I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Katholikos]

Ozzie:

Fine, but that doesn’t change anything I wrote regarding that passage and “Purgatory.” The only way you can get the idea of “Purgatory” OUT of that text is if you first read it INTO that text. And that’s not an exegetical study of God’s Word.

Ozzie, the existence of Purgatory is implied in the NT – it’s not explicitly stated as in: ‘after you die, your soul will likely need to undergo purification, which will be painful, to prepare you for living in the presence of God.’

The NT is not an instruction book in Christianity! Stop trying to make it into one.

I’m still waiting – and I’ll be on hold ad infinitum – for you to show me where in the Scriptures it says that everything God revealed about man’s salvation was written, selected, collected, canonized and preserved in the Bible. Also, as I’ve previously requested, I’d like to see your inspired list of the Bible’s contents.

Once more – the Catholic Church established the canon of
Scripture. Everything that did not comport with her teachings, she excluded. Any interpretation not in accordance with the teaching of the Church is a MISinterpretation.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

Ozzie wrote:

That’s what it means for someone to take a verse out of its context.

The scriptures have two contexts – the milieu in which they were written and the surrounding text. You and all Protestants have taken the Scriptures out of the context of the living, organic, teaching Church in which they were written, so they’re always going to be “out of context” as you try to interpret them. In order to know what the NT means, you have to know what the Church was teaching when she wrote it – which is identical to what she’s teaching right now.

JMJ Jay
From the deceiver, deliver us O Lord.

 

[Des]

(The pastor at the Efree church I attend beleives this)

WoW, i thought you were a Catholic. My bad.
I wont even get involved in a discussion amongst protestants.

 

[Des]

**Matt. 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. **

This Verse does seem to come to life when you see many unlearned Catholics leaving the Church because of Doctrine they dont want to agree with, such as abortion, birth control, homosexual marriages, etc. by the added pressure by society. Only those of us that preserve till the end shall be saved.

 

[WBB]

Katholikos:

Ozzie wrote:

The scriptures have two contexts – the milieu in which they were written and the surrounding text. You and all Protestants have taken the Scriptures out of the context of the living, organic, teaching Church in which they were written, so they’re always going to be “out of context” as you try to interpret them. In order to know what the NT means, you have to know what the Church was teaching when she wrote it – which is identical to what she’s teaching right now.

JMJ Jay
From the deceiver, deliver us O Lord.

And don’t forget, the scriptures have 4 senses…literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical.

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

Karl Keating presented a hypothetical situation in his news letter today. His was about a truly born again Pastor. Hypothetically speaking, that Pastor would go to Heaven. There is nothing that can keep a truly born again believer out of Heaven. That is, one born again cannot lose his/her salvation. But the problem with hypotheticals is they’re just that - hypotheticals. You cannot accurately present theological/Biblical issues using hypotheticals. Truth regarding salvation is based on revelation, not hypothetical situations. God does far more to/for the believer besides just save him. Regeneration is involved as well, and Christ didn’t just rise from the dead and ascend back to the Father with no further work to do. He sits on the right hand of the Majesty on High as the believer’s Advocate before the Father and his High Priest, always interceding for him.

Of course, you would have to reply in this fashion to the hypothetical in order to reconcile your once saved always saved theology with the argument presented. However, what I don’t understand is it would seem that after you “get saved” your free will is out the window. It would seem that you are saying that you are no longer allowed to reject God because he won’t let you. That’s not love, that is coercion.

 

[Tim_Hayes]

Folks, it is just going around in circles,

Exerc, now tell me, how do you know when one is truly saved, please go back into Christain history post Apostles and read all about the early Christians and their discussions re salvation, you will see that there was no guarantee of salvation.

Now the point I want to make is, If God wants you to be saved, he must give you the opportunity of being saved, as Christ is the final revelation of doctrine as such then we know that God must ensure that his doctrine is faithfully transmitted through the ages. GOD IS BOUND TO ENSURE THIS. If he does not ensure this then what hope of salvation, we as humans have revealed that we have great difficulty in doing things right.

Christ has to have ensured that correct teaching has been carried out since the Apostles left us and he also has to ensure that we can visibly see and find those that teach correctly.

As we know, there, historically speaking is no other choice than Catholic or orthodox at least for the first 1500 odd years and they effectively believe the same thing.

Remember, as far as Christ was concerned the most important thing was that we be in UNION not only with each other but with GOD.

Now if we believe many a protestant type church, the Catholic Church started out right but went bad sometime in the first couple of centuries. If that were true then we cannot hope to know the truth, it is impossible becasue God has not ensured that we can know the truth, he would nlot deliberately give us all different doctrine.

When I returned to the faith besides the praying etc it was becasue there is no other choice than Catholicism. The whole of Christianity lives or dies on the catholic claim of being the
“True Church”

Remember every denomination claims to teach the truth yet we know this is impossible as many have opposite beliefs, yet we also know that many within these denominations appear to be clean living God fearing men./woman who claim that they are led ultimatley by the Holy Spirit, yet this is impossible.

I know why you don’t want to accept Catholicism Exerc and it is becasue you don’t want to follow the moral requirements, the problem with once saved always saved is that you no longer have to live any type of moral life becasue you are guaranteed of salvation.

In /christ

Tim

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

Hey Dan, Hey Ozzie:3. Failure to continue to confess our sins to God has an “eternal consequence” (but we still receive full Heavenly reward - exrc)Salvation itself is NEVER regarded as a “reward” in Scripture. I’ve said this many times before and it zips right over the legalist’s head. Contrary to the word that comes out of Rome, salvation is ALWAYS regarded as a “gift” in God’s Word (Eph. 2:8-9). How could anyone be “rewarded” salvation if ALL the work for salvation was accomplished and completed perfectly by Someone else? And you know who that Someone else is! All are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

The failue to confess a sin does not have eternal consequences. It’s impossible to confess every single sin since sins are greater than just the overt action. Sins are not the issue this side of the cross. The Gospel message is not do not sin and be saved, or, confess your sins and be saved, but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved (Jn. 3:14-18; Titus 3:4-7). Eternal “rewards” (not his salvation) are based on a Christian worker’s LABORS here on earth in this present life, not confessing or not confessing sins - read 1 Cor. 3:8-15. To apply these verses in 1 Cor. to the fictional place called “Purgatory” does violence to that text.

God had His Judgment Day on all of man’s sins, and that took place 2000 years ago on a wooden cross. Jesus Christ took the heat in our stead. That’s why it’s called a substitutionary sacrifice and He’s called the “Lamb of God.” The Apostolic message that has gone out into the world since then is to BELIEVE in His Son, and whoever believes HAS eternal life. It’s that simple, Phil, and you must begin there or you have not begun at all.

 

[exrc]

Tim Hayes:

Exerc, please go back into Christain history post Apostles and read all about the early Christians and their discussions re salvation, you will see that there was no guarantee of salvation

Tim,
Thats like saying christians didn’t know which scripture was inspired before it was officially cannonized. You’re saying just because they didn’t write down somewhere,( “your salvation is guaranteed, we believe OSAS” )that they didn’t believe it? What about the word “trinity”, do you find that written in scripture? All these things needed to be defined to avoid confusion I’m sure you know. Martin Luther needed to define OSAS because no one else did, and lived to tell about it. Luther is not my pope, or Clement, or Augustine to name a few good men. They had some good (name removed by moderator)ut, but in the end, they all were under the authority of inspired scripture.

Now the point I want to make is, If God wants you to be saved, he must give you the opportunity of being saved

We are saved out of ignorance Tim. His grace draws us out of this ignorance. WE DON"T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO BE SAVED! Subsequently, we have no means of keeping our salvation. It is not dependent on us, it is independent of us.

Let me explain,
What was the sin that put Adam and Eve into hell? Murder? rape?homosexuality? Adultery? No, they ate a fruit!

Was this a “mortal” sin, using your terminology? It would have to be.
If Jesus never came and died on the cross, everybody would have been tossed into the lake of fire, including them. No matter what they would have accomplished, by their own abilities. When we sin (or miss the mark)Tim, no matter what it is, we deserve death. I don’t know about you, but I miss the mark 24/365. In other words all sin is “mortal”. Don’t be lured into thinking that you posess any personal righteousness. This is the very thing that Paul fought against in most of his letters, especially Galatians. When we try to obey any of Gods laws to acheive justification, we are actually seeking personal (self) righteousness apart from Gods. This wars against grace. So why do we obey Gods laws? Because he put it in us to do so, if we are truly born again. He gave us the ability to “truly love”, not the way the world… thinks… they love.

Christ has to have ensured that correct teaching has been carried out since the Apostles left us and he also has to ensure that we can visibly see and find those that teach correctly

It’s called the bible Tim.

Now if we believe many a protestant type church, the Catholic Church started out right but went bad sometime in the first couple of centuries. If that were true then we cannot hope to know the truth, it is impossible becasue God has not ensured that we can know the truth, he would nlot deliberately give us all different doctrine.

That’s why he gave us the Holy Spirit in us,( if we are born again), to lead us into all truth. He knows what he wrote Tim.

. The whole of Christianity lives or dies on the catholic claim of being the
“True Church”

You realize that this statement is a personal opinion, and I find it quite humorous that you would tell me this.

I know why you don’t want to accept Catholicism Exerc and it is becasue you don’t want to follow the moral requirements, the problem with once saved always saved is that you no longer have to live any type of moral life becasue you are guaranteed of salvation.

I guess I am found out now eh Tim?

Maybe I should become a RC priest, they know all about moral requirements, and they all follow them perfectly, don’t they?

Need we go there?

Love and blessings to you! your friend Dan!

 

[KLStevens]

Dan,

From your above post we can all see you have chosen Martin Luther over Jesus’ Apostles.

From some of your remarks I can only see that you are incorrigible and at times arrogant. Not the marks of the Holy Spirit the last time I checked but I am not judging here. Maybe your good qualities have just not found their way onto this forum.

Your arguments are most unconvincing.

And regarding the comment about Jesus’ Catholic priests?

You might like to check the statistics on your Protestant pastors–they’re worse in MANY respects–even the ones that are catching attention today.

Jesus told us to welcome all, God will sort us out in the end.
Remember the parable about the weeds?

Here are some quick responses :
You mentioned: “What was the sin that put Adam and Eve into hell? Murder? rape?homosexuality? Adultery? No, they ate a fruit!
Was this a “mortal” sin, using your terminology? It would have to be.”

Their sin was the sin of DISOBEDIENCE.

But wait, they knew who God was, they believed? BUT THEY DISOBEYED HIM! Their actions (works) sent them out of His Kingdom.

You stated that basically, the correct Christian teaching is found ONLY and COMPLETELY in the Bible.

To Jesus, the Apostles, the Earliest Christians and His Church throughout 2000 years, the correct teachings of Jesus were found first in Sacred Tradition and then later aided by Sacred Scripture.

The Bible tells us clearly it does not contain all that Jesus taught. It also tells us to hold fast to TRADITION and then does not define the tradition.

Therefore, SCRIPTURE TELLS US that NOT ALL THAT IS TO BE KNOWN ABOUT CHRIST CAN BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE.

For the record, it was Martin Luther who told you and every other unsuspecting non-Catholic since the Reformation that only half the deposit of faith is all you need.

Peace be with you. Leave your will behind and come home to Jesus’ 2000 year old One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

PS: In addition to all the MANY LINES OF SCRIPTURE that disprove your theory of Christianity, you’re now ignoring history…

 

[KLStevens]

Ozzie:

Salvation itself is NEVER regarded as a “reward” in Scripture. I’ve said this many times before and it zips right over the legalist’s head. Contrary to the word that comes out of Rome, salvation is ALWAYS regarded as a “gift” in God’s Word (Eph. 2:8-9). How could anyone be “rewarded” salvation if ALL the work for salvation was accomplished and completed perfectly by Someone else? And you know who that Someone else is! All are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.

Dear Ozzie,

Honestly now, why are you disregarding all of the teachings of Christ?
You are isolating Paul’s message.

The truth is–and the facts of history support–that what you have described above is merely your opinon based on Reformation theology.

You can deny it all you want but the early Christians believed you could forfieit your Salvation by rejecting God, that fatih without works is dead and they followed the teachings of Jesus based on the whole deposit of faith that He gave them, not by isolating Paul’s letters as their “foundation of faith.”

The fact that 1600 years worth of Christians DID NOT ASCRIBE TO Once Saved, Always Saved, Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide (even the earliest Christians didn’t!) gives me more proof that it was a concept developed by men with no connection to the Apostolic teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Not to mention the words Martin Luther spoke and have been recorded about how he came upon these concepts.

Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John again. And again. And again.

Jesus’ message is not as cut and dry as you would like it. He is requiring more from us than just a belief. But I agree with you that after we receive the gift of Grace from God, we need our faith. Here again are some of Our Lord Jesus’ own words:

“But the one who endures will be saved.” Matt 10:22
***Why the need to endure? If we’re always saved once we believe?

“Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven…either in this age or the age to come.” Matt 12:31-32
***Look here, and I hope Dan is reading this too: SOME SINS WON’T BE FORGIVEN! But by your account all sins past, present and future are already forgiven. JESUS TELLS US NOT THIS ONE!

“I tell you, on the day of judgement you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED.” Matt 12:36-37
***Something you do will cause you to be CONDEMNED!

“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17
***Sounds like work!

“Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that PRODUCES THE FRUITS of the kingdom.” Matt 21:43 ***Produce = work! Once again…

“But the one who endures will be saved.” Matt 24:13
***Same as 10:22, obviously important if He needed to remind us twice.

These are just a few lines from Matthew. I could go on and on with Jesus’ Own WORDS that show the Catholic Church is teaching the truth here. Read Jesus’ parables, He is constantly talking about how faith needs to produce.

Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John again. And again. And again.
Read Jesus’ words and please let them be the foundation of your faith.
Read Paul’s letters in light of Jesus’ teaching which clearly says there is more expected of us than just believing…

continued…

 

[KLStevens]

…continued from above.

Ozzie:

The failue to confess a sin does not have eternal consequences. It’s impossible to confess every single sin since sins are greater than just the overt action. Sins are not the issue this side of the cross. The Gospel message is not do not sin and be saved, or, confess your sins and be saved, but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you are saved (Jn. 3:14-18; Titus 3:4-7). Eternal “rewards” (not his salvation) are based on a Christian worker’s LABORS here on earth in this present life, not confessing or not confessing sins - read 1 Cor. 3:8-15.

Again here you are putting Paul’s teachings on faith as more authoritative than Jesus’–here again are some of Our Saviors words:

"From that time on, Jesus began to preach and say, “REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt 4:17

“…Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: 'This is the time of fulfillment, The Kingdom of God is at hand. REPENT, AND believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“By no means! But I tell you, if you DO NOT REPENT, YOU WILL PERISH AS THEY DID!” Luke 13:3

“By no means! But I tell you, if you DO NOT REPENT, YOU WILL PERISH AS THEY DID!” Luke 13:5 ***twice in almost as many verses—again worth repeating if its important.

Luke 15:1-10

Now Jesus sent forth his Apostles to preach–this we all know–now we have some of what they taught:

“So they went off and preached repentance.” Mark 6:12

"Peter said to them, “REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of YOUR SINS; and you will receive the gift from the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38

“REPENT, therefore, and be converted, THAT YOUR SINS MAY BE WIPED AWAY.” Acts 3:19

“God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He DEMANDS THAT ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE REPENT.” Acts 17:30

***Above we see some very clear instances where OUR SINS STILL NEED TO BE FORGIVEN.

John the Baptist tells us:
“PRODUCE GOOD FRUIT AS EVIDENCE OF YOUR REPENTANCE.” Matt 4:8 This is repeated in Luke 3:8 also.

Also a few words on SIN:
“If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin IS NOT DEADLY, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those WHOSE SIN IS NOT DEADLY. THERE IS SUCH A THING AS DEADLY SIN, about which I do not say that you should pray. ALLWRONGDOING IS SIN, BUT THERE IS SIN THAT IS NOT DEADLY.” 1 John 5:16-17

“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving knowledge of the truth, THERE NO LONGER REMAINS SACRIFICE for sins BUT A FEARFUL PROSPECT OF JUDGEMENT AND A FLAMING FIRE THAT SI GOING TO CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES” Hebrews 10:26

Jesus is telling us to seek forgiveness, to repent of our old ways. He taught His disciples to preach about the importance of forgiveness of sins and He also taught that there is SIN THAT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN. If not, Satan would be in Heaven with us.

By the way–I reread 1 Cor 3:8-10–nothing there about eternal rewards. Paul is speaking of charisms here being used for the common good while on earth.

You might also want to keep reading as even Paul tells you: “…for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor 3:11

Do not allow Paul to be the foundation of your faith.

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[WBB]

Ozzie:

God had His Judgment Day on all of man’s sins, and that took place 2000 years ago on a wooden cross. Jesus Christ took the heat in our stead. That’s why it’s called a substitutionary sacrifice and He’s called the “Lamb of God.”

So, you are saying that the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross is in the past. His sacrifice was for sins yet to be committed as well. Reconcile this.

 

[Tim_Hayes]

EXRC, you hav not thoughtabout your answer corectly.

There is no way to identify the current bible as being the true word of God without accepting the word of those long dead, you ultimately have , to place your faith in God, that he ensured that we humans would correctly record the bible books.

Now tell me this, Protestants have removed some books from the bible claiming that they should not be there, how can they know they do not belong. ,

If we trust that God has ensured his words through scripture are kept, then we must believe that all the books belong, it is impossible to know which ones belong or not without accepting the testimony of long dead MEN.

Either God guided these men or he did not, You must use your reasoning ability, if God has not ensured the Catholic Faith (or for that matter any other single one Church) to teach the truth from the time of the Apostles to now, then it is impossible to to identify true teaching, plain and simple, it requires definitive action from God.

have you not thought about all those orthodox and catholics who believed and practiced many doctrines which you say are sinful/evil from the beginning of Christianity until the reformation. Remember there was essentially no other beliefs other than those of orthodox and catholic which are virtually identical with each other

Are all those prior to the reformation who practiced the catholic/orthodox faith saved or are they in hell, what is your answer.

In Christ

Tim

 

[Catherine_S]

exrc,

You have claimed that you haven’t insulted anyone. Rest assured that we have felt quite insulted and angered by some of your remarks. Remember, you are on a Catholic forum and in discussions with Catholics. When you insult the Catholic Church, and refer to the Body of Christ as the “whore,” then you insult the members of that body as well as Jesus, Himself.

When you quote scripture and say, “come out of her,” you again insult in a terrible way both the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Body, and all of the members. And again you insult Jesus who is the head of His Church.

Granted, you may not believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ or that Catholic’s are Christians. This belief is untrue, but you are certainly entitled to hold that opinion. If you are a fan of David Hunt’s work than you probably believe many odd and erroneous things about the Church. It would serve you well to read some Catholic critiques of his work to find out just how goofy his contentions really are.

In any event, a Christian, in good conscience, is never justified in attacking another person’s church or their beliefs in the fashion that you have attacked the Catholic Church. It is at best estremely rude and tacky and at worst utterly blasphemous. From our perspective it is the latter.

A little psychology would alert one to the reasons for dropping this conversation… the type of character involved…discernment shows up what is hidden behind it…and Scripture speaks of folks like these…Mathew 7:6
This kind of speech is never from the Holy Spirit.…it is always from another spirit… divisive, distructive, disrespectful and abusive. It mocks and degrades because it has to do sne walks away from it !! It is a cat and mouse game… leading no where !
Shalom,
Catherine

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Well, you began by referencing Matt. 24:3-36, but you only quoted certain verses within that chapter. You completely avoided quoting the verse that puts it all in context: verse three. "Tell us, when will these thing be, and what will be the sign or your coming, and of the END OF THE AGE?" Verse thirteen, “endure to the end” has to do with the “end of the age.” The events in Matt. 24 all must be understood in THAT context. You have a very short memory, Pax. I commented on this chapter and the verses you quote in a previous post. Why do you keep posting it? You might want to go back and read it.

My friend, just quoting the surrounding verses doesn’t put your interpretation in context. YOU take it OUT of context by generally applying particular verses in that chapter to a believer’s salvation when, in fact, the context itself doesn’t apply or support your assumption. That’s what it means for someone to take a verse out of its context. As I pointed out before, Pax, all Scripture is written FOR you, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT you. You need to understand that significant principle when reading Scripture. Matthew chapter 24 is prophetic, and verse three concerns a definite time in the future, i.e., the great Tribulation and the “end of the age.” The consummation of the age being the second Advent of Christ (please see vss. 29-30).

As I pointed out in my previous post, if, according to your interpretation, the saved are only those who “endure to the end” (in context, “end of the age,” i.e., Christ’s physical return to this earth), then ALL believers who have died prior to this present generation died apart from salvation. And if we, in this generation (that would include you), don’t live to experience the Lord’s physical return to this earth, then we too will perish apart from salvation. For, based on your erroneous interpretation, only those who “endure to the end” will be saved.

See what happens when you fail to recognize the proper context? But I think in your case it’s not simply a failure to recognize it, you simply refuse to, because recognition of the context would destroy your doctrine (including your list of out-of-context pet-texts you keep in your back pocket).
Now before you make a quick response, look at the context and THINK about what I wrote.

Ozzie,

The verses I quoted contain the exact context that you contend was lacking. I agree with you that Jesus is speaking prophetically and I even said so in my post. The context is intact and you and I have no disagreement on that issue.

We disagree on what it means. You have applied some illogical thinking that disagrees with both the text and what I wrote. I simply pointed out the words of the Lord, Himself. He makes it clear that those in the end times that do not endure to the end, that fall away etc. will not be saved. They are believers but can fall away and lose their salvation. I never suggested that the statement by Jesus that “if those days were not shortened no human being would be saved” meant every single person that ever lived would lose their salvation. Nothing in my post or in the text can be interpreted to allow for that kind of thing. The verses are as you rightly pointed out talking about the “end of the age.” On that we agree and there is no lack of context in my post.

You are merely being contentious and are not willing to believe that believers can lose their salvation which is clearly pointed out by Jesus in this particular discourse. If believers can lose their salvation during the era that Jesus is prophesying about, then they people in other eras can lose their salvation in the same way.
Once saved always saved simply isn’t consistent with scripture.

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Fine, but that doesn’t change anything I wrote regarding that passage and “Purgatory.” The only way you can get the idea of “Purgatory” OUT of that text is if you first read it INTO that text. And that’s not an exegetical study of God’s Word.

While I appreciate this concession, which I believe is your first on this thread, I disagree with your contention that it doesn’t change anything. Clearly, you would not have tried this particular gambit and line of argument if you didn’t think it was necessary for your case.

You contend that we read purgatory into the text when in fact we have shown how the passages more closely coincide with Catholic teaching on purgatory then any other interpretation. The suggestion that we read the teaching into the text is an opinion you express because you sincerely disagree with the teaching. It would be fair on our part to assert that you read into scripture only interpretations that discount or ignore Catholic teachings.

In making this statement, I am not trying to be antagonistic or unfair to you. I only say it because we have discussed many Catholic teachings with you on this thread and given you numerous and substantial scripture passages to support them. Moreover, we have demonstrated that some of these teachings were held by early Church Fathers that were taught directly by the apostles. In spite of the overwhelming evidence you have not accepted even one Catholic teaching.

Since the scriptural data, historical data, the constant teaching of the Church and logical argument have been on our side in these cases, I can only conclude that your resistence to even one concession means that you deliberately or perhaps unconsciously incorporate in your exegesis an automatic exclusion of all that is Catholic. That is not exegesis. That is a bias that prevents exegesis.

 

[Pax]

Katholikos:

Ozzie wrote:

The scriptures have two contexts – the milieu in which they were written and the surrounding text. You and all Protestants have taken the Scriptures out of the context of the living, organic, teaching Church in which they were written, so they’re always going to be “out of context” as you try to interpret them. In order to know what the NT means, you have to know what the Church was teaching when she wrote it – which is identical to what she’s teaching right now.

JMJ Jay
From the deceiver, deliver us O Lord.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Tim,
…
In other words all sin is “mortal”. It’s called the bible Tim. That’s why he gave us the Holy Spirit in us,( if we are born again), to lead us into all truth. He knows what he wrote Tim.
…
Maybe I should become a RC priest, they know all about moral requirements, and they all follow them perfectly, don’t they?

Need we go there?

Love and blessings to you! your friend Dan!

exrc,

I have cut out much of your post because we have addressed so much of it already. You are ever so wrong Dan, when you claim that all sin is “mortal.” Once again, it is not you that has been led unto all truth but the Catholic Church which says that "not all sin is mortal."
One of the Catholic Church’s earliest bishops wrote, “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.”
You can read this quote in 1 John 5:16.

Your comments about Catholic priests is again typical of your efforts to insult us. Please keep in mind that we do not believe that our priests, bishops, or even the Pope are sinless. We all know quite well that all are sinners and some have been serious (mortal) sinners. The same applies to ministers in all other denominations. If you want to get a clear picture of all of this without any bias you should read everything written on the subject by Dr. Phillip Jenkins who is probably the most knowledgeable sociologist on this topic.

Your comment about priests is really immaterial. Everyone sins and must repent and seek forgiveness. If you have a hard and impenitent heart Paul tells us that, “you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed”[Romans 2:5]. This applies to everybody. God’s mercy is extended to us by the merits of Jesus death on the cross, but this does not negate God’s justice.

 

[Catherine_S]

exrc:

My friend,
Since I have been posting on this website, I have been called a swine, ignoramus, dumb protestant, amongst others.

I return only scriptures and blessings to those who scorn me.

Bless you all !!!

Repay not evil with evil.

I will defend the blood of martyrs before me, and NEVER betray their sacrifice. Their love was too great to be ignored or compromised.

In love your friend Dan!!

Boloney Exrc…you have been most disrespectful towards the Catholic Church but the folks here have been charitable with you !!

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea3.asp

catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp