I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[dcdurel]

Ozzie:

Assurance of salvation is based on revelation, not a hypothetical situation. Salvation is a GIFT (Eph. 2:8-9); the question must be, does God take back a gift? Show me in Scripture where it is stated that God actually chooses to take back that gift.

The question must not be “does God take back a gift”. The question must be “can we refuse that gift”… Christianity has always taught that we have a free will to refuse that gift any time we want. By committing mortal sin, we rebel against God. We separate ourselves from God. God does not separate Himself from us. This has always been the teaching. Thus Christians are in hell because they are in unrepentant mortal sin. They do not want to repent. Jesus has become obnoxious to them while they were on earth, because He reminds them that they were doing wrong, of which they did not want to repent. In heaven they would have to obey God, thus they would have to repent. Since they refuse to repent, they go to the only place for those who are unrepentant of mortal sin, and that is hell.
Thus Protestantism has always been dishonest by refusing to answer the clear teachings in scripture that say we can rebel against God by sin and and lose this salvation, instead tries to change the teaching to a straw man that says God cannot take back His gift. The Church has never taught that God takes back His gift. The Church has taught that we can lose this gift by our rebellion. We have quoted verse after verse, which you ignore, because Protestantism is based on a man made tradition, made up by Martin Luther and Calvin of “salvation by faith alone”.

Let me ask you, do the saints in Heaven have free will? At any given moment can they choose not to be in Heaven and leave?

Of course they could choose to do evil, sin, become miserable , and leave. But the reason they are in heaven is because they have choosen what is good. For the same reason people in hell do not ever want to go to heaven. They have chosen not to repent. They hate Jesus because Jesus says what they are doing is wrong. They hate Jesus because in their pride they believe they are right.
For example. If a Christian, because of lust, comes to believe there is nothing wrong with pornography, and he becomes bound by that sin and he enjoys that sin and he refuses to give up the pleasure of that sin, then he will rationalize and say “it hurts no one”. Thus when Jesus says whoever looks at a woman with lust commits adultery, Jesus becomes obnoxious to him. Jesus’s Church becomes obnoxious because the Church teaches always presents the teaching of Jesus. This Christian in his pride will say that Jesus is wrong, and he is right, because his sin “hurts no one”. Thus he cannot repent of a sin in which he thinks he is right. He could not live in heaven where he would have to repent of his sin and obey God. Thus he chooses hell. God still loves those in hell. They are in hell because they refuse to love God by obeying Him. They refuse to repent because they believe God is wrong and they are right.
God forces no one to go to hell. They go there because they hate the teachings of Jesus, thus they hate Jesus and they could not bear to live with Him in heaven.
In summary, the Church and scripture has always taught that Christians have a free will to separate themselves from Jesus by mortal sin, and thus lose that salvation that God wants them to have. These unrepentant Christians choose hell, because in heaven they would have to repent and give up their sin. And this they refuse to do because of pride, they are right, God is wrong.
That is why all those bible verses are there which teach we can lose our salvation by unrepentant sin. Martin Luther knew that, so eventually he had to come up with an even more absurd teaching (titles “Slave Will”) in which he stated that we have no free will, and therefore justify his unrepentance.

 

[Cubby]

SpokenWord said:

Cubby, Thats alot of turkey pasting or is that basting? Oh well, Happy Thanksgiving to you also. God Bless.P/S I like you closing sig.

Thanks, and I like your “handle” - A teacher at our Parish pointed out to the RCIA folks last Thursday night that God’s Word was originally intended to be spoken, not read. She advised us, that when we read the Bible we should read it out loud, and let God speak to us.

Peace.

 

[Magster]

No Catholic should ever profess to know whether anyone is going to hell, or whether anyone will be saved. That call is only for God. If someone told you that you will go to hell because you are not Catholic, that person is misinformed. Catholics should pray for everyone to go to heaven.

 

[Catherine_S]

Des:

Give it up Pax. Ozzie is too far gone to even comprehend the truth about salvation. I’m sitting back laughing at all this rhetoric he’s throwing at you. He takes a verse, such as the one he connects the gnostics with and thinks he can explain exactly what John is talking about by putting his own spin on it. "Oh, since the gnostics thought…blah blah blah, then John meant…blah blah blah. He refuses to see it for what it is.
It is both laughable and disturbing at the same time.

And as for unity. When it comes to morality questions such as homosexuality, abortion, birth control, once saved always saved, divorce, etc. etc. etc. there is zero amongst “all” the Bible only believers. Just believing in basic doctines about the Trinity and His dying for our sins just wont cut it. That isn’t unity. For us Catholics, at least we know when something is intrinsically evil or not. I know a guy who bounced from church to church cause what they preach doesn’t agree with his reading of the Gospel. Boy, i’m glad i’m not in his shoes.
.
And when he talks of bringing us out of the Catholic Church he’s only kidding himself. The Catholics here are all too well grounded in our faith to fall for such nonsense. We aren’t the Catholics who know nothing about our faith and easily led away like sheep to the slaughter such as the ones who claim to be so only by name yet don’t even know who the Pope is. Those so called Catholic are the only ones that may fall for his heresy.

Anyways Pax, I envy you to have such patience with this fellow, even when the outcome will most likely be the same.

God Bless.

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

For the sake of being re-justified before God? Absolutely!

Ozzie - please be careful with your words - you almost gave poor Dan a heart attack . What you are saying is that you are sure that we don’t need to continue to confess our sins in order to be re-justified - correct? The original issue, however, was forgiveness. Do we need to continue to confess our sins for forgiveness or are we forgiven them already? This then led to the discussion of the consequences of unconfessed sin…

1 Jn. 1:9 is the only place in the N.T. Epistles that speaks about the confessing of sins in respect to soteriology. I’m missing your point - does the fact that it’s only mentioned once mitigate it’s value? Is it stated anywhere that we don’t need to continue to confess our sins directly (ie, not by implication)?

But the backdrop of John’s letters is the false teachings of the Gnostics…
Do you have a biblical source for this contention or is it extra-biblical? My NAS agrees…“The specific heresy described in this letter cannot be identified exactly, but it is a form of docetism or gnosticism…” How do we decide when an extrabiblical information source is OK to consult?

…John, using the personal pronoun “we” only by personal example, says in 1 Jn. 1:8 that “If we say that we have no sin (as the Gnostics claim), we are deceiving ourselves, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.” Thus describing not a true believer,…

Doesn’t seem to be addressing faith/belief at all - but the condition of failing to recognize one’s sinfulness. This could be an immature “believer”…
, but one deceived by the Gnostics who makes God out to be a liar, proving that His word is not in him (1:10).

Actually, anyone, gnostic or not who claims that their sin doesn’t separate them from God would be in this category.

But "if we confess our sins (that is, agree with the gospel message that ALL have personally sinned and fall short of the glory of God)
I disagree with this analysis. John seems pretty straightforward in his statement. I’d be willing to wager a lot that 99.99% of Christians who read this passage would take it on it’s face value. In your opinion does it require extra biblical insight to interpret properly? I mean I don’t really know the history surrounding early Christianity that well. Why isn’t it covered more explicitly in the bible? Some might even consider your extrabiblical references which claim to lead to “the truth” independent of the Word a form of gnosticism in itself. I am not one of them though…

continued…

 

[Philthy]

He (God) is faithful (i.e., to Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross faithfulness is a characteristic of God. You are inserting bias without basis), and just (legally righteous because of the cross - justice exists outside of the legal realm - you are narrowing the verse again without obvious justification) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness (1:9).

Ozzie haven’t you left out some important stuff from this verse? Here is the NAS version:

“IF we acknowledge our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing”

Notice the clear intent: Once we acknowledge our sins He forgives them. New sin requires new acknoledgement and recieves new forgiveness. This forgiveness is still all based on Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

John 1:9 is not addressing believers. This is, at best, is unknown. If it’s for unbelievers, why is it in the Bible? You think they’re gonna be reading the Bible? In fact, if you look at chapter 2 of the same letter it starts out with: “My children(a term of pastoral love), I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin.” He is definitely talking to the community of believers. He may also, simultaneously, be addressing gnostics, but it would be a mistake to think that believers aren’t being addressed here.

A true believer, whether in the John’s day (influenced by Gnostic teachings), or in this present day, has recognized that sin is in him and has confessed (agreed with God) that he is a sinner in need of redemption through Christ’s death on the cross.

Agreed

True believers are nowhere required in Scripture to live out the rest of their lives confessing sins and moment-by-moment receiving forgiveness from God based on their personal confessions.

I hear you. I’ll have to give that some thought and reflect on the Gospels as well as the Pauline letters.

True believers are not required to constantly confess sins in order to receive ongoing forgiveness

Again, I’ll have to give this some more thought. But I am listening…

, but are exhorted to shun sin and to “walk in a manner worthy of the calling” with which they have been called (Eph. 4:1; 5:1, 8; 1 Thess. 2:12. In other words, they are to walk as who they are, “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2). ```

Thanks Ozzie. It’s so confusing to hear so many apparently valid viewpoints. Information overload. Not only that, but now I’m getting feedback that believing in Christ as Lord and Savior isn’t enough - I have to believe in specific details also. What happened to “For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead then you will be saved.”?

Phil

 

[Catherine_S]

exrc:

If you look at the surrounding verses you will see that these people were never saved, they merely rejected the truth that was revealed to them

ex-rc and ozzie

The question you have to ask yourself is this: ‘Where did we get the Bible?’ Until you can give a satisfactory answer, **you aren’t in much of a position to rely on the authority of Scripture **or **to claim that you can be certain that you know how to accurately interpret it. **
**After you answer that question—and there’s really only one answer that can be given—**you have some other important questions to ask: ‘If the Bible, which we received from the Catholic Church, is our sole rule of faith, who’s to do the interpreting?’ And ‘Why are there so many conflicting understandings among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists even on central doctrines that pertain to salvation?’"

---

** Any Christian accepting** the authority of the New Testament does so**,** whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust** that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon.**

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists agree on the essentials, but disagree on secondary matters."

** Where in Scripture** do we find some doctrines listed as essential, others as ‘secondary’? **The answer is: ‘nowhere’. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists disagree on central issues such as baptismal regeneration and the necessity of baptism (is it merely a sign to other Christians, or does it have a real role in the process of justification?), whether or not one can forfeit salvation (some Protestants say that’s impossible to do, others say it is possible). You all claim to be ‘Bible-only Christians,’ but which group is right?" **

**I will leave you to ponder these things. **
Shalom

 

[exrc]

MariaG:

Your welcome. And I do understand, because I came from a fundamental/pentecostal background. Many of my friends who are still there feel exactly as you do. I have not noticed any personal attacks by you but if I believed what you did, your words about the One Holy Catholic Church would be mild. Truly, I do understand. And if this makes any sense, I do appreciate what you think you are doing. Only God can truly judge the heart, but I do believe your heart is in the right place. You’re wrong But your heart is in the right place:heart:

Maria, are you born again? If so when did that happen?

Who is stealing the gumball? A 2 year old? A 4 year old? An adult? Knowledge of what you are doing is wrong is required. Stealing for an adult with full knowledge of what they are doing is a mortal sin. Even if it is just a gumball.

Is a venial sin willful disobedience?

I will definitely look for one, but silence from ECF is not mean they do not agree, it means there was no disagreement at all. I have started to study them, but my walk to the Catholic Church had nothing at all to do with ECF, it was the Bible alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I still love to find it in the Bible. To this date, I have not found one thing in the teaching of the Catholic Church that contradicts the Bible.

Thanks for looking.

That brings up an interesting question though. If you look at the ECF, what do you think about the Real Presence? The ECF talked quite a bit on it. They believed in the Real Presence. I guess this would be a different thread, but on a quick answer, do you believe in the RP? If not, how do you square that with the ECF?

If you take a look at EFC writings, and you’re honest you will find a wide variety of beliefs on this subject. Not a lot of agreement.

If it does not matter what the ECF say, why do you want to know what they said on it concerning mortal and venial sins?

For your sake, so you get it from the horses mouth. I also find them interesting to read.

And finally, I asked for your interpretation of those verses. What do you say they mean if Catholics are wrong. You did ask for one verse saying not all sin is deadly, I gave you one. I will look for ECF on it, but what is your take on it?

Physical death, not spiritual death.

Your sister in Christ, (whether you believe it or not!),
Maria

Bless you! Dan

 

[StephiePea]

Wow…This topic has really taken off. Can someone brief me on what is going on?

 

[Catherine_S]

StephiePea:

Wow…This topic has really taken off. Can someone brief me on what is going on?

**Just like a cat chasing its tail… around and around !!! Eventually it will get tired because it leads no where ! ! The reason for 20 - 30,000 different Protest-ant groups !! At this point in the trend " Once saved always saved". **
God Bless!!!
Shalom

 

[exrc]

**

ex-rc and ozzie

**

The question you have to ask yourself is this: ‘Where did we get the Bible?’
From same person who wrote it silly,( No matter how man tried to mess it up God still prevailed) the Holy Spirit of course.

**

Until you can give a satisfactory answer

**, **you aren’t in much of a position to rely on the authority of Scripture **or to claim that you can be certain that you know how to accurately interpret it. I trust the Holy Spirit, he can work through even the most seedy of Characters. Look at Jacob!
**

After you answer that question—and there’s really only one answer that can be given—

**you have some other important questions to ask: ‘If the Bible, which we received from the Catholic Church, No, the Holy Spirit. The CC was only a pawn, as is me, and you.
**

who’s to do the interpreting?’

**
The Holy Spirit! Don’t you believe John 16:13 ? I do.
**

**And **

**‘Why are there so many conflicting understandings among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists even on central doctrines that pertain to salvation?’" some are temples of the Holy Spirit , and some are not.

**

Any Christian accepting

** the authority of the New Testament does so**,** whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust** that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon.** Nope! Guess who? God’s will, will not be hindered by anything.

**

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists agree

** on the essentials, but disagree on secondary matters." That is most often true ,and we don’t have a magisterium. Imagine that!

---

Where in Scripture

** do we find some doctrines listed as essential, others as ‘secondary’? The same place we find the trinity, or OSAS, careful exegesis! **

Evangelicals and Fundamentalists disagree on

** central issues such as baptismal regeneration and the necessity of baptism (is it merely a sign to other Christians, or does it have a real role in the process of justification?), whether or not one can forfeit salvation (some Protestants say that’s impossible to do, others say it is possible). You all claim to be ‘Bible-only Christians,’** but which group is right?" ** Where do you get your info. from?
**

**I will leave you to ponder these things. **

**
Shalom

You as well, Your friend Dan!

 

[exrc]

** The reason for 20 - 30,000 different Protest-ant groups !! At this point in the trend " Once saved always saved". **
God Bless!!!
Shalom

Where do you get this number from?

 

[StephiePea]

**Just like a cat chasing its tail… around and around !!! Eventually it will get tired because it leads no where ! ! The reason for 20 - 30,000 different Protest-ant groups !! At this point in the trend " Once saved always saved". **
God Bless!!!
Shalom

Oh, I used to believe in once saved, always saved. I actually thought everyone did. When I learned this wasn’t the case, I was actually very scared that I might not go to heaven. But then I was told of the things God put in place to help us…like confession, giving to the poor, loving our nieghbors, and doing pennants. I realize that this is more fitting to what the bible actually says. The problem is that people interpret the bible differently. But if you just stop trying to disect it, and take it for what it actually says…it becomes very clear what the right thing is. I love the Catholic Church for this. It took my Protestant knowledge of the bible, and magnified it…meaning that I was blinded, and have been set free! Praise God!

 

[exrc]

Philthy:

Ozzie haven’t you left out some important stuff from this verse? Here is the NAS version:

"

IF we acknowledge our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing"
What is confessing Phil? The greek tells us that it is saying the same thing. In this case it is saying the same thing as God, or acknowledging what we have done wrong. Do we need to find some special place to do this, or some special way. I say no. As long as we determine in our heart that we should not partake of such things then we will be delivered from them. Resist the devil and he will flee.

You are confusing atonement with repentance.We can repent from sins which have already been atoned for, but not as a contingency for our salvation. We as children need to be conformed to the likeness of Christ, for the purpose of being useful to our Father. Not to keep ourselves worthy of salvation! Do you see the difference? We will never be worthy of salvation! Thats what grace is all about.

Your friend Dan!

 

[exrc]

Oh, I used to believe in once saved, always saved. I actually thought everyone did. When I learned this wasn’t the case, I was actually very scared that I might not go to heaven. But then I was told of the things God put in place to help us…like confession, giving to the poor, loving our nieghbors, and doing pennants. I realize that this is more fitting to what the bible actually says. The problem is that people interpret the bible differently. But if you just stop trying to disect it, and take it for what it actually says…it becomes very clear what the right thing is. I love the Catholic Church for this. It took my Protestant knowledge of the bible, and magnified it…meaning that I was blinded, and have been set free! Praise God!

Which sin which Christ has already made atonement for, will keep you out of heaven? You were scared because you didn’t understand Jesus’ sacrifice. Comfort comes with maturity, not from joining the RC church my dear. They have drawn you in and made you another victim, as I was.

In love Dan!

 

[Catherine_S]

Oh, I used to believe in once saved, always saved. I actually thought everyone did. When I learned this wasn’t the case, I was actually very scared that I might not go to heaven. But then I was told of the things God put in place to help us…like confession, giving to the poor, loving our nieghbors, and doing pennants. I realize that this is more fitting to what the bible actually says. The problem is that people interpret the bible differently. But if you just stop trying to disect it, and take it for what it actually says…it becomes very clear what the right thing is. I love the Catholic Church for this. It took my Protestant knowledge of the bible, and magnified it…meaning that I was blinded, and have been set free! Praise God!

:clapping:Cheers !!! If you need a little inspirational one day…I am listing a web address on the bottom of my message… 3 or 400 converts to Catholism…most of them previous Protestant Ministers**…Christ is renewing His Church and the Holy Spirit certainly works in mysterous ways indeed !:yup: ! The road that leads to Rome is very busy indeed !!** I too love the Catholic Church.** Happy Thanksgiving Day!!**

Shalom
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=1&SeriesID=-6892289

 

[exrc]

To all RC’s,

Philthy, and Maria G.seem to be the only honest RC’s on this forum.

I thank you both for your candor. Even if I don’t agree with anything you may say.

Blessings to you both especially! And all others as well!

Your loving friend Dan!

 

[uniChristian]

JesusFreak16:

I am Protestant. How many of you already “know” that I will not be going to heaven, even though you are not omni-present and you cannot see my heart?
I hope none, but there are bound to be some… I want an honest answer, even though I know I am not going to hell. “How do I know I am not?” do you ask? Well, I do not see the need to explain to you… If you would like me to, please feel free to ask me.
I am not afraid. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and you do not want to hurt me, you want the best for me. I have every confidence in you.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

Lisa I am not a Roman Catholic so maybe you don’t want my opinion and I won’t offer it. The answer for your question is found in the Word of God. Let me direct you to 1John5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Lisa if you believe that Jesus is Messiah and you accept his sacrifice his Word says that you are going to heaven. No one on earth is capable of making an eternal decision about your salvation. This is something that is solely your responsibility. Read his Word and stay in fellow ship because the day is approaching. Love in Christ.

 

[exrc]

**

Cheers !!! If you need a little inspirational one day…I am listing a web address on the bottom of my message… 3 or 400 converts to Catholism…most of them previous Protestant Ministers…

** "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another "(Mat. 24:10)

These are sad times indeed!

exrc

 

[Des]

Let me ask you, do the saints in Heaven have free will? At any given moment can they choose not to be in Heaven and leave?

The Saints in Heaven have free will but will never again sin or have the slightest urge to leave since they now share the Beatific Vision of God.(Seeing God face to Face). Sin will no longer be enticing.