I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[exrc]

WBB:

Spoken like a true protestant. When you can’t argue, you resort to name calling and condemning people as unsaved, because after all, God Almighty let’s you make the distinction as to who is saved or not. Thank heaven salvation doesn’t rest in your hands.

So do you understand that your assumption about protestant theology is incorrect? Or, will you do what you accuse me of, not being able to argue?

Love Dan!

 

[KLStevens]

exrc:

Believers cannot commit this sin, only unbelievers. It is the blocking of the Holy Spirit from your regeneration. I learned this from a RC priest that I didn’t even like.

exrc

Where does it say that ONLY UNBELIEVERS CAN commit that sin? It doesn’t.

And according to your Once Saved Always Saved, (and the person Ozzie spoke about earlier) what about the one who after accepting Jesus and being saved, rejected Him and no longer believed?

"If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS SACRIFICE for sins BUT A FEARFUL PROSPECT OF JUDGEMENT AND A FLAMING FIRE THAT SI GOING TO CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES"
–Hebrews 10:26

 

[exrc]

Pax:

Read a few different translations of the bible concerning mortal sin. Some use the word “deadly” and some say “unto death.” This means that some sin is deadly and some is not. You do not know scripture or refuse to accept it.

Pax,
You remind me of a man who is looking through the ocean to find a glass of water. Give up Pax, and leave her. She’s like a millstone around your neck. Can’t you feel it??

Name one sin that doesn’t lead to spiritual death.

Your friend exrc

 

[WBB]

exrc:

So do you understand that your assumption about protestant theology is incorrect? Or, will you do what you accuse me of, not being able to argue?

Love Dan!

My understanding of protestant theology comes from years of being a protestant. I am a convert to the Catholic Church from protestantism, so to say that I don’t understand protestant theology is wrong. I do not reject what is true in protestantism (because that which is true in protestantism came from the Catholic Church). I reject the reductionist theology that protestants hold whereby they reject millenia old teachings of the Church which is Christ’s Body simply because those truths are not outlined with the sparkling clarity that today’s society demands. Read John Henry Cardinal Newman’s writings and you may understand why I came to the conclusion that I did about protestantism.

Don’t think that signing your post, “Love Dan!” makes you charitable. I know what you are all about from your previous posts to me and others where you imply that we are not saved or call us names.

 

[KLStevens]

montanaman:

Here’s a funny thought on which I might be mistaken, but think about it: How could Martin Luther have dropped the deuterocanonicals in 1517 if the Church added them in 1546?

Maybe my dates are wrong, but if I’m even remotely correct, then at the very least, the Protestant argument that the Church added the books in 1546 will have to be modified. They’ll have to find a time before the Council of Trent where the Church “added” these books. So, I wonder when that could be…

Sorry to sidetrack the debate. Carry on…

The Council of Trent reaffirmed the books of the Bible that had been in use by the Catholic Church in response to the edited edition made by Luther.

If you read any of the Catholic Church writings before Trent you will see that the books Luther rejected had been used by the Church prior to Trent. And also used by the WRITERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Please see: Where We Got The Bible by Henry G. Graham

 

[montanaman]

Yes, I know. That’s why it’s ludicrous to say that we “added” them. I know they’ve been reaffirmed wince the fourth century, but Protestants don’t seem to get it. Like me until just now, they gloss over the inconsistency…

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

Salvation itself is NEVER regarded as a “reward” in Scripture.
I don’t disagree
I’ve said this many times before and it zips right over the legalist’s head. Contrary to the word that comes out of Rome
salvation is ALWAYS regarded as a “gift” in God’s Word (Eph. 2:8-9). How could anyone be “rewarded” salvation if ALL the work for salvation was accomplished and completed perfectly by Someone else? And you know who that Someone else is! All are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

If you have made a point other than the obvious it has eluded me. The reward concept was introduce by Dan to describe the consequence of not confessing our sins. He said we are saved, but that our HEAVENLY REWARD is diminished. What exactly that means eludes me. If you have a gripe take it up with him - it’s his biblical theology, not mine.

The failue to confess a sin does not have eternal consequences.

Does anything have eternal consequences? Does anything have etenal consequences after being “born again”?

It’s impossible to confess every single sin since sins are greater than just the overt action.

False. Just confess the overt sin and all aspects related to it of which you do and don’t know.

Sins are not the issue this side of the cross. The Gospel message is not do not sin and be saved, or, confess your sins and be saved, but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved (Jn. 3:14-18; Titus 3:4-7).

Are you saying that the Gospel message doesn’t contain admonitions against sinning? I didn’t think so. Sin is exactly the issue on this side of the cross - Christs cross is meaningless without it.

see next post…

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie

Philthy

Eternal “rewards” (not his salvation) are based on a Christian worker’s LABORS here on earth in this present life, not confessing or not confessing sins - read 1 Cor. 3:8-15.

I’ve read it - its not as clear as you’d like to say it is.
So just how “low” can Heaven get as a result of imperfect LABORS? Will I be perfectly happy with imperfect Heavenly reward?

To apply these verses in 1 Cor. to the fictional place called “Purgatory” does violence to that text.

Violence? Hardly. “…he will be saved, but only as through fire…” Where’s the violence? In fact, one thing that’s clear from the passages is that salvation is viewed as a future event, not something in the present.

God had His Judgment Day on all of man’s sins, and that took place 2000 years ago on a wooden cross. Jesus Christ took the heat in our stead. That’s why it’s called a substitutionary sacrifice and He’s called the “Lamb of God.”

Your analogy falls a little short. The Lamb of God had to be eaten to be efficacious. And I don’t mean figuratively eaten.

The Apostolic message that has gone out into the world since then is to BELIEVE in His Son, and whoever believes HAS eternal life.

Now we can return to the criticism you layed on me when I explained my feelings on salvation and free will to Dan. I don’t disagree with what you are saying above. I think it’s less believable however, that God, knowing from all eternity who will be saved makes us “believe” in His son. And I mean Makes as in it’s His Grace that causes us to “believe”. When you give that some serious thought, it’s completely illogical. What exactly is the point of the human being? Was there a chance we might not be saved? When God created us in “his image” did that mean we had the ability to remain autonomous in some respects to our detriment but that it also gave us the ability to love in a manner which no other creature can and therefore glorify God allthemore? I think we’re pretty clueless on such issues.

It’s that simple, Phil, and you must begin there or you have not begun at all.

Agreed - but is beginning there the beginning only or the end as well?

Hey Ozzie - can you and I agree right here and now never to insult one another verbally? I know you take a lot more heat than I do and that probably makes it harder for you, but I honestly can’t feel good about exchanging ideas if it will lead to hardness of heart - whether mine or yours. There’s really no need to be angry. As I told you in one of the first posts we ever exchanged “you are right to boldly profess what you believe…” I still believe that, and welcome it, but let’s do it like Jesus is watching over our shoulders (even if it doesn’t affect our salvation!) - I believe He is.

Phil

 

[Catherine_S]

WBB:

My understanding of protestant theology comes from years of being a protestant. I am a convert to the Catholic Church from protestantism, so to say that I don’t understand protestant theology is wrong. I do not reject what is true in protestantism (because that which is true in protestantism came from the Catholic Church). I reject the reductionist theology that protestants hold whereby they reject millenia old teachings of the Church which is Christ’s Body simply because those truths are not outlined with the sparkling clarity that today’s society demands. Read John Henry Cardinal Newman’s writings and you may understand why I came to the conclusion that I did about protestantism.

Don’t think that signing your post, “Love Dan!” makes you charitable. I know what you are all about from your previous posts to me and others where you imply that we are not saved or call us names.

WBB

"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught;** avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).**

Shalom

 

[Philthy]

exrc:

Phil,

Did you see my last post to you?

I did Dan and responded to it yesterday but apparently it didn’t go through - I was at work jumping in and out between seeing people and I thought it transmitted.

I owe you an apology. I have been baggering you for several posts to tell me what the “eternal consequence” of not confessing our sins is. I thought when you originally answered with “C” that that meant you were going to Heaven with no lessening of Heavenly reward, when, in fact, you were saying that you DID believe that your Heavenly reward was diminished. My fault - forgive me. Now the question of exactly what a decreased Heavenly reward is remains a mystery sort of, but I wasn’t really looking for that kind of detail.

I guess the one last issue I wanted to cover with you is in reference to how Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us. If, when we become Christians, that sacrifice is instantaneously, completely and permanently applied to us, then why do we have to confess our sins? I seems like double dipping! When Catholics participate in the Mass(and this is not a new topic!), they are asking God to apply Christ’s eternal sacrifice to our current need. It seems to me that asking God to forgive me for sinning on an ongoing basis is the same thing. I wouldn’t say either is “recrucifying Christ” and neither seems to imply that Christ’s sacrifice was somehow insufficient, but it does seem like a contradiction to ask God for forgivenss of a sin if you believe that that was done at the point you became Christian.
What do you think?

Again, forgive me for not reading the posts…

Phil

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Pax,
You remind me of a man who is looking through the ocean to find a glass of water. Give up Pax, and leave her. She’s like a millstone around your neck. Can’t you feel it??

Name one sin that doesn’t lead to spiritual death.

Your friend exrc

Another logical scripturally based refutation! Please try again.

 

[WBB]

WBB

"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught;** avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).**

Shalom

Thanks for the support, Catherine S. I was thinking about that verse this morning. I just think it is so hypocritical that someone can call you “Mr. Pharisee” in one post, then say, “Love Dan!” in the next.

 

[Catherine_S]

WBB:

Thanks for the support, Catherine S. I was thinking about that verse this morning. I just think it is so hypocritical that someone can call you “Mr. Pharisee” in one post, then say, “Love Dan!” in the next.

"Wolf in Sheep’s clothing" ring any bells?. .
Shalom WBB

 

[MariaG]

Pax,
You remind me of a man who is looking through the ocean to find a glass of water. Give up Pax, and leave her. She’s like a millstone around your neck. Can’t you feel it??

Name one sin that doesn’t lead to spiritual death.

Your friend exrc

:bible1: 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Might not be naming the sin, but the Bible clearly says that there is sin that does not lead to sin. Just like the word Trinity that is not in the Bible but was created to describe that which is in the Bible, these verses are the explanation of the words venial and mortal sin.

Venial=sin not leading to death
Mortal=sin leading to death

If you believe the Catholic Church is wrong, how do you interpret the verses? They seem pretty clear to me but I am willing to listen to your explanation.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Pax]

Ozzie and exrc,

Here is some more refutation of “once saved always saved.”
The word “abide” means to “remain” or “continue” and it is used frequently in the NT. Please note the importance of this as you read the following verses.

1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

2 John 9-11
Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

1 John 2: 3-6
And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2: 28-29
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him

Vine and the Branches
John 15: 1-6
"I AM the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 15: 9-14
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; **abide ** in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

It is obvious from these verses that it is necessary to “abide” in Jesus Christ and His teachings. So we must “remain” or “continue” or we will lose our salvation. These verses also outline what it means to “abide” in some rather specific ways. This terminology also fits perfectly with the passages that use the term/phrase “he who endures to the end will be saved.” The number of verses that contextually, exegetically, and logically show that you can lose your salvation could be multiplied many times over. It is for this reason that we read things like the following:

James 5: 19-20
My brethren, if any one among you** wanders from the truth ** and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever **brings back a sinner from the error of his way ** will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,** provided you continue ** in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[MariaG]

couple of typos I noticed this morning the most important being that the verses I quoted show the there is sin that does not lead to death, not sin as I posted.

 

[Ozzie]

WBB:

However, what I don’t understand is it would seem that after you “get saved” your free will is out the window.

The propositional message of the Gospel for salvation is to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ - or not believe: *“that whoever believes in Him should not perish but HAVE eternal life” *(Jn. 3:16b). Adam and Eve had free will, they could either eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or obey God’s Word and refrain from eating. It was that simple. Adam chose to eat and, subsequently, not only they, but we all suffered the consequences of his one act of transgression (see Rom. 5:18). This side of the cross God has presented a similar simplicity in the Gospel message concerning His Son, the “Last Adam,” but toward the other direction: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31) or “he who has not believed has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (Jn. 3:18b). Salvation is a gift given to all who, by an act of the will, turn from unbelief to belief in the only begotten Son of God.

It would seem that you are saying that you are no longer allowed to reject God because he won’t let you. That’s not love, that is coercion.

Salvation is not rooted in our love toward God, but that God first loved us and sent His Son (see 1 Jn. 4:9-10, 19) Actually, to hold over the believer’s head the threat of taking back the GIFT He gave through the redemptive work of His Son if failing to perform to a certain standard would be coercion. And God Himself would be proved a liar by calling salvation a GIFT in the first place (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no strings attached to a gift, or it is no gift at all. Salvation is a gift to all who believe. But the question is, have YOU truly believed???

Don’t come back with the comment that a gift can be rejected. The gift of salvation is not some piece of clothing one receives at Christmas from his parents with the receipt at the bottom of the box to take back to the merchant if it doesn’t “fit” or the color doesn’t look good on you. The gift of salvation God gives through Christ to all who BELIEVE in His Son is eternal life. The true believer is born again out of Adam and into the resurrected Christ, the “Last Adam” at the time of personal belief (that’s why it’s eternal, it’s HIS resurrected life that is transferred to the believer, Jn. 6). You cannot be un-born again spiritually any more that you can be un-born physically. You cannot reverse the death and resurrection of Christ on which salvation and the believer’s new birth are based.
Continued…​

 

[Ozzie]

…Continued from previous post:

Let me ask you, is it under divine “coercion” that you live out your physical life with God threatening you daily with non-existence (i.e., reverse your birth) if you don’t behave in a proper manner? I don’t think so! If God has redeemed you by the blood of Christ YOU cannot un-redeem yourself. If God has reconciled through the death of His Son, YOU cannot un-reconcile yourself. If God was propitiated through the blood of His Son, YOU cannot un-propitiate Him, since YOU could never propitiate Him in the first place. Only the Son, through the cross, could do all this work. God has left nothing up to you when it comes to the work of salvation and your secured relationship with Him, except to believe in what He has accomplished completely and perfectly through His Son. You cannot reverse what Christ has historically accomplished (and finished) on our behalf, nor can God deny it.

"So then as through one transgression (Adam’s) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ’s, the “Last Adam”) there resulted justification of life to all men (i.e., believers). For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

There’s your free will my good man; God has given us the choice to believe or to reject the Person and work of His Son on our behalf. The death and bodily resurrection of Christ are more than just historical facts, they have GREAT soteriological significance upon which the free gift is based (Rom. 4:25-5:1-2).

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

but it does seem like a contradiction to ask God for forgivenss of a sin if you believe that that was done at the point you became Christian. What do you think?

Sorry for butting in here, but one does not believe in Christ to “get his sins forgiven.” Sins were forgiven at the time of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice 2000 years ago:

“And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross” (Col. 2:13-14).

At the time of belief in Christ one receives LIFE, Christ’s resurrected life. When one believes in Christ he has *“passed out of death into LIFE” *(Jn. 5:24). All unbelievers are in a state of spiritual death in desperate need of LIFE. Christ’s resurrected life is transferred to the believer at the time of personal belief (Jn. 3:15; 5:26; 40; 10:10; 1 Jn. 5:12-13) . This is what Jn. 6 is all about, and being “born again” (Jn. 3). One born-again by the Spirit KNOWS for certain that ALL his sins have already been forgiven because being born from above he can now understand the significance of the cross of Christ and His bodily resurrection.

1 Jn. 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.”

It is for the sake of Christ (because of His sacrificial death) that God has forgiven us our sins. It’s not about you, it’s about Christ. But by His grace you benefit through Him eternally. That is, if you have truly believed in Him.

 

[Catherine_S]

It is for the sake of Christ (because of His sacrificial death) that God has forgiven us our sins. It’s not about you, it’s about Christ. But by His grace you benefit through Him eternally. That is, if you have truly believed in Him.

**"And We keep His Commandments and do His Father’s will !!! Matthew 7: 21- 28 **

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is the sacrament known as confession, penance, or reconciliation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9). This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of Man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God,** who had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8; note the plural men**). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, **“As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21-23).

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Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. **In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins.**Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, **but something done “in church,” **as the *Didache *(A.D. 70) indicates.

**But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for “whoever . . . ****eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor. 11:27).

The Didache

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Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70])

The Letter of Barnabas
You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light. (*Letter of Barnabas *19 [A.D. 74])
**

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**Ignatius of Antioch **For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110])

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Shalom