I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Pax]

Ozzie and exrc,

Here is another area of scripture that causes more problems for the teaching of “once saved always saved.”

In the gospel of Matthew Jesus speaks prophetically in a discourse sometimes referred to as the “little apocalypse.” Most scholars indicate that In this set of verses Jesus speaks in veiled terms of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as well as the end of the world. The verses are in part as follows:

Matthew 24:3-36
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one leads you astray.
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.** And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.** And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. **For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. ** Lo, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

analysis on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

I have highlighted the pertinent verses to show that many will be led astray and that this includes believers. In fact Jesus says that if the days of the tribulation were not shortened “no human being would be saved.” But how could something like that be true if "once you were saved, you were always saved? It is obvious that salvation can be lost and that some will be led astray, the love of some will grow cold, some will not endure to the end and as a result some will lose their salvation. Scripture consistently stands in direct opposition to the doctrine of “once saved always saved.”

P.S. Ozzie, I hope I quoted enough verses here so as to preserve the context. I’ll let “all” of the readers decide if the context is correct.

 

[Pax]

exrc,

You have claimed that you haven’t insulted anyone. Rest assured that we have felt quite insulted and angered by some of your remarks. Remember, you are on a Catholic forum and in discussions with Catholics. When you insult the Catholic Church, and refer to the Body of Christ as the “whore,” then you insult the members of that body as well as Jesus, Himself.

When you quote scripture and say, “come out of her,” you again insult in a terrible way both the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Body, and all of the members. And again you insult Jesus who is the head of His Church.

Granted, you may not believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ or that Catholic’s are Christians. This belief is untrue, but you are certainly entitled to hold that opinion. If you are a fan of David Hunt’s work than you probably believe many odd and erroneous things about the Church. It would serve you well to read some Catholic critiques of his work to find out just how goofy his contentions really are.

In any event, a Christian, in good conscience, is never justified in attacking another person’s church or their beliefs in the fashion that you have attacked the Catholic Church. It is at best estremely rude and tacky and at worst utterly blasphemous. From our perspective it is the latter.

 

[Ozzie]

exrc:

Phil, Does God know you will sin? Yes. Does he know what those sins will be?Yes. Did you catch him by surprise when you really blow it?No. Think Phil, would he save you knowing all this before hand then cast you into hell? (He would be a pretty dumb God) If so then why doesn’t he save us then take us directly to heaven? Why take the chance of leaving us here to possibly lose our salvation? Even as dumb as I am, I wouldn’t take that chance if I had a choice. Think!!!

I was waiting for Phil’s answer on this one. He didn’t “think,” he just answered with “maybe” this, “maybe” that. I think the truth is, he didn’t want to think about it. Or, he just couldn’t!! Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:12 that all true believers are given the Spirit who is from God so that all might know the things FREELY given to us BY God. Phil, and other RCs on this thread, just can’t grasp what God has FREELY given to us through Christ. I wonder why, based on 1 Cor. 2:12. Is it possible…???

 

[SPOKENWORD]

exrc,

You have claimed that you haven’t insulted anyone. Rest assured that we have felt quite insulted and angered by some of your remarks. Remember, you are on a Catholic forum and in discussions with Catholics. When you insult the Catholic Church, and refer to the Body of Christ as the “whore,” then you insult the members of that body as well as Jesus, Himself.

When you quote scripture and say, “come out of her,” you again insult in a terrible way both the Catholic Church, which is Christ’s Body, and all of the members. And again you insult Jesus who is the head of His Church.

Granted, you may not believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ or that Catholic’s are Christians. This belief is untrue, but you are certainly entitled to hold that opinion. If you are a fan of David Hunt’s work than you probably believe many odd and erroneous things about the Church. It would serve you well to read some Catholic critiques of his work to find out just how goofy his contentions really are.

In any event, a Christian, in good conscience, is never justified in attacking another person’s church or their beliefs in the fashion that you have attacked the Catholic Church. It is at best estremely rude and tacky and at worst utterly blasphemous. From our perspective it is the latter.

Hi Pax, I must say I found it very insulting myself being a Christian.Im sorry but this is not speaking in Love, reguardless the intent. Life and death are in the power of the tongue. We as christians have to be careful what comes out of our mouths that it does not bring shame to our Lord Jesus Christ. I offer appoligies in our brothers name because it hurts the Body of Christ.

 

[Des]

Ozzie:

I was waiting for Phil’s answer on this one. He didn’t “think,” he just answered with “maybe” this, “maybe” that. I think the truth is, he didn’t want to think about it. Or, he just couldn’t!!

Actually, I read phils response and it is in order with the Church’s teaching on Salvation. I’m betting that when he said “mabe” it was more for you to think “mabe” than him.

ozzie:

Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:12 that all true believers are given the Spirit who is from God so that all might know the things FREELY given to us BY God. Phil, and other RCs on this thread, just can’t grasp what God has FREELY given to us through Christ. I wonder why, based on 1 Cor. 2:12. Is it possible…???

True believer would not take the human sense for his guide but would submit to the Catholic Church. A true believer would not be a free thinker like yourself. No offence but you are the sensual man** (which is either he who is taken up with sensual pleasures, with carnal and worldly affections; or he who measures divine mysteries by natural reason, sense, and human wisdom only)** that this chapter is also talking about.

 

[Des]

One more thing ozzie. I noticed you emphasized the word Freely. What’s your point. All knowledge that comes through the Catholic Church is “FREELY” given to us by God.

 

[exrc]

Philthy:

exrc says,Does God know you will sin? Yes. Does he know what those sins will be?Yes. Did you catch him by surprise when you really blow it?No. Think Phil, would he save you knowing all this before hand then cast you into hell?

Phil says, Maybe He didn’t save us but simply made salvation available to us and then, since we were made in his image gave and respected our free will to choose him and thereby love HIm, because without the choice it isn’t Love but simply compulsion

.I Phil,grace made us believers, he saves us out of ignorance. It’s his choice to save us not ours.He knows we don’t have the capacity to keep ourselves saved, if we think otherwise, we make fools of ourselves, and make him impudent.

.

exrc says,Why take the chance of leaving us here to possibly lose our salvation?

Phil says, Do you think maybe God knows something that you and I don’t? Because the fact is, we are here and not all of us will be saved…

I cannot see how your answer has anything to do with my question.

exrc says,Even as dumb as I am, I wouldn’t take that chance if I had a choice

.

Phil says, So knowing God is infinitely wise we are to conclude that maybe He had no choice. He must’ve had to do it this way. Is that your conclusion?

No Phil, he does have a choice, it would not violate his righteousness to do so.

O.K. Phil,

1)What is the purpose of confessing your sin to another person whom you have offended, and what is the purpose of him forgiving you?

2)Are there any eternal consequences for not confessing to or forgiving one another, which do not have salvational consequences?

If you answer these 2 questions Phil, you will have the answer to the question you asked me.

I will not put words in your mouth Phil. Argue with yourself.

I believe that you think eternal consequences are the same as salvational consequences. I do not.

Read 1Cor 3:12-15, this illustrates the difference between the two.

Your friend Dan!

 

[KLStevens]

Phil,

Did we ever get an answer from Dan as to what he means by eternal consequences?

From what I’ve read, we haven’t and now he’s gone and added another bunch of questions to the mix. I see the circles you were talking about.

So Dan,
I have three simple questions for you. I know you’re busy but if you have a moment, please take the time to answer them.

What are the eternal consequences you speak of?

Why would they matter or even exist if you’re already “saved” and guaranteed a place in heaven?

And why have you not answered any of the posts about the fact that the concepts of Once Saved, Always Saved, Sola Scriputra and Sola Fide are the products of the MEN of the Reformation and did NOT exist until the 16th century?

Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[Katholikos]

exrc:

Phil,grace made us believers, he saves us out of ignorance. It’s his choice to save us not ours.He knows we don’t have the capacity to keep ourselves saved, if we think otherwise, we make fools of ourselves, and make him impudent,

Historical facts:

-The Catholic Church excluded from the canon of Scriptures any writing that did not conform to her teaching. Therefore any interpretation that does not agree with the Church’s doctrines and practices is a misinterpretation.

-Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) was invented by Martin Luther in 1517.

-Sola Fide (Faith Alone) was invented by Martin Luther while sitting on the privy in the tower, according to his own words.

-Once Saved Always Saved was invented by Martin Luther in 1521 and perpetuated by John Calvin as Perseverance of the Saints.

Yet you and Ozzie defend these doctrines as if they came from God.

Is Martin Luther your God?

You wrote ‘God saves us out of ignorance’ and ‘we can make him *impudent *by our thinking.’ It’s not too late for a good Catholic education to help you avoid these kinds of errors.

JMJ Jay

 

[RBushlow]

exrc:

I know exactly what the RCC says they teach

Dan, you very clearly do not know what the Catholic Church teaches. Your mistaken notions of what the Church teaches are WAY off base. (BTW many of us are of Byzantine, Meklite, Maronite, or Rites. We are not all “Roman”, kindly use the correct term “Catholic Church”.)

May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[KLStevens]

Katholikos:

Is Martin Luther your God?

Either that or he’s their magisterium!

Bet they didn’t even know they had one! Funny thing is even as their magisterium Luther didn’t do very well handing on his self-appointed teaching authority! I believe even before his death his followers were already divided against themselves.

Thanks for once again pointing out the historical facts of Christianity.

 

[Philthy]

Hey Dan, Hey Ozzie:

exrc:

Phil,grace made us believers, he saves us out of ignorance. It’s his choice to save us not ours.He knows we don’t have the capacity to keep ourselves saved, if we think otherwise, we make fools of ourselves, and make him impudent.

True, but irrelevant. Here are the premises we have established to date:

1. Christ’s sacrifice is the sole basis for the forgiveness of our sins; past present and future.
2. We must continue to confess our new sins to God.
3. Failure to continue to confess our sins to God has an “eternal consequence” (but we still receive full Heavenly reward - exrc)

Here are the unresolved implications of these premises:

If the redemptive work of Christs sacrifice is applied to us instantaneously, completely and permanently at the time of our being “born again” then:

A. Why do we need to continue to confess our sins to GOD?
B. What (and this is at least the 4th time I’ve asked) is the mysterious “eternal consequence” of failing to do so?
C. Why should I care about the eternal consequence if I still go to Heaven, and my Heavenly reward is not altered?

I cannot see how your answer has anything to do with my question.

Thats why its good to provide multiple choice answers like I do - that way you don’t end up going in random directions

No Phil, he does have a choice, it would not violate his righteousness to do so.

Please stay focused on the issues at hand. We have our established premises based on our discussions to date and we have some implications which appear contradictory. Please share with me your theological resolution of the issues (A,B, and C) above. It’s getting a little redundant for me to keep asking the questions over and over only to have you NOT answer them and ask me other questions instead in an attempt to lead me to your answer.

1)What is the purpose of confessing your sin to another person whom you have offended, and what is the purpose of him forgiving you?

I don’t want to start talking about confessing sins to OTHER PEOPLE. Again, you are drifting. Please reread the above paragraph.

2)Are there any eternal consequences for not confessing to or forgiving one another, which do not have salvational consequences?

If you answer these 2 questions Phil, you will have the answer to the question you asked me.

I think you mean to say that if I answer them correctly I’ll have the answer. The problem is, like I told you all along, I don’t know all the answers. I’m trying to find out what you think and perhaps learn something. Ill do just what you ask, and you tell me if we’ve reached an endpoint or not:

Question 1: My answer is: to remain in God’s Grace which Jesus taught us in the Lords prayer.
Question 2: No, I don’t think you can separate our eternity from our salvation.

The light has not gone on…

Next post please

 

[Philthy]

I will not put words in your mouth Phil.

Im looking for the words from YOUR mouth! You won’t tell me what you think the eternal consequence is. Why not? I don’t get it - why won’t you just tell me? Do you think it’s obvious and I’m playing dumb? I honestly can’t imagine why you wouldn’t just tell me if you had the answer…

Argue with yourself.

I’m sorry if you feel I’m being argumentative - I didn’t mean to upset you. Truthfully I’m exasperated that you won;t simply share with me what you know. I am not arguing! Check the posts again.

I believe that you think eternal consequences are the same as salvational consequences. I do not.

OK, fair enough, I can respect that. But what are the eternal consequences then and why should I care? I would have assumed you believed in a diminished heavenly reward(The pastor at the Efree church I attend beleives this) - you’re still saved but your Heavenly reward is lessened. That’s not outrageous to believe, but you didn’t select that option; you want full heavenly reward with some eternal consequence that remains a mystery

Read 1Cor 3:12-15, this illustrates the difference between the two.

OK I’ll check it out. but please just tell me what you think. If you’re afraid of being attacked by others jsut send me a PM

Your friend Dan!
We are brothers in Christ - I believe that

Phil

 

[JamesS]

exrc:

Phil,
One of my posts got lost, probably my fault, sorry.

I think you are missing my intention in our discussion so far.

What is the purpose of confessing your sin to another person whom you have offended, and what is the purpose of him forgiving you? I’m still going to let you figure out how this applies to our discussion. I hope you’re not playing dumb with me.

Everything has eternal consequences Phil, but not salvational consequences. If you are truly saved(born again), nothing can change that. My answer is (C)

Grace draws you to him, he gives you the faith to believe, then you confess him (Jesus) unto righteousness for you. This is called justification, it is imputed to you, declared perfectly righteous, at this point you’re sealed in Christ.

Do you still sin? Yes!

Does God know you will sin? Yes. Does he know what those sins will be?Yes. Did you catch him by surprise when you really blow it?No. Think Phil, would he save you knowing all this before hand then cast you into hell? (He would be a pretty dumb God) If so then why doesn’t he save us then take us directly to heaven? Why take the chance of leaving us here to possibly lose our salvation? Even as dumb as I am, I wouldn’t take that chance if I had a choice.

Think!!!

Now, after saying all that.

What is the purpose of confessing our sins after we are saved?

Your Friend Dan

You believe that one cannot turn their back on Christ, once in his favour?

But what about the brightest of his angels, Lucifer?
What about the many men who have rejected the Holy Spirit throughout history?

Salvational consequences? Hmm, if what you mean is greater or lesser reward in Heaven I would refer you to Dante.

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Ozzie:

I was waiting for Phil’s answer on this one. He didn’t “think,” he just answered with “maybe” this, “maybe” that. I think the truth is, he didn’t want to think about it. Or, he just couldn’t!! Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:12 that all true believers are given the Spirit who is from God so that all might know the things FREELY given to us BY God. Phil, and other RCs on this thread, just can’t grasp what God has FREELY given to us through Christ. I wonder why, based on 1 Cor. 2:12. Is it possible…???

If you denied your Christian faith this instant and said that you were an atheist, then killed yourself, cursing God as you did, then where would you go?

 

[exrc]

Philthy:

OK, fair enough, I can respect that. But what are the eternal consequences then and why should I care? I would have assumed you believed in a diminished heavenly reward(The pastor at the Efree church I attend beleives this) - you’re still saved but your Heavenly reward is lessened

I’m sorry Phil, why didn’t you let me know this in the beginning. Yes I agree with your pastor on this. I hope you agree with him also. This is probably one of the most important doctrines you will learn. If you agree with this doctrine Phil, then you have a firm grip on scripture, and are maturing in the faith. Many who are young and immature do not understand this.
.

We are brothers in Christ - I believe that

Peace, love, and blessings to you Phil! exrc Dan!

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

P.S. Ozzie, I hope I quoted enough verses here so as to preserve the context. I’ll let “all” of the readers decide if the context is correct.

Well, you began by referencing Matt. 24:3-36, but you only quoted certain verses within that chapter. You completely avoided quoting the verse that puts it all in context: verse three. “Tell us, when will these thing be, and what will be the sign or your coming, and of the END OF THE AGE?” Verse thirteen, “endure to the end” has to do with the “end of the age.” The events in Matt. 24 all must be understood in THAT context. You have a very short memory, Pax. I commented on this chapter and the verses you quote in a previous post. Why do you keep posting it? You might want to go back and read it.

My friend, just quoting the surrounding verses doesn’t put your interpretation in context. YOU take it OUT of context by generally applying particular verses in that chapter to a believer’s salvation when, in fact, the context itself doesn’t apply or support your assumption. That’s what it means for someone to take a verse out of its context. As I pointed out before, Pax, all Scripture is written FOR you, but not all Scripture is written ABOUT you. You need to understand that significant principle when reading Scripture. Matthew chapter 24 is prophetic, and verse three concerns a definite time in the future, i.e., the great Tribulation and the “end of the age.” The consummation of the age being the second Advent of Christ (please see vss. 29-30).

As I pointed out in my previous post, if, according to your interpretation, the saved are only those who “endure to the end” (in context, “end of the age,” i.e., Christ’s physical return to this earth), then ALL believers who have died prior to this present generation died apart from salvation. And if we, in this generation (that would include you), don’t live to experience the Lord’s physical return to this earth, then we too will perish apart from salvation. For, based on your erroneous interpretation, only those who “endure to the end” will be saved.

See what happens when you fail to recognize the proper context? But I think in your case it’s not simply a failure to recognize it, you simply refuse to, because recognition of the context would destroy your doctrine (including your list of out-of-context pet-texts you keep in your back pocket).
Now before you make a quick response, look at the context and THINK about what I wrote.

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

All of them except for Weymouth’s New Testament use the word preach(ed). Somehow, I think I’ll trust the expertise of the translators of these well known bibles over your personal spin.

Fine, but that doesn’t change anything I wrote regarding that passage and “Purgatory.” The only way you can get the idea of “Purgatory” OUT of that text is if you first read it INTO that text. And that’s not an exegetical study of God’s Word.

 

[Ozzie]

Corpus Cristi:

If you denied your Christian faith this instant and said that you were an atheist, then killed yourself, cursing God as you did, then where would you go?

Karl Keating presented a hypothetical situation in his news letter today. His was about a truly born again Pastor. Hypothetically speaking, that Pastor would go to Heaven. There is nothing that can keep a truly born again believer out of Heaven. That is, one born again cannot lose his/her salvation. But the problem with hypotheticals is they’re just that - hypotheticals. You cannot accurately present theological/Biblical issues using hypotheticals. Truth regarding salvation is based on revelation, not hypothetical situations. God does far more to/for the believer besides just save him. Regeneration is involved as well, and Christ didn’t just rise from the dead and ascend back to the Father with no further work to do. He sits on the right hand of the Majesty on High as the believer’s Advocate before the Father and his High Priest, always interceding for him.