I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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JimG:
Interesting point about the last judgment. Is its purpose only to ratify what we have already decided about ourselves? What then do we make of Jesus description of the last judgment in Matthew 25:31ff? Do we take this gospel description seriously?
The first judgment, individually before God, acknowledges our eternal destination - heaven or hell. Catholics believe in Purgatory, hence my use of the word destination. Hell, for those who “earn” it is immediate.

The second, or last judgment is when all come before God. As we “see” the eternity of each of His creations, it must be awesome. This last judgment comes at the end of “time”.

MrS
 
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JesusFreak16:
Hey I am not really hip to Catholic jargon… What
exactly is divination? Current state of Grace? Thanks, MariaG.

God’s Peace~ Lisa
divinations is like horoscopes and witchcraft and stuff like that.

To be in a state of Grace means to be repentant and forgiven of all your sins. You are in God’s grace.
 
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jimmy:
divinations is like horoscopes and witchcraft and stuff like that.

To be in a state of Grace means to be repentant and forgiven of all your sins. You are in God’s grace.
Thanks for the info, Jimmy. We don’t always see eye to eye, but you’re a nice guy. 🙂

God’s Peace~
Lisa
 
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JesusFreak16:
Thanks for the info, Jimmy. We don’t always see eye to eye, but you’re a nice guy. 🙂

God’s Peace~
Lisa
Thankyou JesusFreak, I are a nice girl too.🙂
 
Do you mean because you’re Protestant? I have no idea. I sincerely hope you are going to heaven, because to hope otherwise would put me on the hell express. The Catholic Church taught me this.

Being a Catholic raised in the south, I never knew there are Catholics, however misguided, who believe that non-Catholics go to hell just for being non-Catholic. This surprised me because I was condemned by fellow southerners to hell for being Catholic.

Gotta say though, that although the Sisters never got a chance to properly catechize me (a frequent complaint among baby boomers), they never, ever planted the seeds of hatered towards anyone. Their message was “God is love”.

And for this I am forever grateful to my Church. Thank God for the Sisters.
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Ozzie:
So it sounds like you turned to a church organization rather than Christ Himself to “fill your emptyness.” Christ is not the Church and the Church is not Christ. It is Christ Himself who gives eternal life, not any church. And the only life He gives to any sinner who comes to Him by faith is “eternal.” “Everlasting life” in Him (Jn. 3:14-18).

The passage you quote above is about working “outwardly” the salvation you already HAVE “inwardly.” To work “out” one’s salvation is not the same as working “for” one’s salvation. What you state above is essentially “for” your salvation and is erroneous. That’s why you think you cannot know if you’re saved (besides your church telling you that). But the BIBLICAL message, not Roman Catholic or Protestant, is very explicit. The true believer can know without a doubt that he/she IS forever saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Jn. 20:31; 1 Jn. 5:13; Rom. 5:1-2). To say differently is a different gospel. “Gospel” means “good news.”
St. Paul did not believe that he had already secured everlasting life in heaven. He does not talk as one that is “saved” and therefore guaranteed salvation.

1 Cor 9:24 “Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”
What would Paul be disqualified from? What is the prize?
**
Phil 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
What is there to fear if your salvation is already secure?

Rom 11:22 “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
What would they possibly be cut off from?


Matthew’s Gospel tell us that we must persevere to the end to be saved.
Matt 24:13 “But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

None of us, Catholic or Protestant should presume upon God’s mercy, (“Not then the kindness and severity of God”). We are all subject to sin and any one of us are capable of being disqualified, that is unless we endure to the end, working out our salvation with fear and trembling. There is no fear or trembling if we say, “I know for sure that I am going to heaven when I die!”. Many of us that falsely believe that we are secure will certainly be surprised in the end.

1 Cor 10:11 “Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”

Brothers and sisters, TAKE HEED! 🙂
 
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Ozzie:
So it sounds like you turned to a church organization rather than Christ Himself to “fill your emptyness.” Christ is not the Church and the Church is not Christ. It is Christ Himself who gives eternal life, not any church. And the only life He gives to any sinner who comes to Him by faith is “eternal.” “Everlasting life” in Him (Jn. 3:14-18).

The passage you quote above is about working “outwardly” the salvation you already HAVE “inwardly.” To work “out” one’s salvation is not the same as working “for” one’s salvation. What you state above is essentially “for” your salvation and is erroneous. That’s why you think you cannot know if you’re saved (besides your church telling you that). But the BIBLICAL message, not Roman Catholic or Protestant, is very explicit. The true believer can know without a doubt that he/she IS forever saved through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Jn. 20:31; 1 Jn. 5:13; Rom. 5:1-2). To say differently is a different gospel. “Gospel” means “good news.”
A couple problems Ozzie:
IF you knew that your faith would persevere throughout time then your presumption of being saved through faith in Christ might be true - unfortunately you don’t know the future. If you claim to we’ll all simply ignore you! We’re not far apart theologically, but it is probably better to say that you have confidence in your salvation based on your faith rather than knowledge of it. You might wish to check out the parable of the seeds for an explicit reference to people who had faith and then lost it.

I’m not sure what translation you use but let me quote a verse you used to support “knowledge” of your salvation:
John 20:31 NIV
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
  1. the “life” spoken of does not differentiate initial from final salvation - is this the starting point or the completion of salvation? It’s not clear from the verse. You are inserting “I will be going to heaven” where all that is stated is that you “may have life”
  2. “may have” is not the same as *definitely *having for all time
How would you reconcile all the admonitions regarding Christian behavior Paul gives in his Epistles to the various Churches? what’s the big deal if they are all saved anyhow?

How about this verse from 1 Pet 2:11

“Beloved, I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldly desires which wage war against the soul”

Hmmmm. Worldly desires can wage war on my soul. What the heck does that mean? What would happen if I lost that war?
 
“Not anywone who shout, ‘Lord, Lord’ will go to Heaven” (one of the epistles)
 
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JesusFreak16:
I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell.
I will tell you an honest and truthful answer but I think you will not accept it. The surest way to know you are on the right path is to follow what Christ began. The Catholic Church is what Christ began. Jesus did not begin Mormonism, Hinduism, Baptists, Lutherans and on and on … these were started by men. Personally I will stay with what Christ began and said the gates of hell would never prevail against it. Who am I to tell Christ what he began is not good enough.
 
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MrS:
Simply put, Catholics put the hope of their salvation in Jesus Christ, Our separated brethren have a new belief that often puts their hope of salvation in their belief. Luther needed to adapt this thinking due to his obsession with sin - hence he was a dung heap only covered with snow. Catholic thought (which most Catholics have not been taught) teaches the true regeneration of baptism, and the true reconciliation of confession.

We both desire the same thing…eternity in heaven. But The Church makes available all that Christ has given it. Only the Catholic Church has the full deposit of Faith. We believe we are saved only by Grace, through Faith, working in Love.
No, you’ve not put your faith in Jesus Christ, you’ve put your faith in the RC Episcopate. According to the Bible, baptism does not regenerate you, the Holy Spirit Himself does.

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done (this would include baptism and confession) in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:4-7).
  1. One is saved through Christ alone (through personal faith in Him).
  2. No works can save you.
  3. The Holy Spirit regenerates the believer.
  4. The believer is (not hopes to be) justified by grace.
  5. The believer is MADE an “heir” of eternal life.
Christ, through His once for all sacrifice, made available all that was needed for man’s salvation (2 Cor. 5:21). The true Church is made up of all those who have recognized their need for His sacrificial death on their behalf.

What about you, MrS? Will you put your faith in Christ alone?
 
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Ozzie:
No, you’ve not put your faith in Jesus Christ, you’ve put your faith in the RC Episcopate. According to the Bible, baptism does not regenerate you, the Holy Spirit Himself does.
Oh, and I suppose we believe that it’s the H2O per se that regenerates us; forget the fact that we use the water as a sacramental instrument to bring about the regenerative effect of Baptism by the Holy Spirit, as instituted by Christ… :rolleyes:
 
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Ozzie:
No, you’ve not put your faith in Jesus Christ, …
You’re not a Catholic, mate, why are you tellings us where we put our faith? We know for ourselves. We put our faith in Christ, alright. Oh, I forgot. Protestants know everything – even what other peoples believe. Better than them, in fact. :rolleyes:
 
I’m not a frequent poster here, though I do read a lot of the posts. One of the frustrating things I’ve noticed is that when a Catholic explains a position clearly to a protestant (Ozzie in this case). The protestant often ignores the explanation and continues to attack their ‘perceived’ understanding of the Catholic position.

Also, it strikes me as odd that Ozzie responds to the position by essentially claiming that Catholics are misinterpreting the Gospel. Didn’t Catholics write the bible? Weren’t some of the greatest Christian minds Catholic (Augustine, St. Thomas, etc.)? It begs the question…where did Ozzie get his interpretation of the Gospel? Was it divinely inspired to him alone??
 
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joelmichael:
It begs the question…where did Ozzie get his interpretation of the Gospel? Was it divinely inspired to him alone??
Probably. As a former Protestant (now in RCIA) I can say that some Protestants give themselves the authority to interpret scripture as they see fit under the belief that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. This is why I feel that it’s almost pointless to try and have this discussion with some Protestants. When I was in the throws of my anti-Catholicism you could not have convinced me of anything a Catholic said, even if they provided well-accepted historical sources.
 
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JesusFreak16:
So no one can “know without a doubt” that he/she is going to heaven? I hope you don’t believe that. I hope you know you are going to heaven.

God’s Peace~ Lisa
Hi Lisa,
I have to agree with nucatholic when he said, “Only God knows.” Because from the book of Luke 13:25 once the homeowner gets up and shuts the door. Then you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up for us!’ He will answer you, ‘I don’t know you or where you’re from.’

That is where faith comes in to play. We believe we are saved.

I have been baptized, repented , eaten of the flesh, received the holy spirit and dedicated my life to serving the Lord. All which are biblical teachings, all which are Catholic teachings.
 
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mrS4ntA:
No one ever said that the Church is Christ.

The Church is the Bride and Christ is the Bridegroom.

“… for Christ so loved the Church that he gave Himself up for her.”

“… and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

“*”

“To love Christ is to love the Church and to love her like He does.”

hehe… to use the same style…*
Jesus said that He is The Church. On the road to Damascus, when Paul had his conversion experience Jesus said “Why are you persecuting me?” Now Jesus is already dead, so he couldn’t literally be persecuting Him, but He says that just the same. What does that mean? That means that Jesus is The Church. He is the head, we are the body.
 
I have no idea whether or not you’re going to heaven. But I do know that your best chance for salvation is within the Catholic Church, the only Church founded by Jesus Christ. What do you do for spiritual nourishment without the sacraments, especially the Body and Blood of Our Lord? How do you know your sins are actually forgiven? Why would God Himself have come to earth as the man Jesus, suffer and die, be resurrected, and not provide to His closest followers, the apostles, a blueprint for salvation or the means to attain it, other than the Bible which wasn’t even compiled as such until the end of the 4th century and which is subject to many different interpretations? Witness the staggering number of Christian denominations. Didn’t the Church–the Catholic Church–precede the New Testament? Why did the early Christians use scripture readings and preaching in conjunction with the celebration of the Eucharist and not as a substitute for It? It’s the Church first, then the Bible, the most important written component of Catholic Tradition.
 
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Ozzie:
No, you’ve not put your faith in Jesus Christ, you’ve put your faith in the RC Episcopate. According to the Bible, baptism does not regenerate you, the Holy Spirit Himself does.

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done (this would include baptism and confession) in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:4-7).
This is an interesting analysis Ozzie - thank you. You are right to boldly defend what you believe without apology! If I might be so bold could I address some issues I am still unclear on?
  1. One is saved through Christ alone (through personal faith in Him). Again, is the salvation spoken of instantaneous, complete and permanent at the point of regeneration? The verse doesn’t make this clear. And if it is complete and permanent, why are we heirs in “hope of eternal life”? And once again, you have inserted a concept( “personal faith”) into a verse that makes no mention of it. In fact, if we’re to interpret literally we are all saved because of Christs work and the work of the holy Spirit and nothing else remains to be done - yet we know not everyone is going to Heaven…
  2. No works can save you.
    No works can bring you from total depravity to salvation - it required God’s initiative. Does Scripture anywhere talk about our behavior(works) playing any role in our salvation after regeneration? Again, why is so much of the Pauline letters directed at Christian conduct? James chapter 2 seems to point to this also.
  3. The Holy Spirit regenerates the believer.
    I agree almost 100%! You must, however, recall the times when Christ saved children through the faith of their parents
    (And also the centurians servant). This would seem to argue in favor of the faith of the believers being able to save those not yet capable of believing - no? There is no more gratuitous demonstration of God’s mercy than the regeneration of an infant through the faith of it’s parents in Baptism. And Christ himself did say," unless you are born…of water and the holy Spirit you have no life in you" Here the action of the holy Spirit and the “water” are treated separately - how do we make sense of this?
  4. The believer is (not hopes to be) justified by grace.
    Absolutely - and if we all died (involuntarily) at that point in time we would be in heaven for sure. The question, though, is what if, after being regenerated and richly blessed with the gifts of the holy Spirit, we don’t die and choose to ignore them? Are we still saved? Again, is there anything in the bible that tells us to remain and persevere in God’s grace otherwise we lose it?
  5. The believer is MADE an “heir” of eternal life.
    Notice how your personal theology interfered with a direct recitation of the verse? You left out the “hope” of eternal life because it doesn’t fit your theology. Hope doesn’t fit into the verse the way you want us to understand it.
Phil
 
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