I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

faithfulness is a characteristic of God. You are inserting bias without basis"

Yes, certainly faithfulness is an attribute of God, but He is being faithful to something here, Phil. In respect to forgiving sins He is faithful to the self-less sacrifice of His beloved Son - “I am writing to you little children because your sins ARE FORGIVEN you FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE” (1 Jn. 2:12).

justice exists outside of the legal realm - you are narrowing the verse again without obvious justification

Justice is a thoroughly legal term. That’s the whole point, my friend, God does not violate His own just or righteous character when He freely justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (see Rom. 3:23-26). That’s the glorious power and wisdom of the cross (Rom. 1:16-17). Not only can He justly forgive us all our sins because of the cross of Christ, says John, but He also cleanses us from all unrighteousness through Christ’s shed blood. The Law of Moses demonstrated that only by the shedding of blood could sins be forgiven and the sinner cleansed (Heb. 9:22). But the sacrifice of bulls and goats prescribed by the Law could not permanently “take away” sins, nor clear one’s conscience of their guilt (Heb. 9:14), only cover them year after year. That’s what “atonement” means, “to cover.” Those constant, yearly sacrifices were only a type of Christ - they looked forward to the one FINAL, blood sacrifice for all sins, for all time, by which God could permanently forgive and cleans all who believe, trust, rest in the Person and work of His beloved Son.

HEB 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

HEB 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

HEB 10:12-14 "…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God…for by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

The “sanctified” are those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ (see Heb. 10:10; cf. Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2).

“IF we acknowledge our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing”

Yes. But this is said in contrast to those who claim they “have no sin” and therefore “the truth is not in them” (1 Jn. 1:8). The believer “acknowledges” (declares to be true) his sinful state, turns to Christ by faith and God, through/because of Christ, forgives and cleanses him of all unrighteousness (see 1 Cor. 6:11).

Notice the clear intent: Once we acknowledge our sins He forgives them. New sin requires new acknoledgement and recieves new forgiveness. This forgiveness is still all based on Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

This interpretation is out of context. John is speaking in contrast with those previously mentioned who claim they have no “sin,” i.e., no sin nature. Hence, they see no need for the cross, no need for a substitutionary blood sacrifice, no need to be cleansed of sins which they claim they do not have in the first place - and the truth is not in them (vs. 8). The acknowledgment of sins and God’s cleansing, based on Christ’s blood sacrifice, are both one time events. There is no teaching here by John of perpetual confession for perpetual cleansing. *“I am writing to you little children, because your sins ARE forgiven you FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE” *(1 Jn. 2:12). We who are forgiven and cleansed of all sins are to now walk in a manner worthy of the calling by which we have been called (Eph. 4:1; 5:8; 1 Thess 2:12).

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

A) All humans have been forgiven all past and future sins because of the crucifixion.

B) The forgiveness of sins occurs at the time one becomes a Christian, and they never need to be confessed again **for forgiveness. **Phil

B is more correct. HOWEVER…Jesus Christ accomplished the work of redemption on the cross in respect to all the sins of the world. When one truly believes in Him that finished work of redemption is applied to him, delivering him from the domain of darkness, and transferring him to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM he has redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

God can deal with sin in no other way than through the absolute value of the blood of His Son; and when sin has been laid on the Substitute, it can NEVER be laid back on the sinner, or on any other. In the cross of Christ, the question of a possible condemnation because of sin is adjusted FOREVER!!!

It’s really quite simple, Phil. Why do you struggle so?

 

[Des]

One thing is abundandly clear to me: Catholics who convert to Protestantism were never mature Catholics and were often completely ignorant of their alledged faith. And when they convert to Protestantism they discover “something” in place of the “nothing” they had and conclude that the RC Church was nothing -You got that right. I have been in contact with four ex Catholics turned Protestants lately and they are very confused and ignorant.

One guy said proudly he was a Cathlic before and knows how wrong they are about things according to the true word. During our conversation I brought up the Eucharist to which his reply was, “What is that?”

The other says all Churches are the same and many times says her Rosary at night.

The third one says that she likes her church better because the priests in the Cathlic Church are boring.

And the 4th one goes to a protestant Church and confesses she is still waiting for the Pope to Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Oh, and they all read their Bible.

 

[Ozzie]

SPOKENWORD:

Brother Ozzie, Are back sliders saved if they stay in that state? If so, Why do we continue to pray for them? God Bless.

Is there not great peace and comfort when one walks closely with the Lord? Is it not better that he fruitful, used by the Holy Spirit to the glory of Christ? Why wouldn’t you pray for a brother who maybe has become weak in faith for some reason or another? Do you know his heart? Have you experienced his burden? Are we just to pass judgment on him and brand him a “backslider?”

1THESS 5:14 “And we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men.”

 

[Des]

I just want to thank ozzie and exrc for being fine examples how easily one can be mislead when reading Scripture as they passionately quote verse after verse being “guided” by the Holy Spirit while Infallibly telling us what it means.

I especially would like any protestants out there who do not agree with these two gentlemen’s once saved always saved heresy, to ask themselves if this is what Jesus wanted when He left you guys the Bible as your sole rule of faith. Confusion among the faithfull when reading His written Word.

 

[Philthy]

Originally Posted by Philthy
*A) All humans have been forgiven all past and future sins because of the crucifixion.

B) The forgiveness of sins occurs at the time one becomes a Christian, and they never need to be confessed again **for forgiveness. *Phil

B is more correct. HOWEVER…Jesus Christ accomplished the work of redemption on the cross in respect to all the sins of the world. When one truly believes in Him that finished work of redemption is applied to him, delivering him from the domain of darkness, and transferring him to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM he has redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

God can deal with sin in no other way than through the absolute value of the blood of His Son; and when sin has been laid on the Substitute, it can NEVER be laid back on the sinner, or on any other. In the cross of Christ, the question of a possible condemnation because of sin is adjusted FOREVER!!!

It’s really quite simple, Phil. Why do you struggle so?

Ozzie: I am so proud of you! Thank you for simply choosing from the provided answers and then explaining your intention fully. Our good “brother” Dan and I struggled with this format before finally seeing it’s beauty and efficacy.

With respect to the blue bold above you have finally clarified your stance on the application of FORGIVENESS of sin. This clarification was necessary because of your earlier contention that “one does not believe in Christ to’ get his sins forgiven’”. And now it is clear that yes, with respect to forgiveness, belief is required. You had us all scared for a while there! But what is really going on, as you explain, is that the eternal, once for all sacrifice of Christ is being applied AT A LATER POINT IN TIME than Christs earthly sacrifice actually occurred - the point in time that the person becomes a Christian. This brings us to our next point which is bolded in green…
I agree with your statement. Sin that has been FORGIVEN and ATONED for can never be laid back on the sinner. The only difference in our theology is that I feel that the eternal sacrifice of Christ CONTINUES TO BE APPLIED TO OUR CURRENT NEED as it arises. I can’t be sinning and not remorseful and expect forgiveness. I must remain faithful and confess my sins with a contrite heart. In doing so I have the eternal forgivenss merited by Christ ACTUALLY applied to my need.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Phil

 

[Ozzie]

Philthy:

I agree with your statement. Sin that has been FORGIVEN and ATONED for can never be laid back on the sinner. The only difference in our theology is that I feel that the eternal sacrifice of Christ CONTINUES TO BE APPLIED TO OUR CURRENT NEED as it arises. I can’t be sinning and not remorseful and expect forgiveness. I must remain faithful and confess my sins with a contrite heart. In doing so I have the eternal forgivenss merited by Christ ACTUALLY applied to my need.Happy Thanksgiving,Phil

Thanks, happy TG to you too.

Sorry, but what you “feel” is diametrically opposed to what the Word of God actually REVEALS. You completely avoided the Scripture texts I provided. “For He delievered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:13-14). The WHOLE work of redemption is applied to the believer at the time of belief. The believer is FULLY redeemed, fully forgiven of ALL sins. Scripture nowhere reveals a piecemeal forgiveness, no more than it reveals a peacemeal redemption, salvation or justification.

What you are blatantly denying is Christ’s finished, once for all, redemptive work on the cross. 1 John 1:9 says that the sinner must confess, agree with God, that he has sinned, that sin is in him, and God is faithful and just to forgive him of his sins and to cleanse him of ALL unrighteousness. There is nothing there that suggests that he must continue to confess sins for a piecemeal forgiveness. 1 John 2:1-2 does not go on to say if anyone sins he must confess them, but that he has an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins. In verse 12 John writes, “I am writing you little children because YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN YOU.”

This REVEALED truth nullifies the unbiblical idea that a believer can commit a “mortal” sin and destroy all that Christ accomplished FOR Him (total redemption and reconciliation to God) and all whom he is IN Christ. Being no longer in Adam, but Christ, the Last Adam, and what Christ “atoned” for is then laid back on the sinner. This a blasphemous doctrine!!!

Salvation and forgiveness of sins is not based on what you “feel,” Phil, but on what God has REVEALED in His written Word. “His Word is truth.”

 

[MariaG]

exrc and Ozzie,

Could either/ both of you define the word assurance? Does assurance mean Confidence?

Thank you,

Maria

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Ozzie:

Is there not great peace and comfort when one walks closely with the Lord? Is it not better that he fruitful, used by the Holy Spirit to the glory of Christ? Why wouldn’t you pray for a brother who maybe has become weak in faith for some reason or another? Do you know his heart? Have you experienced his burden? Are we just to pass judgment on him and brand him a “backslider?”

1THESS 5:14 “And we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men.”

Br.Ozzie, Of course we continue to pray for them,but you didnt answer my question. Are backsliders saved if they stay in that state? Calling them backsliders is the state that there are in and how we address them in our prayers. No one is judging them. God Bless

 

[Catherine_S]

Des:

I just want to thank ozzie and exrc for being fine examples how easily one can be mislead when reading Scripture as they passionately quote verse after verse being “guided” by the Holy Spirit while Infallibly telling us what it means.

I especially would like any protestants out there who do not agree with these two gentlemen’s once saved always saved heresy, to ask themselves if this is what Jesus wanted when He left you guys the Bible as your sole rule of faith. Confusion among the faithfull when reading His written Word.

 

[Des]

When one truly believes in Him that finished work of redemption is applied to him

It still amazes me how these guys cant accept that “True Fath” and “Good Works” are perfectly conneted to one another. True Faith is automatically wanting to do Good Works or else how can it be true.

 

[Catherine_S]

Des:

It still amazes me how these guys cant accept that “True Fath” and “Good Works” are perfectly conneted to one another. True Faith is automatically wanting to do Good Works or else how can it be true.

**Moved by the love we receive through pure grace there is always a **spontaneous response outward from self…always towards others… and to service. Confirmation James2: 14-26
Shalom

Add on…Catholic teaching on James:
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

 

[Ozzie]

MariaG:

Could either/ both of you define the word assurance? Does assurance mean Confidence?

“Assurance” simply means that those who are truly saved may know without a doubt that they ARE saved (please read Rom. 4:25-5:1-2).

No time in salvation history has assurance of salvation been made so definite than during this Church age. We do not rest in prophetic hope, but in the historical FACT of an historical EVENT when God, two-thousand years ago had His judgment day on sin at the cross of Jesus Christ. And based on that historical event God can not only forever forgive the sinner but also declare (reckon) the believing sinner righteous. Not meaning that he has any righteousness of his own, or that “the ‘merits’ of Christ are imputed to him” (a fiction of theology); but that God, acting in righteousness, reckons (declares) righteous the ungodly person who trusts in Christ alone (please read Rom. 4:5; cf. Jn. 3:14-18) - because he places the believer in the FULL VALUE of the infinite work of Christ on the cross, and transfers him INTO Christ Risen, who becomes his righteousness (please read 2 Cor. 5:21).

Four things assure us of our salvation, Maria:

1. Christ’s work on the cross. The non-reversible, historical, sacrificial death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. In other words, a vacant cross (a crucifix is not a true symbol of salvation reality), and an empty tomb. What was laid on Christ 2000 years ago on the cross, as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, can NEVER be laid back on the believer. Sin is not the issue of salvation, BELIEF is: “…that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.”
2. Christ’s continual work in Heaven: 1. As the believer’s High Priest He always lives to make intercession for him (Heb. 7:25). 2. If we sin, He is our righteous Advocate before the Father (1 Jn. 2:1).
3. The revealed truth that God has reckoned (declared) righteous, justified, all the ungodly who trust in Christ’s historical work on their behalf (Rom. 4:4-5).

*“For this reason it is BY FAITH, that it might be in accordance with GRACE *(divine favor), in order that the promise may be CERTAIN to all the descendants, not only of those who are of the Law (believing Jews), *but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham (believing Gentiles), who is the father of us all” *(Rom. 4:16).

1. The revealed truth that the true believer is no longer in Adam, but in Christ Risen, the “Last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45; cf. Eph. 2:10), positionally seated with Him in the heavenly (Eph. 2:5-6). Jesus did not only die FOR our sins but He also died UNTO sin, once for all (Rom. 6:10), and His relationship to sin is now that of the believer’s, “died unto it,” now being IN CHRIST RISEN.
2. The gift of the Holy Spirit who not only indwells the true believer and regenerates him, but He is given as a pledge (down payment, earnest) of the inheritance we have in Christ (2 Cor. 1:21-22; 2 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 1:14; 4:30).

There are many more, but this will suffice. If you have believed in Christ, Maria, according to God’s Word, you can rest in Him and be assured of your eternal salvation. Men within the Church, and without, have repudiated these divine truths since Apostolic days, but God has written them in His inspired, inerrant Word for all generation to know and be assured (2 Pet. 2:1).

 

[Ozzie]

SPOKENWORD:

Br.Ozzie, Of course we continue to pray for them,but you didnt answer my question. Are backsliders saved if they stay in that state? Calling them backsliders is the state that there are in and how we address them in our prayers. No one is judging them. God Bless

Personally I don’t use the term, too ambiguous and categorically judgmental. I’ll make it short and simple for you: Anyone truly born again is saved, period! This is a work of God. No one can cause himself to be un-born again, and nowhere does it reveal that a redeemed one can ever be unredeemed, that a justified one can be unjustified, that one called into sainthood is driven back into being a condemned sinner. One is saved by GRACE through faith alone - but when the believer is saved, brother, who saves him? Himself or God? (Hint: 1 Tim. 1:8-10; Titus 3:4-7).

 

[Ozzie]

**TO: SPOKENWORD ** Sorry, bro., correction on last post. Should be 2 Tim. 1:8-10. If you were going to look up those verses, anyway, most don’t bother.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

**TO: SPOKENWORD ** Sorry, bro., correction on last post. Should be 2 Tim. 1:8-10. If you were going to look up those verses, anyway, most don’t bother.

Br.Ozzie, Thanks for the verses. Of course we are saved by Gods grace. Ill leave this discussion between you and our christian bretheren.I disagree with you because if what you say is true I could fall back into my old ways and not have to worry about my salvation.[not that I would want to] Makes no sense to me. Let us pray for Godly wisdom and understanding. We both cannot be right.God Bless.

 

[MariaG]

Ozzie,

Thanks for the explanation. I am confident of my salvation. In fact I would even say I know I am going to heaven. In fact, as newly saved Christian, I got up with about 4 others and talked about my salvation and how I know I am saved.

The difference is that in the Church that I learned about confidence of salvation, they believed that you could choose to walk away from God. In fact, walk away from your salvation.

I believe you said you could not do horrible things and still be a Christian, Yes? (or am I mixing people up?)

So would it be a fair statement to say that someone, no matter what they said they were, would not really be a Christian if they committed murder, since a truly saved Christian wouldn’t/couldn’t? walk away from Christ and do such a thing?

Or is it more accurate as spokenword stated that you could be saved, but then at some time in your life start to “live like the devil and still go to heaven”?

Either way, it would contradict what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me about salvation and free will. I know you disagree, but then the Catholic Church and every Protestant denomination I have attended (four) disagree with you.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Philthy]

Ozzie:

Thanks, happy TG to you too.

Sorry, but what you “feel” is diametrically opposed to what the Word of God actually REVEALS. You completely avoided the Scripture texts I provided. "For He delievered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:13-14). The WHOLE work of redemption is applied to the believer at the time of belief. The believer is FULLY redeemed, fully forgiven of ALL sins. Scripture nowhere reveals a piecemeal forgiveness, no more than it reveals a peacemeal redemption, salvation or justification.

What you are blatantly denying is Christ’s finished, once for all, redemptive work on the cross. 1 John 1:9 says that the sinner must confess, agree with God, that he has sinned, that sin is in him, and God is faithful and just to forgive him of his sins and to cleanse him of ALL unrighteousness. There is nothing there that suggests that he must continue to confess sins for a piecemeal forgiveness. 1 John 2:1-2 does not go on to say if anyone sins he must confess them, but that he has an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins. In verse 12 John writes, “I am writing you little children because YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN YOU.”

This REVEALED truth nullifies the unbiblical idea that a believer can commit a “mortal” sin and destroy all that Christ accomplished FOR Him (total redemption and reconciliation to God) and all whom he is IN Christ. Being no longer in Adam, but Christ, the Last Adam, and what Christ “atoned” for is then laid back on the sinner. This a blasphemous doctrine!!!

Salvation and forgiveness of sins is not based on what you “feel,” Phil, but on what God has REVEALED in His written Word. “His Word is truth.”

Thanks for the thoughtful explanation Ozzie. I didn’t mean to ignore anything you sent - I simply haven’t gotten around to it. I have decided to re-read the entire new testament in light of this discussion and see where it leads…

One thing I am glad we cleared up: Although Christs sacrifice occured 2000 years ago, its application is an ongoing event. This in no way detracts from the glory of that event, nor it’s completeness.

Amen for common ground. I will look at the stuff posted.

Thanks again,

Phil

 

[Catherine_S]

SPOKENWORD:

Of course we are saved by Gods grace**…I disagree with you because if what you say is true I could fall back into my old ways and not have to worry about my salvation.[not that I would want to] **Makes no sense to me. Let us pray for Godly wisdom and understanding. We both cannot be right.God Bless.

Past Ephesians 2:8–9:"For by grace you have been*saved *through faith."

**Present **Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

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**Future **Romans 13:11 “our salvation is nearer than when we first believed” (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5)

1 Corinthians 15:1–2, Paul says, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain." So, you could believe, but fail to hold fast to the gospel, and not be saved (cf. 2 Pet. 2:20).
**Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will “take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city” (Rev 22:19).
**Matthew 5: "**Your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. . . . Whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
We are commanded to obey God’s law. **Jesus warned us of the consequences in Matthew 25: "**Then they will answer and say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The Church knows that though we do nothing to earn salvation, we are still free to reject it.

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****Shalom

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[StSteverino]

B is more correct. HOWEVER…Jesus Christ accomplished the work of redemption on the cross in respect to all the sins of the world.

Yet, all the world is not saved. That would be universalism, which in the main Orthodox, Catholics and Protestant reject.

When one*** truly believes***
What is true belief? It is the one that is lived out in the obedience of faith, not merely conformance to an interior opinion.
in Him that finished work of redemption is applied to him, delivering him from the domain of darkness, and transferring him to the kingdom of His beloved Son, IN WHOM he has redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14).

The KJV says this:
13** Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:**
***So far as I can see there is no conflict between the text and Catholic Teaching. ***

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***There is a sense in which you are correct. Christ makes our salvation possible, but not easy. No one reminds us of that more than Paul who urges us to imitate him and finish the race. ***

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***Yet God, being all knowing, knows the Final Elect. We however to not live in the Eternal Now with Him just yet, so we have free will in the present moment and must, as others have pointed out, abide with him. ***

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***The call of God is irrevocable however. We, the Faithful in this time and place, are counted Redeemed but not Elect. We do not know for certain that anyone is in Hell, but we are daring God with impious pride if we exalt ourselves by thinking we have mastered ‘true belief’ and cannot fall. This is a lie of the devil, who was a liar and a murderer from the begining. ***

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One perennial problem for folks like you Ozzie is what to do about backsliders and ‘carnal Christians’. The answer is usually either ’ they will be saved as if by fire’(purgatory?) or they weren’t really saved to begin with.

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If you can fool yourself and others, then I guess all that Blessed Assurance Fanny Crosby crooned about isn’t what its cracked up to be.

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I think its much easier to just believe and follow what the Church has taught from earliest times and is supported by the whole counsel of scripture, not just selected bible quoting: that when we are are baptized into Christ we recieve both grace and a called office, but we must pick up Our cross and follow Him by living out that call and manifesting those graces in a love that makes Christ real to the world.

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Works salvation? If ‘Faith Salvation’ abolishes the Sermon on the Mount or renders it of null effect, than I guess I will go with "works’ salvation, since The Christ never taught what you and other once saved always saved believers preach.

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Yours in Charity,

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Steve
**

**
God can deal with sin in no other way than through the absolute value of the blood of His Son; and when sin has been laid on the Substitute, it can NEVER be laid back on the sinner, or on any other. In the cross of Christ, the question of a possible condemnation because of sin is adjusted FOREVER!!!

It’s really quite simple, Phil. Why do you struggle so?