I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[mrS4ntA]

GrzeszDeL:

Dear MrS4ntA,

I hope that you are enjoying as much as I am the irony of the fact that your displeasure with my summary of Church teaching is quickly followed by St. Maximillian Kolbe making an even more severe claim in your signature line. Apparently there is room in this Church for both the rigorous and the lenient, but St. Maximillian is decidedly in the former category, so I am hard pressed to see why you might be disappointed in my saying what you are glad to hear from St. Maximillian. :ehh:

:whacky:

Precisely as MariaG said: the Church teaches otherwise. The Cathecism stands as the proof. It’s true that, for us, salvation is bound to the Church’s Sacraments. But God, the author of Graces and the institutor of those Sacraments, is Himself not bound by them. He can save whomever He wants: those who genuinely seek goodness and Him, but “by no fault of his own” knows not Him and His Church. Oh, and it’s “the Church Triumphant”, without the [Catholic], in its original term.

 

[porthos11]

Ozzie:

Like all the verses you quote, you take this one out of context. Salvation in the Bible is ALWAYS regarded as a GIFT, not a “prize.” Paul, in context, is talking about service, not salvation. Hence, the disqualification is in respect to rewards for a believer’s service (cf. 1 Cor. 3:7-8, 10-17), not the loss of one’s salvation. To the contrary, Paul did preach assurance of salvation through faith in Christ. He fully understood the cross.

Salvation is both a gift and a prize. And contrary to what you think, we Catholics DO have assurance of salvation. But we also know that while we have been saved, we CAN still choose to reject it in the future. God never takes away our free will.

And YES, Paul IS indeed referring to disqualification from salvation. The Greek adokimos translates literally into “reprobate”: one who is rejected because of failing the struggle. If Paul is merely referring to service, then why bother to buffet his body and subdue it? Adokimos always implies outright rejection and even destruction. 1 Cor 6:9 clearly has Paul referring to a wreath that never withers. So you’re the one out of context. The only prize that never withers is salvation, and he can indeed be adokimos with regards to it.

“Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression meaning a humble frame of mind (cf. 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5). It has to do with fully understanding what it took on God’s behalf to save sinners by GRACE - the sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His own Son, the God-Man, Jesus Christ. “Fear and trembling” humility diminishes when a person takes his eyes off Christ and on himself to either gain or maintain salvation through his own merits - which is what you’re doing.

That’s true, but it still does not deny the fact that our salvation has to be worked out. No, we don’t teach salvation by works. But we do nned to cooperate in God’s grace. Grace is a gift, we’re free to accept or reject it. Whether you mean literal fear and trembling or deep respect and humiity, it is a command issued to us. And why? What is at stake if we disobey? If we’re already saved anyway, why bother to work it out, even according to your interpretation? In fact, what’s to keep me from completely becoming hedonistic?

Rom. 11:22 and Matt. 24:13 have to do with eschatology, not soteriology.

And since when have eschatology and soteriology been mutually exclusive? “Out-of-context” is a cop-out too often for Catholics and non-Catholics alike, but eschatology is not confined entirely to the end of the world. Eschatology also includes the end our our own world; our earthly existence.

Paul is referring to the Gentiles who have been grafted on to Christ yet he warns them to remain in God’s kindness otherwise, they would be cut off. Why is there a danger of being cut off? He writes to the Romans of the time, and the warning is real even then and there.

And the Letter to the Hebrews warns (10:26-27) that there are those who have received knowledge of the truth who can still sin and be subject to hellfire. You can relate it to those who received the Word but like the seeds that fell on rock, they can turn away.

Paul tells us again and again to take heed lest we fall, and he is writing to churches! Why the warning if once saved always saved? If once saved always saved, then there should. John writes to churches in Asia (Revelation1ff) what those who prove victorious WILL be robed in white (symbol of slavtaion; Rev 3:5). He warns Laodicea that he will spit them out for lukewarmness. And this is a church of Christians already! Don’t say Eschatology; it is indeed eschatological but these were realities of the first century. Even then, Jesus warned Christians of the possibility of being adokimos from him.

Being Catholic brings so much freedom.

 

[mrS4ntA]

Ozzie:

… when a person takes his eyes off Christ and on himself to either gain or maintain salvation through his own merits - which is what you’re doing.
…

Just my two cents:

I think you hugely misunderstand how we understand justification.

No, it’s not by works alone (or faith alone, for that matter), let alone our “own merits.” You can peruse any Catholic document, stare at our Cathesism for hours and you’ll not find that a Catholic teaching. That’s a common misconception. (seriously, what’s with Prots and I-know-your-faith-better-than-you-yourself-do attitude?)

Graces are freely given to us by God and by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. That much we agree on.

These graces, then – **if ** with free will (Christ’s sacrifice does NOT turn us into meat robots without free will!) we choose to accept and co-operate with – enable us to do good works voluntarily (not automatically, as Calvinists believe) in good faith. When you do, you co-operate with God’s salvific graces and you receive sanctifying grace.

God’s graces are there in both ends of the equation. We never leave works alone without faith or grace in one side of the equation.

Works and Faith, then, comes hand in hand. One cannot do without the other.

---

**Jas 2:18 ** But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
**Jas 2:20 ** But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
**Jas 2:26 ** For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

---

Peace,
S4ntA.

 

[mrS4ntA]

Another point:

This is specifically to counter Ozzie’s claim that we believe we are justified by our “own merits”.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."3Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

and many more…

As you can see, initial graces by God’s salvific works are reiterated again and again. Nowhere does it teach that men are justified by their “own merits.”

So you’re arguing against something which we do not believe… what a waste of time…

 

[JGC]

MariaG:

GrzeszDeL,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”​

#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But I do give you extra points for the cool way you posted it with the links.

Much as I have great respect for GrzeszDeL who is far more learned than I on a whole range of topics he simply does not accept the Catechism’s (a sure norm for teaching the faith JPII) position on this one. I’ve tried before.

envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/coverstory.html

 

[kayla]

Hi Lisa,
Boy…this post sure has opened up a BIG can of worms hey?
if you havn’t by now…please watch “Journey Home” on EWTN, monday nights at 7pm central time. it will deffenitly let you experience Catholic beliefs from a protestants view point!

 

[Ozzie]

mrS4ntA:

Graces are freely given to us by God and by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. That much we agree on.

No we don’t. There’s no such thing as “graces” (plural) given to us by God and Christ’s sacrifice. The BIBLICAL teaching is that it is BY GRACE that one is saved through faith…it is A GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8-9). Because of what Christ accomplished perfectly and completely on the cross (“it is finished”) salvation is bestowed on the believer BY GRACE. Not by “graces.” There’s no such thing as “salvific graces.” You are either saved, and thus by GRACE, or you are not.

In Rom. 3:23-24 Paul states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a GIFT by His GRACE (not “graces”), through the redempton which is in Christ Jesus.

You are either justified, and thus as a GIFT by His GRACE, or you are not. If salvation is not by GRACE, and grace alone, my friend, then it is by works, and works alone. You can’t have it both ways. When it comes to salvation, grace and works cannot commingle. You either, by faith, accept ALL that Christ has done on your behalf, or you reject it. God has made salvation: our justification and our reconciliation with Him, very simple, the “work” aspect of it being accomplished by Christ Himslef.

It is the legalist who distorts the simplicity of the Gospel. GRACE to him is repugnant. Hence, he changes “grace” into “graces,” and “GIFT” into “wages.” His gospel is no gospel at all.

 

[GrzeszDeL]

MariaG:

GrzeszDeL,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church disagrees with you…

But I do give you extra points for the cool way you posted it with the links.

Hey, “extra points” is more than I usually get, so I am grateful for the small favor…

 

[GrzeszDeL]

gnosys:

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the Pope made it clear that Heaven is open to (most) Protestants?

Definitely not; there are no Protestants in Heaven. Everyone who beholds the beatific vision is a member of the Catholic Church triumphant. There may be former Protestants in Heaven, but if they are in Heaven, they are Catholic by now.

 

[GrzeszDeL]

mrS4ntA:

Precisely as MariaG said: the Church teaches otherwise.

Fair enough, but if that is the case, then why do you post St. Maximillian’s quote in your signature line. Apparently you think St. Maximillian to be mistaken in his claim, and yet you trumpet it as a great truth; this seems rather odd to my mind.

 

[akaiser]

Dear Ozzie

You have such great faith in the Bible. May I ask how you believe the Bible came about historicaly. It just seems to me that if the Catholic Church has so much evidence that they were the church back then, then how can you argue with those who received it.

You are a man in love with Christ. We all love Him. This is His Church which he started. If you have any proof other wise, please show us.

 

[1962Missal]

Ozzie:

No we don’t. There’s no such thing as “graces” (plural) given to us by God and Christ’s sacrifice. The BIBLICAL teaching is that it is BY GRACE that one is saved through faith…it is A GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8-9). Because of what Christ accomplished perfectly and completely on the cross (“it is finished”) salvation is bestowed on the believer BY GRACE. Not by “graces.” There’s no such thing as “salvific graces.” You are either saved, and thus by GRACE, or you are not.

In Rom. 3:23-24 Paul states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a GIFT by His GRACE (not “graces”), through the redempton which is in Christ Jesus.

You are either justified, and thus as a GIFT by His GRACE, or you are not. If salvation is not by GRACE, and grace alone, my friend, then it is by works, and works alone. You can’t have it both ways. When it comes to salvation, grace and works cannot commingle. You either, by faith, accept ALL that Christ has done on your behalf, or you reject it. God has made salvation: our justification and our reconciliation with Him, very simple, the “work” aspect of it being accomplished by Christ Himslef.

It is the legalist who distorts the simplicity of the Gospel. GRACE to him is repugnant. Hence, he changes “grace” into “graces,” and “GIFT” into “wages.” His gospel is no gospel at all.

I’m really not going to run around in circles over whether grace may or may not be plural. Don’t even go there. However, I do wish to point out that, while “unmerited favor” certainly is part of the scriptural meaning of grace, it does not say everything.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

1 Peter 4:10: As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents.

Grace, within these passages, can be seen to be something more than just “unmerited favor”; it is supernatural life, strength, and assistance which God has placed within the believer.

Justin

 

[mrS4ntA]

Ozzie:

No we don’t. There’s no such thing as “graces” (plural) given to us by God and Christ’s sacrifice.
…

hhh… another missing vocabulary… it really makes discussion difficult…

 

[martino]

Ozzie:

Like all the verses you quote, you take this one out of context. Salvation in the Bible is ALWAYS regarded as a GIFT, not a “prize.” Paul, in context, is talking about service, not salvation. Hence, the disqualification is in respect to rewards for a believer’s service (cf. 1 Cor. 3:7-8, 10-17), not the loss of one’s salvation. To the contrary, Paul did preach assurance of salvation through faith in Christ. He fully understood the cross.

Ok, I would like to hear your explanation of how Paul seems to regard the heavenly glory so little that he seems only concerned with what you call some extra reward that is in addition to heaven itself. According to you he is only worried about being disqualified from some heavenly perk, according to the Church he is concerned simply with reaching heaven. It is not Paul’s understanding of the cross that I question, it is yours. He knows that if there is no pain there is no gain! He knows that there is a battle for souls, and take heed my brother, your soul is not yet secure, which is why you and I both ought to be working out our salvation with fear and trembling!

"Fear and trembling" is an idiomatic expression meaning a humble frame of mind (cf. 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 7:15; Eph. 6:5). It has to do with fully understanding what it took on God’s behalf to save sinners by GRACE - the sacrificial, blood sacrifice of His own Son, the God-Man, Jesus Christ. “Fear and trembling” humility diminishes when a person takes his eyes off Christ and on himself to either gain or maintain salvation through his own merits - which is what you’re doing.

We agree on the necessity of Grace, that is not in question. Even if we take your understanding of the phrase, “fear and trembling”, Paul is still telling us to **work out our salvation **with a “humble frame of mind.”

You grossly misrepresent the Catholic position of salvation. The Church has never taught that we can gain heaven by our own works independent of the salvific work of Jesus Christ. You are not playing fair if you insist on putting words in our mouth. It is very clear that Paul did not count salvation as something that is guaranteed to anyone, but rather something that we work towards by the Grace merited for us by Jesus Christ.

 

[Detroit_Sue]

MariaG:

GrzeszDeL,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church disagrees with you.

846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”​

#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

But I do give you extra points for the cool way you posted it with the links.

I was wondering when someone would get around to posting that. How bout let’s take it right from
Lumen Gentium ?

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.

(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.**

 

[GrzeszDeL]

JGC:

Much as I have great respect for GrzeszDeL who is far more learned than I on a whole range of topics he simply does not accept the Catechism’s (a sure norm for teaching the faith JPII) position on this one. I’ve tried before.

Come now, be fair. I do not consider my own position to be at odds with the position of the Catechism. I simply consider that some here are trying to read the Catechism apart from other relevant Church documents (like the Council of Florence or Unam Sanctam), and are thus arriving at sloppy interpretations of the Catechetical text. I assure you, however, that I could happily sign an oath that included the CCC passages cited above without reservation. I would be loathe to deny that “those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it… may achieve eternal salvation.”

 

[MariaG]

I think the biggest difference between Protestant and Catholic is what someone mentioned earlier, and from where the inability of some to acknowledge or comprehend the faith alone and faith with out works argument.

Protestant believe that a true faith will naturally bring good deeds. If you do not naturally do good things, you do not have faith at all.

Catholics believe that if you have a true faith, God will provide grace for you to do good deeds. Each and every good deed is a choice to keep following Christ. It is not a “natural” outflow of faith, but a choice to follow Christ each and every time. If you do not have good deeds, you have a dead faith.

Neither says good works will not be present in a true believers life nor does either one say you can earn your way to heaven.

Okay disclaimer: This view is the view of the Nazarene, Assembly of God and Evangelical Church I went to. It does not explain every Protestant view nor even every Nazarene, AoG or Evangelical church out there. But that is a whole different can of worms.

 

[larryo]

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the
Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being
saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be
saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).” “I am redeemed,” answers the Catholic,
“and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling
(Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2,
2 Tim. 2:11-13)–but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own
ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5). And I do all this as the Catholic Church has
taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.”

cin.org/archives/cinapol/199804/0183.html (very bottom)

And only God knows each person’s state…

I like your reply. Many Protestants seldom make the distinction between redemption and salvation. By His sacrifice on the cross, Jesus redeemed all mankind. His shed blood purchased our redemption from the original sin of Adam. It also provided all of the grace necessary for us to be saved, provided we have faith and keep His commandments. We are all redeemed, but now it is up to us to cooperate with God’s grace to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. And, yes, this means doing good works as evidence of our faith. For one to “know” that he is saved is presumption, the opposite sin of despair.

 

[Ecce_Homo]

I am interested in what our Protestant friends would say in response to post #55. While I realize there is not time for them to answer every argument (as they are outnumbered on this forum), I would like to hear some feedback if possible. So far, no one has touched it. God bless.

 

[1962Missal]

Ecce Homo:

I am interested in what our Protestant friends would say in response to post #55. While I realize there is not time for them to answer every argument (as they are outnumbered on this forum), I would like to hear some feedback if possible. So far, no one has touched it. God bless.

Some of our separated brethren, while not using such terminology, would separate the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity (love), and would really say that one is justified by faith alone, in the strictest sense.

Justin