I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[c0achmcguirk]

Hi Ecce, I will respond to Post #55.

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)…

Therefore, I submit that we do not know at the current time whether we will obey the commandments in the future. Hence, we have no absolute assurace of our salvation.

I pretty much agree with you.

The Bible teaches of those who appear to be born again, only to fall away. I quoted a few of the verses earlier: 1 John 2:19, and Matt 7:21-23.

I would say that these false Christians are the ones Jesus spoke of when he talked about the farmer sowing seed on the rocky places in Matthew 13:

Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. --Matthew 13:5-6

Later, Jesus explains what this means:

The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.–Matthew 13:20-21

The truth is, one can be a false Christian who is deceived into thinking they will persevere unto salvation.

You cannot know without a doubt, infallibly, whether or not you will be glorified when you die. You can have sufficient assurance that if you continue on the path, you are saved. This is the historic Protestant position.

Jesus, however, promises to be faithful to those who are drawn to him by the Father. True believers will be raised up on the last day and will persevere until the end. (John 6:36-45, John 10:25-29).

God bless,
c0ach

 

[Ozzie]

5. The believer is MADE an “heir” of eternal life.
Notice how your personal theology interfered with a direct recitation of the verse? You left out the “hope” of eternal life because it doesn’t fit your theology. Hope doesn’t fit into the verse the way you want us to understand it.

I won’t go back and forth with you regarding your other comments on the Scriptures quoted, but on your above accusation I will comment.

"…that being justified by His grace (not “graces) we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:7).

“Hope” in this context is not like one buying a lottery ticket with the “hopes” of winning. Or one lost at sea and every day “hopes” to be found. Though it has a connotation of expectation, it is not a wishful hope for something that may or may not happen, but instead an abiding hope based on the reality of one’s inheritance, now being in Christ. The “hope of eternal life” is in this case is the true believer’s confident expectation of the final, full manifestation and realization of that life which is already his possession (Jn. 3:16-18; 5:24). This is what it means to be “made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” So contrary to your accusation, “hope” in this verse, when understood in its true Biblical context, fits perfectly and consistently with all of Pauline theology. It is RC theology that veered off and has developed its own works related system. It is truly a different “gospel” than Paul’s (Gal. 1:8).

 

[Ozzie]

1962Missal:

Grace, within these passages, can be seen to be something more than just “unmerited favor”; it is supernatural life, strength, and assistance which God has placed within the believer.

Yes, but not in a salvation context. The context determines how the word is being used. Being “saved by grace” is far different than Steven being “full of grace.” The former is how one is saved according to “divine favor” through faith in Christ. The latter is the power of God’s “favor” working through the believer who is already saved by faith.

 

[Ozzie]

martino:

We agree on the necessity of Grace, that is not in question. Even if we take your understanding of the phrase, “fear and trembling”, Paul is still telling us to **work out our salvation **with a “humble frame of mind.”

Yes, we agree on the necessity of Grace, but we disagree on the sufficiency of Grace. Plus, RC’ism puts its own spin on “grace” (adding the unbiblical notion of “graces”) to conform to its idea of ecclesiastical authority.

Paul did say work “out” (or outwardly) your salvation. That is, the inward realities of one’s redemption and reconciliation to God through faith in Christ. But Paul never meant that to mean work “for” your salvation. To work “out” and to work “for” are very different indeed.

 

[1962Missal]

Ozzie:

Yes, but not in a salvation context. The context determines how the word is being used. Being “saved by grace” is far different than Steven being “full of grace.” The former is how one is saved according to “divine favor” through faith in Christ. The latter is the power of God’s “favor” working through the believer who is already saved by faith.

Would you say that, in this passage, it is by grace alone that St. Paul’s works are done?

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

Note that this work is subsequent to, and entirely dependent upon, justifying faith.

If you can say yes, then you have some idea of what Catholics mean by “gracious works” and, perhaps, can see that the idea is not a contradiction in terms. It is to such works that we believe James refers when he says that man is not justified by faith alone.

Justin

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Ozzie:

No we don’t. There’s no such thing as “graces” (plural) given to us by God and Christ’s sacrifice. The BIBLICAL teaching is that it is BY GRACE that one is saved through faith…it is A GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8-9).

Define what you mean when you say “faith” - Is it a devotion to the Lord with your whole heart, mind and soul, lived out in service to God? Or is "faith to you the momentary act of standing up at an altar call and “accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.” Because if you truly believe it is simply the latter that assures your salvation, then neighbor, I believe that you’re fooling yourself and you’re heading down the primrose path. It’s certaintly NOT supported by Scripture.

I suggest you read “Surprised by Truth” by Patrick Madrid. It’s eye-opening.

-Peace be with you.

 

[cazayoux]

JesusFreak16:

… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.

Lisa !

It’s been interesting reading.

I am curious to know what you believe about your sins committed after the day you were saved.

Do you no longer sin?
If you do still sin, is it ‘okay’ since you’ve already been saved?
If you do still sin, is it ‘covered up’ because of Christ’s once and for all saving act?
If you do still sin, does that mean you need to be saved again?

I find the conversation interesting, but have not seen how you (or other protestants participating here) regard sins committed after your salvation.

Thank you !!

michel

 

[mrS4ntA]

Michel,

I think Luther handled that:

*“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness”

“No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

“The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake.”

“your sin cannot cast you into hell”

“No sin can harm me” *

 

[luv_pis]

mrS4ntA:

Michel,

I think Luther handled that:

*“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness” *

*“No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” *

*“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.” *

*“The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake.” *

*“your sin cannot cast you into hell” *

*“No sin can harm me” *

Wow, those are grand statements from the great Reformist. To our Protestant friends, what are the biblical bases for those statements?

Let Love Reign in Your Heart, Peace Will Result! ^^

 

[Ozzie]

martino:

It is not Paul’s understanding of the cross that I question, it is yours. He knows that if there is no pain there is no gain! He knows that there is a battle for souls, and take heed my brother, your soul is not yet secure, which is why you and I both ought to be working out our salvation with fear and trembling!

“No pain no gain?” That theory may work for exercising the muscles of one’s body, but not for divine salvation. I am well aware of what it took to save me and, believe me, at times it causes fear and trembling within me. But on the other hand, it causes GREAT joy as well when I ponder on the demonstration of God’s magnificent love toward me through the sacrifice of His Son (1 Jn. 3:1).

To the contrary my dear friend, my soul is VERY secure now that I am *“in Christ” *resurrected. The only way my security would ever be shaken is if someone showed me the body of my Lord still lying and decayed in His tomb. But there’s absolutely no chance of that!!! The security of my soul rests completely in Christ resurrected (Rom. 4:25).

Do you believe Christ is resurrected, Martino? If so, then be at rest, dear brother. God, through Him, has accomplished and answered all the divine demands needed to procure and secure your (and my) salvation. That’s what Christ meant when He said on the cross, “It is finished.” And that’s why after His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection He ascended and *“sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” *(Heb. 1:3) to intercede on our (the believer’s) behalf as our our High Priest (Heb. 7:25) and Advocate before the Father (1 Jn. 2:1-2).

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

I don’t need to know the future. My salvation is based on historical facts, not future “uncertainties” on my part: The birth, death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. The tomb is empty my good man. "He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we HAVE peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction BY FAITH into this GRACE IN WHICH WE STAND" (Rom. 4:25-5:2).

There is nothing presumptuous about knowing you HAVE eternal life in Christ Jesus. Those who tell you it is presumptuous align themselves with him who tempted Eve in the Garden when he said to her, "Indeed, has God said…? (Gen. 3:1). We’re to believe God’s Word, not the word of a mere creature, human or angelic (see Gal. 1:6-10). It is always God-honoring to believe His Word. One dishonors Him, and causes others to stumble, when they don’t.

Thanks Ozzie - I guess this means that instead of addressing the points I raised to you in my first two posts that you will simply supply another bible verse and your interpretation of it? Thanks, but no thanks. That’s not really communication, nor is it evangelism.

Take care

Phil

 

[porthos11]

Ozzie:

I won’t go back and forth with you regarding your other comments on the Scriptures quoted, but on your above accusation I will comment.

"…that being justified by His grace (not “graces) we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:7).

“Hope” in this context is not like one buying a lottery ticket with the “hopes” of winning. Or one lost at sea and every day “hopes” to be found. Though it has a connotation of expectation, it is not a wishful hope for something that may or may not happen, but instead an abiding hope based on the reality of one’s inheritance, now being in Christ. The “hope of eternal life” is in this case is the true believer’s confident expectation of the final, full manifestation and realization of that life which is already his possession (Jn. 3:16-18; 5:24). This is what it means to be “made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” So contrary to your accusation, “hope” in this verse, when understood in its true Biblical context, fits perfectly and consistently with all of Pauline theology. It is RC theology that veered off and has developed its own works related system. It is truly a different “gospel” than Paul’s (Gal. 1:8).

No. You’re wrong.

Hope is NEVER on something that’s certain. That’s your own interpretation or the interpretation of fundamentalist pastors before you. It was never Paul’s interpretation. Hope is ALWAYS on something uncertain NEVER anything certain. Drop it, no one’s buying it.

"Hope that is is seen is NOT HOPE: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Rom 8:24 KJV).

Dare you say HOPE in this verse is NOT in its true Biblical context? Paul here is telling you to your face that hope is never on something that’s certain.

 

[mark_a]

gnosys:

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the Pope made it clear that Heaven is open to (most) Protestants?

Non-Christians too, with the same qualifiers. Correct?

gnosys:

I’ve always wondered how it is that so many people can be absolutely convinced that the religion they happened to be born into is the one and only true faith. And when intelligent, open-minded people DO convert, they don’t all come to the same conclusion as to what religion is the REALLY true one, now that their eyes have been opened (nor do they all become atheists). What is it that leads people to the conclusion that they’re assuredly RIGHT and everybody else is WRONG?

Great point. Reminds me of how Jesus viewed (some of) the Pharasees who were obsessed on the letter of the law.

gnosys:

Instead of clinging to a specific dogma, it might be better to offer ourselves up to the mystery.

I’m not sure I understand this.

 

[mark_a]

Ozzie:

The idea of Purgatory is outside of Biblical, divine revelation, i.e., extrabiblical.

Look out!!

 

[mayra_hart]

entrance to heaven is precede by a judgment: a judgment of what we have done in our live. in my own opinion i think that once we died an go to heaven god is going to receive us an sit us in a special movie theater were he is going to show us a movie of our live. in that movie it will show the good work and the bad things, then he will decided if he lets you in or if he send you to purgatory so ours souls can be purified. god bless you all

 

[joehar]

1. 
   ]…the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:7) *
   
   1. 
      *]*For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) ***
      
      **
      Romans 6:23b “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
      
      Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      
      Ephesians 2:8-9 say, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
      
      Purgatory doesnt exist …sorry

 

[ncgolf]

1. 
   

1. 
   
   Romans 6:23b “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
   
   Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
   
   Ephesians 2:8-9 say, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
   
   Purgatory doesnt exist …sorry
   
   Anyone in purgatory will be in heaven … therefore anyone in purgatory is saved. The only ones not saved are in Hell and we agree there is no hope for those souls. Hell and purgatory are 2 entirely different places. This piece of Catholic dogma does not in any way contradict scripiture, it only contradicts what you believe to be true. We believe those in purgatory are saved, though their souls are for a time unfit for the glory of heaven. You seem to believe that souls in purgatory are not saved.
   
   A little Catholic theology, the Catholic Church is actually 3 churches … Church Triumphant (those in heaven), Church Militant (those of us on earth) and Church Suffering (those in purgatory). You see we just dont believe our church exists on earth … it reaches everywhere God is.
   
   Unless you can disprove, through scripture, that purgatory does not exist then your claim of the non existance of purgatory is not true … it would be false.

 

[Ozzie]

Porthos11:

No. You’re wrong. Hope is NEVER on something that’s certain. That’s your own interpretation or the interpretation of fundamentalist pastors before you. It was never Paul’s interpretation. Hope is ALWAYS on something uncertain NEVER anything certain. Drop it, no one’s buying it.
"Hope that is is seen is NOT HOPE: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Rom 8:24 KJV).
Dare you say HOPE in this verse is NOT in its true Biblical context? Paul here is telling you to your face that hope is never on something that’s certain.

Actually, no I’m not wrong.

“Hope” in the Titus 3:4-7 passage is directly related to those who are justified by His grace and “made heirs” through Jesus Christ. The believer’s “hope” is in respect to his being made an “heir.” It would be the same if you had a very wealthy uncle and he put you in his will making you the legal “heir” of his entire estate. In a very real sense you now possess all that he has. Though the experiential reality has not yet occurred, nevertheless, the legal aspect of it has. Your “hope” to physically possess his estate is not based on an uncertainty, but the certainty of a legal document.
Ahhh, but you say, my uncle could change his mind. Yes, this is certainly true when you’re dealing with men, but we’re dealing with God, not men. Our inheritance is made certain through Jesus Christ, sealed by His shed blood, made heirs according to the promise of ETERNAL life.

The Apostle John alludes to it this way: “Beloved, NOW we are the children of God, and it has not appeared AS YET what we shall be. WE KNOW that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him, purifies himself, just as He is pure” (1 Jn. 3:2).

The passage you reference (Rom. 8:24) is saying the same thing. You must read it in context with verse 23 where Paul states that we are eagerly waiting for our adoption as sons - defining this to mean “the redemption of our bodies.” Though we (our souls) have been redeemed from the slave market of sin (never to return) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, the ransom price paid (Matt. 20:28; 1 Tim. 2:6), our bodies are yet to be changed, i.e., glorified. This is what Paul means by “we hope for what we do not see,” but then goes on to say in verse 25, “with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”

So you see, it is a “hope” for something that is now ours, not as an expectation of an uncertainty, but truly a certainty. WE WILL BE CHANGED (1 Cor. 15:51). This all has to do with being made an “heir” according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Ozzie]

Ok, PHILTHY, I’ve got some time, I will answer each of your questions based on Titus 3:4-7:

Q.1. One is saved through Christ alone (through personal faith in Him). Again, is the salvation spoken of instantaneous, complete and permanent at the point of regeneration? The verse doesn’t make this clear.

A. To the contrary, the passage makes it very clear: "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us… The fact that it’s past tense means it’s completed and permanent. Jesus Himself makes it very clear in Jn. 5:24 that those who believe in Him “do not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life.” Paul is writing to believers, and when he says, “He saved us…” he means believers. All Scripture verse must be interpreted not only in their immediate context, but within the context of the whole of Scripture.

Q. 2. Does Scripture anywhere talk about our behavior(works) playing any role in our salvation after regeneration? Again, why is so much of the Pauline letters directed at Christian conduct? James chapter 2 seems to point to this also.

A. No, Scripture nowhere talks about the role of behavioral works in the process of one’s salvation - if that’s what you’re asking. Yes, there is much written on the conduct of the saved, but this is based on the fact that they are saved, not trying to become saved.

Q. I agree almost 100%! You must, however, recall the times when Christ saved children through the faith of their parents

A. I know of no such instance.

Q. 3. (And also the centurions servant). This would seem to argue in favor of the faith of the believers being able to save those not yet capable of believing - no?

A. No! Absolutely not. The Centurion’s servant was healed, not saved. The Centurion’s did not ask Jesus to save his servant’s soul apart from personal belief, but that He would heal his servant from physical affliction. And He did.

Q. 4. And Christ himself did say," unless you are born…of water and the holy Spirit you have no life in you" Here the action of the holy Spirit and the “water” are treated separately - how do we make sense of this?

A. Jesus answers this Himself: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Jn. 3:6). They’re two different births. In other words, Jesus defines being born of “water” not as water baptism (baptism is not even mentioned in this passage), but born physically. One must be born physically and then born again spiritually. This passage says NOTHING about water baptism. Read it again, especially vss. 5-6.

Q. 5. Absolutely - and if we all died (involuntarily) at that point in time we would be in heaven for sure. The question, though, is what if, after being regenerated and richly blessed with the gifts of the holy Spirit, we don’t die and choose to ignore them? Are we still saved? Again, is there anything in the bible that tells us to remain and persevere in God’s grace otherwise we lose it?

A. Your hypothetical logic is based on the erroneous RC doctrine of “initial justification.” There’s no such teaching in the Bible. All true believers HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED (Titus 3:7; Rom. 5:1-2). A true believer is MADE RIGHTEOUS in Christ, he receives the abundance of grace (not “graces”), the GIFT of righteousness, and will reign in life through Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:17,19, see also 2 Cor. 5:21). RC’ism utterly fails to understand the power of God to save the sinner who puts his trust in the Person and work of His beloved Son (Rom. 1:16).

No, there is nothing in the Bible that tells one who is saved to remain and persevere in God’s grace - otherwise he loses it. Many legalists refer to the Heb. 6:4-8 and 10:29 passages, but they must be understood in their context, i.e., who the writer is addressing. The legalist also runs to James for refuge from divine grace, but James when understood properly cannot protect him.

In reference to what he stated in Titus 3:4-7 Paul says in verse 8: “This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I WANT YOU TO SPEAK CONFIDENTLY, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These thing are good and profitable for all men” (see also Eph. 2: 8-10, especially vs. 10).

 

[bengal_fan]

GrzeszDeL:

Definitely not; there are no Protestants in Heaven. Everyone who beholds the beatific vision is a member of the Catholic Church triumphant. There may be former Protestants in Heaven, but if they are in Heaven, they are Catholic by now.

said like this, i agree with you. but it seems you are fighting a battle of semantics. everyone who is saved is saved by Christ (the way,** the** truth, and the life) through the catholic church (the church He established), but that doesn’t mean they were part of that church (practically) here on earth. they might have been protestants on earth (or perhaps even a non-Christian religion), but when they enter (or if they enter) heaven, it is through Christ’s church. i think all the catholics here agree with this and this is the teaching in the catechism, but GrzeszDel you are saying it in a way that is confusing to some and actually causes some to see you as denying the catechism (as i’m sure you see them doing also) when it really all comes down to the way in which you are saying it.