I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[exrc]

[QUOTEPhilthy]

I don’t get it. **Why is my belief in JC as my Lord and Savior and my belief that God raised him from the dead insufficient for you? **

What specifically do you believe separates us? How do you know these differences aren’t simply “debateable issues” ? And don’t get too complicated - I’m sure you are aware that only 2% of “christians” have the desire or capacity to discuss some of the issues we discuss on these forums. Complicated theological understanding is not a prerequisite. You seem to be turning your back on the clear biblical directive: " For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised HIm from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 Which teaching of Christ do you feel contradicts this verse and how do you know how to judge others? Hey Dan, you don’t actually have to answer all the questions I posted here, I just want an answer to the top one which I bolded. The rest are questions to consider in answering it Do you see where you wrote " you will be saved"? You don’t believe that Phil. You believe that “you might be saved”. Jesus wrote those words through Paul. If you don’t believe them then you don’t believe in the same Jesus. This is just one of many verses that we wouldn’t agree on, pertaining to this important doctrine. This is essentially the problem that Paul was having with the galatians. They sought to be keep justified by the law not grace, as all RC’s do.

Sorry Phil, I can’t agree with you as long as you hold those views.

Your friend, Dan!

 

[exrc]

Des:

This is what the Douay-Rheims Bible says about this verse:

12 “Upon this foundation”… The foundation is Christ and his doctrine: or the true faith in him, working through charity. The building upon this foundation gold, silver, and precious stones, signifies the more perfect preaching and practice of the gospel; the wood, hay, and stubble, such preaching as that of the Corinthian teachers (who affected the pomp of words and human eloquence) and such practice as is mixed with much imperfection, and many lesser sins. Now the day of the Lord, and his fiery trial, (in the particular judgment immediately after death,) shall make manifest of what sort every man’s work has been: of which, during this life, it is hard to make a judgment. For then the fire of God’s judgment shall try every man’s work. And they, whose works, like wood, hay, and stubble, cannot abide the fire, shall suffer loss; these works being found to be of no value; yet they themselves, having built upon the right foundation, (by living and dying in the true faith and in the state of grace, though with some imperfection,) shall be saved yet so as by fire; being liable to this punishment, by reason of the wood, hay, and stubble, which was mixed with their building.

1Cor. 3:14 If anyones work, which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

 

[MariaG]

exrc,

I wish you would expand more. I truly am not following your short answers. When you talk about eating fruit are saying that is what Adam and Eve did, eat fruit? Do you truly think they were thrown out because they ate fruit or because it was diobedience to God?

Catholics believe the verses I quoted are speaking of spiritual death. We have taught this since the times of the Apostles through the leading of the Holy Spirit. What do you think they mean and why?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Catherine_S]

[QUOTEPhilthy]
Do you see where you wrote " you will be saved"? You don’t believe that Phil. You believe that “you might be saved”. Jesus wrote those words through Paul. If you don’t believe them then you don’t believe in the same Jesus. This is just one of many verses that we wouldn’t agree on, pertaining to this important doctrine. This is essentially the problem that Paul was having with the galatians. They sought to be keep justified by the law not grace, as all RC’s do.

Sorry Phil, I can’t agree with you as long as you hold those views.

Your friend, Dan!

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, **no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to. **
**
To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption," and this is something one can say only because one confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively **with our individual appropriation of that redemption.The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—**but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response. **

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s gracein a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). **While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—**either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave:** “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off**” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

**Shalom
**

 

[WBB]

Catherine S.:

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, **no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to. **

To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption,"** and this is something one can say only because one confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively **with our individual appropriation of that redemption.The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—**but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response. **

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s gracein a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). **While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—**either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave:** “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off**” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

**Shalom **

Nice post, but I am sure the protestants will rebuke it into the ground.

 

[Des]

1Cor. 3:14 If anyones work, which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

For those with the more perfect preaching and practise of the Gospel, “he will recieve a reward” (Straight to Heaven with perhaps a Full yet bigger Cup)

---

**15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. **
For those whose work was not perfect yet still being built on the right foundation will be still be saved “yet so as by fire” (Purgatory then later on to Heaven with perhaps a Full yet smaller Cup)

 

[exrc]

MariaG:

exrc,

I wish you would expand more. I truly am not following your short answers. When you talk about eating fruit are saying that is what Adam and Eve did, eat fruit? Do you truly think they were thrown out because they ate fruit or because it was diobedience to God?

First of all Maria, I would like to thank you for your graciousness. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by the seemingly insurmountable opposition. I appreciate your kindness. Even though we disagree on most everything.

I suppose I can get a little callous with my responses. I’m really not attacking people, only doctrine that I believe is evil. Please understand. I love the people, but I hate the system that I believe is holding them in bondage as it did me. I know you wouldn’t understand that coming from a protestant background.

Getting back to the matter at hand,
Yes it is the fruit which Adam ate. Is not eating a stolen gumball disobedience also, and on the same level?

Catholics believe the verses I quoted are speaking of spiritual death. We have taught this since the times of the Apostles through the leading of the Holy Spirit. What do you think they mean and why?

Give me an example of an early church father giving an exegesis on this verse.

God Bless,
Maria

You also, Your friend Dan!

 

[exrc]

Catherine S.:

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, **no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to. **

To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption,"** and this is something one can say only because one confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively **with our individual appropriation of that redemption.The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—**but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response. **

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s gracein a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). **While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—**either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave:** “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off**” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

**Shalom **

Catherine, how long have you been RC?

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

Are you sure about this Ozzie? We don’t need to confess our sins?

For the sake of being re-justified before God? Absolutely! 1 Jn. 1:9 is the only place in the N.T. Epistles that speaks about the confessing of sins in respect to soteriology (James mentions confessing our sins one to another). But the backdrop of John’s letters is the false teachings of the Gnostics who taught against the Incarnation of Christ because they believed that deity cannot unite itself with anything material (all material being evil), such as a material body. They believed that knowledge is superior to virtue and therefore denied even the idea of personal sins, hence, the need for a physical, substitutionary, blood sacrifice as a propitiation for the sins of the world (2:2). John, using the personal pronoun “we” only by personal example, says in 1 Jn. 1:8 that “If we say that we have no sin (as the Gnostics claim), we are deceiving ourselves, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.” Thus describing not a true believer, but one deceived by the Gnostics who makes God out to be a liar, proving that His word is not in him (1:10). But "if we confess our sins (that is, agree with the gospel message that ALL have personally sinned and fall short of the glory of God) He (God) is faithful (i.e., to Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross), and just (legally righteous because of the cross) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness (1:9).

John 1:9 is not addressing believers. A true believer, whether in the John’s day (influenced by Gnostic teachings), or in this present day, has recognized that sin is in him and has confessed (agreed with God) that he is a sinner in need of redemption through Christ’s death on the cross. True believers are nowhere required in Scripture to live out the rest of their lives confessing sins and moment-by-moment receiving forgiveness from God based on their personal confessions. That is an out-of-context interpretation of Jn. 1:9, and you will never find that teaching in any of the N.T. Epistles. It is the unbeliever that must recognize that sin is in him, confess (agree with God) that he has personally sinned, believe in Jesus Christ as the one, final Sacrifice for his sins, and through that faith receive, once for all time (based on the finished work of Christ on the cross), complete forgiveness and cleansing of sins from God.

Now in respect to believers and sin John goes on to say, “My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins…” (1 Jn. 2:1-2). Advocate is a legal term signifying a friend at court. He speaks before the Father on behalf of all the redeemed through His blood (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13-14). And He being the “propitiation” for our sins, the wrath of God is diverted because of Him. And there is enough propitiation through Christ’s shed blood, if only the world would turn to Him by faith.

True believers are not required to constantly confess sins in order to receive ongoing forgiveness, but are exhorted to shun sin and to “walk in a manner worthy of the calling” with which they have been called (Eph. 4:1; 5:1, 8; 1 Thess. 2:12. In other words, they are to walk as who they are, “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2).

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

I’ll say this as charitably as I can. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is absolutely no purpose in warning any Christian about anything if there is no danger of losing salvation.

There sure is my friend. General warnings are not in the context of an individual believer losing his salvation, but the danger of eventually losing the basic gospel message of salvation itself through distortion. Remember, these first generation believers were living at the beginning of Christianity. They had a responsibility to maintain a pure faith, a pure gospel message for the next generation. And in that light, loss of salvation was possible, not for the believers to whom the warnings were immediately written, but subsequent generations who would never hear the true gospel message of GRACE if they allowed that message to become distorted and perverted by false teachers

That’s why Paul came down heavily on the Galatian believers which on the surface seemed like a minor offense, i.e., submission to circumcision. The act of getting circumcised itself was not the great offense to the gospel, but following after the teachings of the legalists who denied the sufficiency of Christ’s cross to save perfectly, completely and eternally. Paul says to them, “You were running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth” (Gal. 5:7). To the Apostle Paul it was the cross that was the core, the framework , the substance of true faith. “But I brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of THE CROSS has been abolished” (5:11). From the beginning, and to this present day, the simple but powerful message of the cross to the legalist is a stumbling block.

“But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (6:14).

Paul uses strong words against the legalists who worked amongst the Galatians to distort the message of the cross and rob them of the freedom they had in Christ: “Would that those who trouble you would even mutilate themselves” (cf. Deu. 23:1).

Addressing the Galatian believers themselves he writes, “For you were called to freedom brethren (cf. 2:4),; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another” (this is the meaning behind Gal. 5:6).

RC’ism recognizes the historical crucifixion of Christ, but denies it as the basis and power of God to save forever the one who puts his faith in Christ alone (Rom. 1:16). That’s why I challenged you to check your own teachings, and that of your church, Pax. Instead of going through God’s Word and randomly extracting verses which you think militate against the sufficiency of Christ’s cross to forever redeem and reconcile the one who turns to Christ by faith alone, try reading it from the Biblical viewpoint that the eternal purposes of God were actually met and realized through the cross of Christ. That the cross is not just some historical fact or a religious symbol, but that it is the grounds for God to bestow on all true believers the free gifts of salvation (Eph. 2:8), eternal life (Rom. 6:23), and justification (Rom. 3:24) at the moment of belief.

 

[exrc]

Des:

For those with the more perfect preaching and practise of the Gospel, “he will recieve a reward” (Straight to Heaven with perhaps a Full yet bigger Cup)

I agree

---

---

15

*** If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
For those whose work was not perfect yet still being built on the right foundation will be still be saved “yet so as by fire” (Purgatory then later on to Heaven with perhaps a Full yet smaller Cup)
" But only as one who has passed through the fire" without rewards.( Straight to heaven without rewards)

Your friend ,Dan!

 

[exrc]

Ozzie:

For the sake of being re-justified before God? Absolutely!

Do you mean absolutely… not? I hope so.

1 Jn. 1:9 is the only place in the N.T. Epistles that speaks about the confessing of sins in respect to soteriology (James mentions confessing our sins one to another). But the backdrop of John’s letters is the false teachings of the Gnostics who taught against the Incarnation of Christ because they believed that deity cannot unite itself with anything material (all material being evil), such as a material body. They believed that knowledge is superior to virtue and therefore denied even the idea of personal sins, hence, the need for a physical, substitutionary, blood sacrifice as a propitiation for the sins of the world (2:2). John, using the personal pronoun “we” only by personal example, says in 1 Jn. 1:8 that “If we say that we have no sin (as the Gnostics claim), we are deceiving ourselves, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.” Thus describing not a true believer, but one deceived by the Gnostics who makes God out to be a liar, proving that His word is not in him (1:10). But "if we confess our sins (that is, agree with the gospel message that ALL have personally sinned and fall short of the glory of God) He (God) is faithful (i.e., to Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross), and just (legally righteous because of the cross) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness (1:9).

John 1:9 is not addressing believers. A true believer, whether in the John’s day (influenced by Gnostic teachings), or in this present day, has recognized that sin is in him and has confessed (agreed with God) that he is a sinner in need of redemption through Christ’s death on the cross. True believers are nowhere required in Scripture to live out the rest of their lives confessing sins and moment-by-moment receiving forgiveness from God based on their personal confessions. That is an out-of-context interpretation of Jn. 1:9, and you will never find that teaching in any of the N.T. Epistles. It is the unbeliever that must recognize that sin is in him, confess (agree with God) that he has personally sinned, believe in Jesus Christ as the one, final Sacrifice for his sins, and through that faith receive, once for all time (based on the finished work of Christ on the cross), complete forgiveness and cleansing of sins from God.

Now in respect to believers and sin John goes on to say, “My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins…” (1 Jn. 2:1-2). Advocate is a legal term signifying a friend at court. He speaks before the Father on behalf of all the redeemed through His blood (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13-14). And He being the “propitiation” for our sins, the wrath of God is diverted because of Him. And there is enough propitiation through Christ’s shed blood, if only the world would turn to Him by faith.

True believers are not required to constantly confess sins in order to receive ongoing forgiveness, but are exhorted to shun sin and to “walk in a manner worthy of the calling” with which they have been called (Eph. 4:1; 5:1, 8; 1 Thess. 2:12. In other words, they are to walk as who they are, “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2).

If I could type with more than one finger I would have said the same thing.

Thanks ozzie for being true to the gospel of our beloved Christ!

Bless you my brother! In love Dan!

 

[Des]

I agree

" But only as one who has passed through the fire" without rewards.( Straight to heaven without rewards)

Your friend ,Dan!

I only refer to this verse as one that backs up purgatory. The fire representing the fire or pains of Purgatory. Not one that proves loss of salvation. Sorry, I thought you understood that.

 

[Ozzie]

Catherine S.:

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference as far as salvation is concerned how you live or end your life.

As I said to another who previously made this kind of slanderous statement: This is a bold face lie!! You slander Protestants like some of the Romans slandered the Apostle Paul because he also taught salvation by grace through faith alone (Rom. 3:8). I could just as easily throw this kind of slanderous statement back at RCs and claim that they teach that one can live his life in any sinful vice he desires as long as he practices the sacrament of penance. Would this be true to RC doctrine, Catherine?

To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption," and this is something one can say only because one confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption.

Show me in Scripture where it is taught that an individual “appropriates redemption,” or where redemption is ever contingent on how an individual “appropriates” this subjective side of redemption.

The Bible reveals that redemption is the work of Jesus Christ alone. And that work He did completely and perfectly. You have nothing to do with that work either objectively or subjectively (there’s no such thing, anyway). That finished work can only be applied to the believer at the time of personal belief; no one need finish what Christ already finished 2000 years ago. That notion is totally unbiblical (unless you can prove otherwise).

ROM 3:24 “…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus”

1COR 1:30 “But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.”

COL 1:13 “For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

 

[Ozzie]

exrc:

Do you mean absolutely… not? I hope so.

It was in response to him asking if I really thought Christians did not need to confess sins. So I responded, “absolutely.”

If I could type with more than one finger I would have said the same thing.

Injury??? I’m not the best typer even with all my fingers. It would be nice to have a personal editor to check for errors.

Thanks ozzie for being true to the gospel of our beloved Christ!

You too, bro.!!! It was for freedom that Christ set us free. It is amazing how RCs always state that “Protestants” have no unity. Yet it is constantly demonstrated that we have unity in our Lord Jesus Christ and the joy of our shared salvation through faith in Him alone. They get unity confused with conformity. Christ did not pray for conformity. That, through history, has proved dangerous to the preservation of a Biblical Gospel message concerning Christ and salvation through Him BY grace through faith alone. Enter the “Reformation.”

I often think, you must feel greatly blessed now being completely free of religious legalism and knowing now who you are IN Christ. My joy is with you, bro.!!! (jumping up and clicking heals). What a joy to completely rest in Him!

 

[Catherine_S]

exrc:

Catherine, how long have you been RC?

exrc
I have been a Catholic since 6 weeks after my birth---- for 63 + years and I will be a Catholic until the grave !! Jesus Christ** is** my Lord and Savior. It is a long process dieing to self so that His Holy Spirit may slowly transform us into what our loving Father ment us to be. It will never be completed while we are on this earth…we are only on the way…but that in itself is a joy. **We in turn must learn to love Him in return, in deep and sincere gratitude. Following His laws, learning to love others and co-operating with His grace for without Him we can do nothing. **In Him–With Him and Through Him. Praise Him forever !!!
Shalom

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

General warnings are not in the context of an individual believer losing his salvation, but the danger of eventually losing the basic gospel message of salvation itself through distortion. Remember, these first generation believers were living at the beginning of Christianity. They had a responsibility to maintain a pure faith, a pure gospel message for the next generation. And in that light, loss of salvation was possible, not for the believers to whom the warnings were immediately written, but subsequent generations who would never hear the true gospel message of GRACE if they allowed that message to become distorted and perverted by false teachers

]

Your idea about the warnings in the apostolic letters of the NT is neither biblically or historically plausible. The above quoted proposition is strictly of your own making. The warnings were given to Christians in the local churches and the warnings applied to them.

The apostolic warnings were directed to contemporary Christians and to us and explicitly indicate that salvation can be lost. In 2 Peter 2:20-22 we read, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

Also in Hebrews 6: 4-8 it says, **"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, ** since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."

And again in Hebrews 10: 26-31
"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

These verses are like all the other verses quoted to you. They apply to all Christians. “The saved” can lose their salvation. Over and over again, scripture makes it clear that “once saved always saved” is simply not true. In 2 Timothy 4:3 it says, " For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings," The teaching of once saved always saved is one of those doctrines that sounds great and very attractive, but it simply isn’t biblical. It’s a feel good warm and fuzzy idea for itching ears, but it is not the truth.

 

[Catherine_S]

Pax:

These verses are like all the other verses quoted to you. They apply to all Christians. “The saved” can lose their salvation. Over and over again, scripture makes it clear that “once saved always saved” is simply not true. In 2 Timothy 4:3 it says, " For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings," The teaching of once saved always saved is one of those doctrines that sounds great and very attractive, but it simply isn’t biblical. It’s a feel good warm and fuzzy idea for itching ears, but it is not the truth.

 

[Des]

Give it up Pax. Ozzie is too far gone to even comprehend the truth about salvation. I’m sitting back laughing at all this rhetoric he’s throwing at you. He takes a verse, such as the one he connects the gnostics with and thinks he can explain exactly what John is talking about by putting his own spin on it. "Oh, since the gnostics thought…blah blah blah, then John meant…blah blah blah. He refuses to see it for what it is.
It is both laughable and disturbing at the same time.

And as for unity. When it comes to morality questions such as homosexuality, abortion, birth control, once saved always saved, divorce, etc. etc. etc. there is zero amongst “all” the Bible only believers. Just believing in basic doctines about the Trinity and His dying for our sins just wont cut it. That isn’t unity. For us Catholics, at least we know when something is intrinsically evil or not. I know a guy who bounced from church to church cause what they preach doesn’t agree with his reading of the Gospel. Boy, i’m glad i’m not in his shoes.
.
And when he talks of bringing us out of the Catholic Church he’s only kidding himself. The Catholics here are all too well grounded in our faith to fall for such nonsense. We aren’t the Catholics who know nothing about our faith and easily led away like sheep to the slaughter such as the ones who claim to be so only by name yet don’t even know who the Pope is. Those so called Catholic are the only ones that may fall for his heresy.

Anyways Pax, I envy you to have such patience with this fellow, even when the outcome will most likely be the same.

God Bless.

 

[ANWK]

Hi Ozzie,

This is truly a long thread, I must admit I only read the first few and last few pages, but I would like to clarify just one point with you.

I think you mentioned that Jesus said that those that believe will have eternal life, while those that do not are already condemned.

My question is this (I will break it into a few parts to make it easier)

1. If I believe truly in Jesus at a point in my life, say right now, and I accept Him as my Lord and Saviour, can I deliberately choose not to believe in Him and mean it, at some time in the future?
2. If I can do that un-choosing, can I still be saved?
3. If I can’t un-choose my choice for Jesus, where is that free will that God gives to all of us?

Just curious. Thanks.

ADRIAN