I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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joelmichael:
It begs the question…where did Ozzie get his interpretation of the Gospel? Was it divinely inspired to him alone??
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Hello Joelmichael,
I read your profile, so I believe your questions above are rhetorical and make a great point.

Has it been your experience that many Protestants believe they have actually formed their own theological opinions and were not taught what they believe?

Personally, I know the biggest troubles in my life have come from forming my own theological opinions.
 
mark a:
Hello Joelmichael,
I read your profile, so I believe your questions above are rhetorical and make a great point.

Has it been your experience that many Protestants believe they have actually formed their own theological opinions and were not taught what they believe?

Personally, I know the biggest troubles in my life have come from forming my own theological opinions.
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Another reason why one needs the Magisterium of the Church :bowdown2:
 
Has it been your experience that many Protestants believe they have actually formed their own theological opinions and were not taught what they believe?
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mark a,

Thanks for the question.

I think many protestants that I talk to, of varying denominations, would say that what they know they learned from the Bible. I don’t think they usually fall back on any kind of teaching authority as an explanation of why they believe what they believe. A response akin to “its in the Bible” is pretty typical from my experiences. In all honesty, the root of this question, authority, is what caused me to come back to Catholicism.

I’ve considered this issue and I’ve concluded that the Catholic Church does have a legitimate claim of authority when it comes to the interpretation of scripture. In a nutshell, that is what it comes down to for me.

God bless you and all,

Joel
 
Hi Lisa,

Yes…we are all brothers and sisters of Christ.
Only God knows if you will go to heaven, but I do know that you need sanctifying grace to obtain a place in heaven. As the Catholic Church teaches:
Our soul in it’s natural state, isn’t fit for heaven. It doesn’t have the right equipment, and if you die with your soul in it’s natural state, heaven won’t be for you. What you need to live there is supernatural life, not just natual life. That supernatural life is called sanctifying grace. The reason you need sanctifying grace to be able to live in heaven is because you will be in perfect and absolute union with God and all sorces of life (Gal.2:19, 1 Pet.3:18)
Christ to Peter: On this rock I will build my Church!
I entrust to “YOU” Peter to hold the keys!
Christ gave the power to let people in and out of heaven to the Chruch.
There is no salvation outside of the Church, why? because there is no salvation outside of Christ 👍
 
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mrS4ntA:
That’s a bit too extremist and narrow conception of the Church’s teaching…
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Dear MrS4ntA,

I hope that you are enjoying as much as I am the irony of the fact that your displeasure with my summary of Church teaching is quickly followed by St. Maximillian Kolbe making an even more severe claim in your signature line. Apparently there is room in this Church for both the rigorous and the lenient, but St. Maximillian is decidedly in the former category, so I am hard pressed to see why you might be disappointed in my saying what you are glad to hear from St. Maximillian. :ehh:

:whacky:
 
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JesusFreak16:
I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
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Lisa, I was raised a Baptist and converted to Catholicism when I was 30. I have been Catholic for 13 years now.
I have never been told by the catholic church that all protestants were going to hell, however, I certinally WAS told by the baptist church that allCatholics were going to hell. that was made very clear in my protestant upbringing. Living in the south I have alot of fundementallist co-workers and friends, who hold the very same oppinion. For you to post here and accuse us of having a “youre going to hell” mentality is laughable.

One of the things that first impressed on me the truth in the Catholic church was the salvation dogma. If you will actually read the scriptute cited above in several very good posts it is clear that the Church’s teaching is scriptural. The other aspect of the Church’s teaching is one that you will probably deny, but it is that the church’s teaching is the same one that was believed by the fathers of the church 2000 years ago. It has been constant and unchanged.
 
GrzeszDeL,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”​

#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But I do give you extra points for the cool way you posted it with the links.
 
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JesusFreak16:
…How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
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Nobody reading this can possibley know this information precisely because we, as humans, are not omini-present. Only God judges us, not you or me.
I hope none, but there are bound to be some…
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Why do you say there will be some? Are you omni-present? Have you heard false things about Catholics? We can make educated guesses but only Jesus can judge us.
I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell.
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So, when did God die? When did you become God? Only Jesus can judge us and for us to ‘judge’ ourselves then we must therefore replace Jesus as God? Why do you automatically “assume” Catholics would lie to you?
“How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
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Please explain to me how you know something that Jesus reserves for Himself? Scripture teaches us “Hope” while you seem to preach “false assurance”? Please give me the verse that says we are saved BEFORE Jesus judges us. I have a Hope for salvation just as St. Paul wrote in Scripture. You have heard of St. Paul? Hope? Scripture?
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you…Lisa
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You are right, we “Love” you as our sister and “Hope” to see you in heaven. Our “Faith” is great and yours seems to be also.

Lisa,

You have made some comments and I look foward to reading more from you. You appear to be a good Christian and I would like to know where you got these ‘opinions’ of yours and how you support them.

Try reading 1 Cor 12 &13. The 3 greatest ‘gifts’ we have are ‘Faith’, ‘Hope’ and ‘Love’! The greatest of these is ‘Love’ which we have for you and I hope you have for us. If we (or you) are allready “SAVED” (in protestant terms), then why do protestants need ‘Faith’ or ‘Hope’? You see once we are judged by Jesus and the Father gives us His grace of salvation then we no longer need Faith or Hope. Once we are “saved” we only need ‘Love’ for ‘Love’ is forever. So if you are “saved”, then you no longer need “Faith” and you obviously never had “hope”? Your theology is is logically condridicting itself.

Uhm? Could you please show me any Bible version that deletes Faith and Hope which would proove you are saved? So if you are saved then you have no Faith or Hope? If you have Faith and Love, but lack Hope, then you are not saved and have just been missguided by the false prohets Jesus warns you about in Scripture.
 
Ozzie,

I think the following scripture verses affirm the regenerative nature of baptism:

ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

ACTS 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

ACTS 19:1-7
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all.

ACTS 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

MATTHEW 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

MARK 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

COLOSSIANS 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

EPHESIANS 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 
Ozzie,

It appears that you believe in “Once Saved Always Saved.”
I have compiled over sixty five verses of scripture that deny this teaching. If you are interested in them, please send me a private message and I will be glad to email them to you.
 
JesusFreak16,

No one “knows” if they are saved. Obviously, some Christian denominations teach that you can know that you have the “assurance” of salvation if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Unfortunately, this is not in keeping with scripture as seen in some of the previous posts.

Catholics have a moral certitude that they are saved but we do not claim to have a metaphysical certitude. Even Calvin who preached double predestination never claimed that a believer could know if they were one of the elect.

No Christian can imagine that the apostle, Paul, would be anywhere but in heaven. But even Paul said during his earthly ministry that, " I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me." Only God knows the hearts men. For us to claim that we know we are saved is at least in some way to claim equality with the mind of God. Unless God were to give an individual a direct divine revelation, a person cannot know if he/she will reach heaven.

Fortunately, God wants His children to be with Him in heaven even more than the children themselves. We rely on the love and mercy of God, but we must have a humble and penitent heart. When we sin we are like the prodigal son and we leave the household. To again be a member of the family of God, we must return repentant and in total surrender to the Father. God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son, Jesus. We have been purchased at a great price, and as a result there is no such thing as cheap grace. As adopted sons and daughters we must love God and do His will out of love for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the Pope made it clear that Heaven is open to (most) Protestants? I think the Catholic Church has made huge strides in recognizing the fellowship of all Christians, without glossing over doctrinal differences or surrendering the idea of the primacy of the Catholic Church.

I’ve always wondered how it is that so many people can be absolutely convinced that the religion they happened to be born into is the one and only true faith. And when intelligent, open-minded people DO convert, they don’t all come to the same conclusion as to what religion is the REALLY true one, now that their eyes have been opened (nor do they all become atheists). What is it that leads people to the conclusion that they’re assuredly RIGHT and everybody else is WRONG?

In the face of the overwhelming infinitude and utter mystery of God, all points of doctrine must ultimately seem pretty trivial, or so I would think. Rather than asserting that we possess some special access to truth which others lack,it would seem more appropriate to proclaim our total ignorance. Instead of clinging to a specific dogma, it might be better to offer ourselves up to the mystery.

How likely is it that God would make himself known to just one people, or reveal his truth in just a single book, geared to the thought processes of a particular language and culture?

Then again, what do I know from “likely”? This is God we’re talking about.
 
Hello,

I would just like to add that following the commandments is necessary for salvation. We are told this by the mouth of Christ, Himself, when He states, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

When we look at this as a logical statement (p implies q), we say that it is true because Christ told us so. If it is true then its contrapositive must also be true (not q implies not p) according to the axioms of mathematics. Thus the contrapositive, “If you do not keep My commandments, you do not love Me.” must be true.

Who would say that loving Christ is not a requirement for salvation? But loving Christ requires obeying Christ’s commandments. Hence obeying the commandments is required for salvation.

Therefore, I submit that we do not know at the current time whether we will obey the commandments in the future. Hence, we have no absolute assurace of our salvation.

God bless, and may Christ lead us all to eternal life with Him.
 
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Hesychios:
I find this extremely odd. No one can know the mind of God. Once we have come through the enthusiasm of giving our whole selves: heart and soul to Our Lord, we still have the reponsibility of living out that Faith.
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Actually, if you find what I said about salvation through faith in Christ “extremely odd,” then you’ve never truly understood the Biblical message of salvation. Yes, the believer has a responsibility to live out his faith, but “living it out” is not what saves him. "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, not as a result of works (in this case, not as a result of “living it out”), so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Paul goes on in verse ten to say that believers are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, not BY good works.

If “living it out” saves you then Paul could not have written, “For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED…” (past, completed). He would have said instead, “For by living out your faith you are BEING SAVED…”. But that’s not at all what he communicated regarding salvation. It is the RCC doctrine of salvation that is at odds with the Biblical, Pauline doctrine of salvation. I must adhere to the Word of God, not of men. You should too.
 
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MrS:
The first judgment, individually before God, acknowledges our eternal destination - heaven or hell. Catholics believe in Purgatory, hence my use of the word destination. Hell, for those who “earn” it is immediate. The second, or last judgment is when all come before God. As we “see” the eternity of each of His creations, it must be awesome. This last judgment comes at the end of “time”.
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There are great flaws in what you state above about the coming judgments, but I’m glad you pointed out that Purgatory is believed by RCs, implying that it is not a Biblical doctrine. The idea of Purgatory is outside of Biblical, divine revelation, i.e., extrabiblical.
 
martino said:
1 Cor 9:24 “Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” What would Paul be disqualified from? What is the prize?
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Like all the verses you quote, you take this one out of context. Salvation in the Bible is ALWAYS regarded as a GIFT, not a “prize.” Paul, in context, is talking about service, not salvation. Hence, the disqualification is in respect to rewards for a believer’s service (cf. 1 Cor. 3:7-8, 10-17), not the loss of one’s salvation. To the contrary, Paul did preach assurance of salvation through faith in Christ. He fully understood the cross.
Phil 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
What is there to fear if your salvation is already secure?
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“Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression meaning a humble frame of mind (cf. 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5). It has to do with fully understanding what it took on God’s behalf to save sinners by GRACE - the sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His own Son, the God-Man, Jesus Christ. “Fear and trembling” humility diminishes when a person takes his eyes off Christ and on himself to either gain or maintain salvation through his own merits - which is what you’re doing.

Rom. 11:22 and Matt. 24:13 have to do with eschatology, not soteriology. I don’t have room to make commentary on your out-of-context interpretations. You do a great disservice to Paul and his Gospel message by constantly taking him out of context. Paul’s great message in all his Epistles is salvation and justification by grace through faith in Christ alone. No one has written it more clearly than he. Invariably, the legalist always perverts and distorts his message because a pure grace gospel to a legalist is repugnant. Like the Pharisees, though very religious, theirs is actually a fleshly, prideful walk. The true believer is called to trust in Christ alone, the only One who could procure and secure salvation and guarantee the inheritance of eternal life.
 
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Philthy:
A couple problems Ozzie: IF you knew that your faith would persevere throughout time then your presumption of being saved through faith in Christ might be true - unfortunately you don’t know the future.
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I don’t need to know the future. My salvation is based on historical facts, not future “uncertainties” on my part: The birth, death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. The tomb is empty my good man. “He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction BY FAITH into this GRACE IN WHICH WE STAND” (Rom. 4:25-5:2).

There is nothing presumptuous about knowing you HAVE eternal life in Christ Jesus. Those who tell you it is presumptuous align themselves with him who tempted Eve in the Garden when he said to her, "Indeed, has God said…? (Gen. 3:1). We’re to believe God’s Word, not the word of a mere creature, human or angelic (see Gal. 1:6-10). It is always God-honoring to believe His Word. One dishonors Him, and causes others to stumble, when they don’t.
 
I’m a Protestant, I believe in Preservation of the Saints (sometimes pejoratively called “Once Saved Always Saved”), and I agree, no one can know whether or not they will be glorified in heaven.

After all, Scripture tells us of many people who would have thought they were going to heaven, only to “fall away”:

“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
–1 John 2:19

Those who leave God, never belonged to Him. Some will even do great things for God, calling on his name:

"Not everyone who says to me,‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
–Matt 7:21-23

Apart from supernatural revelation, we can never know whether or not we will persevere unto heaven. But the Son will lose none that the Father gives him. (cf. John 6:36-45)
 
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