I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Tim_Hayes]

Pax it serves no purpose to ontinue the discourse with exrc.

He clearly is not interested in the possibility that he is wrong about some doctrine despite all that has been shwn to him.

Exrc is like all the various protestant denominations including the Jehoavas witneess etc, he wants to claim that the Holy Spirit will lead him and has at this point led him to his position. The problme is that everyone who makes such a claim very often has daimetirically opposed beliefs about the same faith or doctrine/practices and yet they all claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit, when obviously they can’t be.

The same old problem arises for people like exrc is that they set themselves up as individual popes, yet when a pope makes a once in a lifetime infalliable decision they get upset about some other person telling them what they should or should not believe.

Prayer is all that can help, for all of us.

In christ

Tim

 

[Pax]

exrc:

…
Phil,grace made us believers, he saves us out of ignorance. It’s his choice to save us not ours.He knows we don’t have the capacity to keep ourselves saved, if we think otherwise, we make fools of ourselves, and make him impudent.

…
…
Your friend Dan!

exrc,

Your method of expression here makes me wonder if you have a correct understanding of God’s grace.

Please note, Dan, that God’s grace does not force us. Therefore, the statement that “grace made us believers” may be incorrect. It would be better to say that grace “enables” us to believe. Since it is a gift it can be accepted or rejected. It can even be accepted and tossed aside later. It is not forced upon us against our will.

It is, indeed, by grace that we are saved, but it is also by grace that “we persevere” and that “we endure” until the end. It is also by grace that we are able to love God and neighbor. It is also by grace that we avoid sin. It is also by grace that we will “conquer” as stated in the Book of Revelation.

Your statements sound as if grace does nothing to us and that it has no regenerative or empowering character. It is a severe shortcoming in Protestant teaching when it is claimed that justification is merely imputed. Remember Isaiah 55:11 where God says, "…so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Righteousness is “infused” and the sinner is regenerated and empowered to do the will of God.

 

[exrc]

exrc,

I have cut out much of your post because we have addressed so much of it already. You are ever so wrong Dan, when you claim that all sin is “mortal.” Once again, it is not you that has been led unto all truth but the Catholic Church which says that "not

all sin is mortal."
One of the Catholic Church’s earliest bishops wrote, “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.”
You can read this quote in 1 John 5:16.Are you serious?

Name the sin that Jesus’ sacrifice was not powerful enough to pay for.

Let me give you a practical application of this verse.

A man is born again (has been saved), he dabbles with homosexuality again. This man now contracts AIDS. He dies. Was this Gods plan for his christian walk?

Sometimes God takes his kids away and crowns them, and sometimes he crowns them and takes them away.

All sin is “mortal” in the sense that you mean it in. What could be more obvious than original sin. Pull that head out of the sand.

All sin is disobedience!

Your comments about Catholic priests is again typical of your efforts to insult us…

Sometimes I wonder if you actually can comprehend what you are reading.

I was answering an accusation.

Love Dan!

 

[Pax]

Dan,

You stated that “all sin is mortal.” The Catholic church states otherwise because scripture says “not all sin is mortal.” Why are you still arguing with me on this?

You are right to say that all sin is disobedience, but that does not change the fact that some sin is mortal and some sin is not mortal (i.e. venial). Your post does not refute anything that I have stated but you suggest that I need to pull my head out of the sand. Please try to be on task.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Sometimes I wonder if you actually can comprehend what you are reading.

I was answering an accusation.

Love Dan!

Perhaps you do not realize what it is you are saying or how it will be received. When you throw in a remark as you did about Catholic priests you are doing more than you suggest. I don’t think you realize how insensitive your remarks appear to be.

 

[exrc]

Tim Hayes:

EXRC, you hav not thoughtabout your answer corectly.

Yours and my opinions mean nothing my friend.

There is no way to identify the current bible as being the true word of God without accepting the word of those long dead, you ultimately have , to place your faith in God, that he ensured that we humans would correctly record the bible books.

Tim, are you a temple of the Holy Spirit? I am beginning to understand something very disturbing about you. The Spirit knows what he wrote Tim, do you believe John 16:13. I do.

Now tell me this, Protestants have removed some books from the bible claiming that they should not be there, how can they know they do not belong. ,

Here’s a trivia question Tim.

When was the appocrypha officially cannonized as inspired scripture?

Either God guided these men or he did not, You must use your reasoning ability, if God has not ensured the Catholic Faith (or for that matter any other single one Church) to teach the truth from the time of the Apostles to now, then it is impossible to to identify true teaching, plain and simple, it requires definitive action from God

I have no problem with Catholic teaching. Only Roman teaching. You are a Roman apostate, masquerading as a Catholic.

have you not thought about all those orthodox and catholics who believed and practiced many doctrines which you say are sinful/evil from the beginning of Christianity until the reformation. Remember there was essentially no other beliefs other than those of orthodox and catholic which are virtually identical with each other

Yep

Are all those prior to the reformation who practiced the catholic/orthodox faith saved or are they in hell, what is your answer.

Only God knows, But if I had to guess, most are. Remember the wide gate Tim!

Your friend Dan!

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Are you serious?

Name the sin that Jesus’ sacrifice was not powerful enough to pay for.

Love Dan!

Why are you making such a statement/question? No one on this thread has said anything that would suggest that Jesus’ sacrifice is not sufficiently powerful to pay for certain kinds sins. Scripture tells us that Jesus sacrifice is for the sins of “the whole world.” Our point is that not all people will in the end be saved and even all protestants agree with this. We merely take it one step further because scripture shows that even Christians can fall away and lose their salvation. This does not challenge the sufficiency of the complete work of Christ.

Your are making statements that may seem to be on point in your mind, but they really have no practical application to the discussion at hand.

 

[WBB]

Tim Hayes:

Pax it serves no purpose to ontinue the discourse with exrc.

He clearly is not interested in the possibility that he is wrong about some doctrine despite all that has been shwn to him.

Exrc is like all the various protestant denominations including the Jehoavas witneess etc, he wants to claim that the Holy Spirit will lead him and has at this point led him to his position. The problme is that everyone who makes such a claim very often has daimetirically opposed beliefs about the same faith or doctrine/practices and yet they all claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit, when obviously they can’t be.

The same old problem arises for people like exrc is that they set themselves up as individual popes, yet when a pope makes a once in a lifetime infalliable decision they get upset about some other person telling them what they should or should not believe.

Prayer is all that can help, for all of us.

In christ

Tim

You are absolutely right, Tim. exrc has no real understanding of the theologies that he is discussing, so things tend to go in circles.

Perhaps the reason that protestants accept “once saved always saved” is because all sin is equal. In the protestant mind, a little white lie is the exact same as adultery. Once saved always saved is their way out so to speak…it is unnecessary to be restored to grace if you never fall from it. Think about it…you would be hell bound daily for the slightest infraction…AH! But if you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then all of your dirty sins now fall on him. It would appear that in the protestant theology that some are presenting, Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat for our sins.

 

[exrc]

Pax:

Dan,

You stated that “all sin is mortal.” The Catholic church states otherwise because scripture says “not all sin is mortal.” Why are you still arguing with me on this?

Because you are simply wrong!
This is what happens when you are not led by the Spirit. You can’t even let yourself see this simple illustration.

You are right to say that all sin is disobedience, but that does not change the fact that some sin is mortal and some sin is not mortal (i.e. venial). Your post does not refute anything that I have stated but you suggest that I need to pull my head out of the sand. Please try to be on task

Do you deny the wages of sin(all sin) is death?

Do you deny Adam and eve died spiritually because they ate a fruit?

The only reason they didn’t die physically that day is because of Gods mercy, by killing an animal in their stead.

This is the second gospel message in history.

The first being the creation of the Sabbath.

Were Adam and Eve in the perfect will of God before they sinned?

Were they ever in the perfect will of God after they sinned?

Exrc

 

[KLStevens]

** Jesus tells us:

“Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN…either in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME.”
–Matthew 12:31-32 **

 

[WBB]

exrc:

Because you are simply wrong!

I guess that makes St. John wrong, too, so, Pax, don’t feel so bad. You are in good company.

 

[KLStevens]

Tim Hayes:

Pax it serves no purpose to ontinue the discourse with exrc.

He clearly is not interested in the possibility that he is wrong about some doctrine despite all that has been shown to him.

Exrc is like all the various protestant denominations including the Jehoavas witneess etc, he wants to claim that the Holy Spirit will lead him and has at this point led him to his position. The problme is that everyone who makes such a claim very often has daimetirically opposed beliefs about the same faith or doctrine/practices and yet they all claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit, when obviously they can’t be.

The same old problem arises for people like exrc is that they set themselves up as individual popes, yet when a pope makes a once in a lifetime infalliable decision they get upset about some other person telling them what they should or should not believe.

Prayer is all that can help, for all of us.

In christ

Tim

I second that Tim!

Since showing people from history, Scripture, the Apostles, the earliest Christians and the proof of when and with whom Reformation theology began has not been enough…

Prayer seems to be all that can help at this point!

Thanks for your posts.
Sincerely Yours In Christ,
KLStevens

 

[WBB]

exrc:

The only reason they didn’t die physically that day is because of Gods mercy, by killing an animal in their stead.

And your point is? The spiritual death was far worse.

 

[exrc]

WBB:

You are absolutely right, Tim. exrc has no real understanding of the theologies that he is discussing, so things tend to go in circles

.

Perhaps the reason that protestants accept “once saved always saved” is because all sin is equal. In the protestant mind, a little white lie is the exact same as adultery

Now you are on to something Mr. pharisee. They are equally deadly not, not equally innocuous. That is the truth of what we believe. So when ever you may expire, you are always worthy of hell. Thank God for the sufficiency his sons sacrifice. I hope one day you will accept that and be saved.

.

Once saved always saved is their way out so to speak…it is unnecessary to be restored to grace if you never fall from it. Think about it…you would be hell bound daily for the slightest infraction…AH! But if you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then all of your dirty sins now fall on him. It would appear that in the protestant theology that some are presenting, Jesus is the ultimate scapegoat for our sins

As you can see from my previous comment, it is you who cannot understand.

exrc

 

[exrc]

** Jesus tells us: **

"Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN…either in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME."
**–Matthew 12:31-32 **

Believers cannot commit this sin, only unbelievers. It is the blocking of the Holy Spirit from your regeneration. I learned this from a RC priest that I didn’t even like.

exrc

 

[montanaman]

Here’s a funny thought on which I might be mistaken, but think about it: How could Martin Luther have dropped the deuterocanonicals in 1517 if the Church added them in 1546?

Maybe my dates are wrong, but if I’m even remotely correct, then at the very least, the Protestant argument that the Church added the books in 1546 will have to be modified. They’ll have to find a time before the Council of Trent where the Church “added” these books. So, I wonder when that could be…

Sorry to sidetrack the debate. Carry on…

 

[Pax]

exrc:

.

Now you are on to something Mr. pharisee. They are equally deadly not, not equally innocuous. That is the truth of what we believe. So when ever you may expire, you are always worthy of hell. Thank God for the sufficiency his sons sacrifice. I hope one day you will accept that and be saved.

.
As you can see from my previous comment, it is you who cannot understand.

exrc

Read a few different translations of the bible concerning mortal sin. Some use the word “deadly” and some say “unto death.” This means that some sin is deadly and some is not. You do not know scripture or refuse to accept it.

 

[WBB]

exrc:

.

Now you are on to something Mr. pharisee. They are equally deadly not, not equally innocuous. That is the truth of what we believe. So when ever you may expire, you are always worthy of hell. Thank God for the sufficiency his sons sacrifice. I hope one day you will accept that and be saved.

.
As you can see from my previous comment, it is you who cannot understand.

exrc

Spoken like a true protestant. When you can’t argue, you resort to name calling and condemning people as unsaved, because after all, God Almighty let’s you make the distinction as to who is saved or not. Thank heaven salvation doesn’t rest in your hands.

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

I was waiting for Phil’s answer on this one. He didn’t “think,” he just answered with “maybe” this, “maybe” that. I think the truth is, he didn’t want to think about it. Or, he just couldn’t!! Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:12 that all true believers are given the Spirit who is from God so that all might know the things FREELY given to us BY God. Phil, and other RCs on this thread, just can’t grasp what God has FREELY given to us through Christ. I wonder why, based on 1 Cor. 2:12. Is it possible…???

Ozzie-

Thanks for your comments. You seem upset with me to the point of actually being insulting in return. Why? Whenever you speak this way you do not indicate that Jesus is working in your life. Remember: if you do not have love you are nothing. Certainly not in the area of evangelization. Lighten up and be considerate.

In reference to your above comments, you say that you were waiting for my answer to “this one”. Part of the problem is that Dan asked a bunch of questions which he answered himself and then asked several open ended ones. The intent of his questioning was not clear to me - especially in light of the context that he and I are exploring some very limited areas and these questions did not seem to clarify the contradictions we were to be discussing. when I start an answer with “Maybe” it does not mean I am equivocating or being deceptive. It simply means that I don’t know the answer and I am offering a possible solution. For this I get ridicule from you.

As far as your comment “Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:12 that all true believers” I don’t see that. I would say the context seems to be speaking more to the Church in general - some may limit that definition to “true believers” others may not. I happen to believe that I understand what God has given me, though imperfectly. Would that make me a non-believer?

And this statement:

Phil, and other RCs on this thread, just can’t grasp what God has FREELY given to us through Christ. I wonder why, based on 1 Cor. 2:12. **Is it possible…???/**QUOTE]

Ozzie - let me start off by saying - honestly - I forgive you for this lapse in judgement. That is, to presume to know the heart of another and then the audacity to share that presumption in a forum such as this. This is your pride speaking in His absence. “…and all of you - clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another. For God opposes the proud but bestowes favor upon the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may exault you in due time.” 1Peter 5:5-6

Phil

 

[exrc]

Phil,

Did you see my last post to you?