord “promises eternal rewards and eternal punishments to those who will be judged according to the merits of their life” [Sess. 8]
The promise of the Lord Jesus Christ of eternal punishment for those who die in final impenitence would be a false promise if no human persons are sent to Hell.
“No” says the First Vatican Council: “Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God and reach the fellowship of his sons and daughters, it follows that no one can ever achieve justification without it [faith], neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.” [Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap 3].
If all attain eternal life, then this teaching of the First Vatican Council would be null and void; it would be meaningless and false.
“No” says the Second Council of Constantinople: “If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema.” [Denz 211]
To hope that a heretical claim is true is still a heresy. To say “perhaps” a heretical claim is true is still a heresy.
“No” says the Council of Trent: “Truly, even though He died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but only those to whom the merit of His passion is communicated.” [on Justification, Chapter 3]
The chief benefit of the death of Christ is eternal salvation. The Council of Trent infallibly taught that “not all” receive that benefit.
“No” says the Fourth Lateran Council: “He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.”
The General Resurrection includes the reprobate in Hell, and these reprobate souls, having been given a resurrected body, will next be sent to “perpetual” (i.e. eternal) punishment with the devil.
“No” says the Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”
If no human persons are sent to Hell, then there can be no unequal pains.
“No” says the Council of Florence again: “Finally, unless they repent from their hearts, perform deeds worthy of repentance and make worthy satisfaction to your holiness and the universal church for the enormity of their sins, may they be thrust with the wicked into the everlasting darkness, doomed by the just judgment of God to eternal torments.”
If there are no wicked human persons in Hell, then the above infallible teaching would be false. The Council of Florence also taught, similarly to the Fourth Council of the Lateran, that the General Resurrection includes “those who have done evil” who will be sent “into eternal fire”.
“No” says the Fifth Lateran Council: the Lord “promises eternal rewards and eternal punishments to those who will be judged according to the merits of their life” [Sess. 8]
The promise of the Lord Jesus Christ of eternal punishment for those who die in final impenitence would be a false promise if no human persons are sent to Hell.
“No” says the First Vatican Council: “Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God and reach the fellowship of his sons and daughters, it follows that no one can ever achieve justification without it [faith], neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.” [Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap 3].
If all attain eternal life, then this teaching of the First Vatican Council would be null and void; it would be meaningless and false.
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Cruciferi
Guest
Dude, the position of the Catholic Church is clear. It’s a heresy and if you’re advocating it then you’re 100% WRONG.
Would the Pope speaking Ex Cathedra make you feel better?
Would the Pope speaking Ex Cathedra make you feel better?
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CampionTheChampion
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Actually, you haven’t. I’ve been looking, don’t worry.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
Synod of Constantinople 543 Canon 9 (as you have expressed Universalism, but note Universalism is not just about the final judgement)
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JanSobieskiIII
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Cruciferi
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Cue the Emperor
Cue the Emperor
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BoomBoomMancini
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Dude, who peed in your Cheerios this morning? You’re asking people for help in researching a question and you’ve adopted this incredibly abrasive, adversarial posture from the beginning. If you want a fruitful discussion, maybe be less of a condescending jerk.
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JanSobieskiIII
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He wants his opinion confirmed.
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Cruciferi
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CampionTheChampion
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I’ll look into it
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1ke
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1ke
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Is it your position that the Second Council of Constantinople does not hold the weight of infallible teaching? Or is your position that it did not condemn apokatastasis?
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CampionTheChampion
Guest
It isn’t clear if the council actually formally ratified the 15 Origenism condemnations. Even if it did, the council only condemned a form of apokatastasis predicated on the preexistence of souls.
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CampionTheChampion
Guest
But yes I believe the council was binding and infallible.
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ShowersofRoses
Guest
So, just to be clear, you’re rejecting the evidence of
- Scripture, including Jesus’ exact teachings on Hell
- The Catechism
- The Second Council of Constantinople
- The visions and teachings of countless saints and doctors of the Church
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CampionTheChampion
Guest
Lol, of course I reject those things (eye roll).
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Cruciferi
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ShowersofRoses
Guest
You said it wasn’t clear if the Second Council of Constantinople had ratified the findings against Origen and the doctrine of universal salvation.
But it appears that Pope Vigilius and the subsequent Council gave assent to the teachings of the previous five councils, including the 2nd Council of Constantinople, in their opening Statement of Faith, which seems to lend it credibility, in my view.
Statement of Faith of Third Council of Constantinople
This is quite long, but I’ll only quote part of it:
Wherefore this our holy and Ecumenical Synod having driven away the impious error which had prevailed for a certain time until now, and following closely the straight path of the holy and approved Fathers, has piously given its full assent to the five holy and Ecumenical Synods (that is to say, to that of the 318 holy Fathers who assembled in Nice against the raging Arius; and the next in Constantinople of the 150 God-inspired men against Macedonius the adversary of the Spirit, and the impious Apollinaris; and also the first in Ephesus of 200 venerable men convened against Nestorius the Judaizer; and that in Chalcedon of 630 God-inspired Fathers against Eutyches and Dioscorus hated of God; and in addition to these, to the last, that is the Fifth holy Synod assembled in this place, against Theodore of Mopsuestia, Origen, Didymus, and Evagrius, and the writings of Theodoret against the Twelve Chapters of the celebrated Cyril, and the Epistle which was said to be written by Ibas to Maris the Persian), renewing in all things the ancient decrees of religion, and chasing away the impious doctrines of irreligion. And this our holy and Ecumenical Synod inspired of God has set its seal to the Creed which was put forth by the 318 Fathers, and again religiously confirmed by the 150, which also the other holy synods cordially received and ratified for the taking away of every soul-destroying heresy.
But it appears that Pope Vigilius and the subsequent Council gave assent to the teachings of the previous five councils, including the 2nd Council of Constantinople, in their opening Statement of Faith, which seems to lend it credibility, in my view.
Statement of Faith of Third Council of Constantinople
This is quite long, but I’ll only quote part of it:
Wherefore this our holy and Ecumenical Synod having driven away the impious error which had prevailed for a certain time until now, and following closely the straight path of the holy and approved Fathers, has piously given its full assent to the five holy and Ecumenical Synods (that is to say, to that of the 318 holy Fathers who assembled in Nice against the raging Arius; and the next in Constantinople of the 150 God-inspired men against Macedonius the adversary of the Spirit, and the impious Apollinaris; and also the first in Ephesus of 200 venerable men convened against Nestorius the Judaizer; and that in Chalcedon of 630 God-inspired Fathers against Eutyches and Dioscorus hated of God; and in addition to these, to the last, that is the Fifth holy Synod assembled in this place, against Theodore of Mopsuestia, Origen, Didymus, and Evagrius, and the writings of Theodoret against the Twelve Chapters of the celebrated Cyril, and the Epistle which was said to be written by Ibas to Maris the Persian), renewing in all things the ancient decrees of religion, and chasing away the impious doctrines of irreligion. And this our holy and Ecumenical Synod inspired of God has set its seal to the Creed which was put forth by the 318 Fathers, and again religiously confirmed by the 150, which also the other holy synods cordially received and ratified for the taking away of every soul-destroying heresy.
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