I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Ozzie]

SPOKENWORD:

I disagree with you because if what you say is true I could fall back into my old ways and not have to worry about my salvation.[not that I would want to]

BINGO*…“Not that I would want to”* is the key. When one is saved regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs as well, and along with it an inward desire to be pleasing to the Lord, and a joy of one’s own salvation. I answered your question as you asked it, but “backslider” is too ambiguous of a term. It assumes too much. Simply because a man is churched, doesn’t mean he’s saved. The truth regarding salvation is not based on hypotheticals, but revelation. In both the verses I referred you to, it is God who saves you: “He saved us…,” You cannot save yourself, you were required to believe in His Son, and through that faith, God saved you, giftwise (Eph. 2:8-9). Do you think He didn’t know you before He saved you?

. Let us pray for Godly wisdom and understanding. We both cannot be right

Pray for the Holy Spirit to open your mind to God’s Word. It is always right.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Ozzie:

BINGO*…“Not that I would want to”* is the key. When one is saved regeneration by the Holy Spirit occurs as well, and along with it an inward desire to be pleasing to the Lord, and a joy of one’s own salvation. I answered your question as you asked it, but “backslider” is too ambiguous of a term. It assumes too much. Simply because a man is churched, doesn’t mean he’s saved. The truth regarding salvation is not based on hypotheticals, but revelation. In both the verses I referred you to, it is God who saves you: "He saved us…," You cannot save yourself, you were required to believe in His Son, and through that faith, God saved you, giftwise (Eph. 2:8-9). Do you think He didn’t know you before He saved you?Pray for the Holy Spirit to open your mind to God’s Word. It is always right.

Br. Ozzie, There are born again christians who have truly given themselves to the Lord and have fallen into sin. Not that I would want to doesnt mean that it doesnt happen. Satan is constantly seeking those he can lead us into temptation. Some christians are not rooted deeply enough and fall into sin,including myself. Yes ,the Holy Spirit is always right,its us that lack the understanding. God Bless.

 

[exrc]

Philthy:

Thanks for the nice complement you gave to MariaG and me on another post. I hope you have a blessed Thanksgiving.

Phil

You’re welcome!

Let me clarify a bit further.

God can only forgive us, once we appropriate Jesus’ sacrificial atonement for our sins.

I can forgive someone for sinning against me, without making him atone for that offence. This brings about communication between us once again, and can enable fellowship. Guilt is also removed, this is true love in action.

God does this for the same reason, after we have been pronounced righteous by him at the second birth. We become his children at this point. Our Father now wants to have a personal relationship with us.

Do you see how forgiveness works in this context?

I have separated forgiveness from atonement at this point for practical reasons.

You want to equate atonement with forgiveness in all respects.
In other words, you want to make salvation contingent upon each and every time we confess and God forgives.

When we believe and confess ( say the same thing as the father about Jesus) ONCE unto righteousness, this appropriates individually for us that atonement. We are now forgiven of being a sinner. We are born again.

All future acknowledgements of our sins (or confessions of our sins) is to appropriate forgiveness for the purpose of restoring
fellowship with the Father, not salvation.

Phil says: As it now stands you have every human saved - believers and unbelievers alike

.

No Phil, The atonement must be appropriated, it is not available to unbelievers. They are not yet able to be forgiven because of their unbelief in Jesus. This is the only sin that can keep you out of heaven, its called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

In love Dan!

 

[Catherine_S]

Ozzie:

but “backslider” is too ambiguous of a term. It assumes too much. Simply because a man is churched, doesn’t mean he’s saved. The truth regarding salvation is not based on hypotheticals.

To try to use the Bible without help is against the Bible:

2 Peter 3:16: “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do to the other Scriptures.”

Protestants try to claim Scripture is fully clear by itself: they need no help. They contradict St. Peter. And they do twist things.

2 Timothy 2:2 “What you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” –This is making provision for the ongoing teaching of the church to keep people from twisting St. Paul and the other Scriptures. Otherwise, we have to imagine that Jesus said: Write some books - get copies made–pass them out - tell people to figure them out for themselves. – Then we will fall as Peter warned they would fall.

Jesus Himself said several times: Luke 10: 16:** “He who hears you, hear me”. In Mt 16:19: after saying He would give Peter the "keys" - a sign of authority - Jesus added: “Whatever you shall bind on earth will be bound also in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth will be loosed also in heaven.” There is a similar saying to all the Apostles in Matthew 18: 18: “Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven.Whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.” Some Protestants say this authority was given to all, and it means they should preach justification by faith. There are three things wrong: 1) We know historically how the words bind and loose were understood in the time of Christ. They meant a decision by authority as to what was right or wrong. 2) These words bind and loose never meant preaching justification by faith - no hint of that at all in the text or context.This same grant of authority is repeated at the Last Supper in John 13:20 to the Twelve: "He who receives the one I send receives me: he who receives me, receives the One who sent me." He spoke only to the Apostles,who were the only ones present.** For people today to ignore this grant of authority is to contradict the Bible.
(Mt 18: 18-20): “All power is given me in heaven and on earth. So go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,** teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you**. And behold, I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.” So Jesus commanded them to go and teach --** He did not tell them to write some books, pass out copies, tell people to figure them out for them selves. **

---

**In Acts 2:42 **the people "devoted themselves to the teaching of the Apostles."

To suppose that Luther was the one to put the church right- staggers the imagination!

---

** Scripture Sacred Tradition The Magisterium**

Shalom

 

[Catherine_S]

SPOKENWORD:

There are born again christians who have truly given themselves to the Lord and have fallen into sin. Not that I would want to doesnt mean that it doesnt happen. Satan is constantly seeking those he can lead us into temptation. Some christians are not rooted deeply enough and fall into sin,including myself. Yes ,the Holy Spirit is always right,its us that lack the understanding. God Bless.

We have not arrived…we are still on the way…Praise Him for His love and forgiveness when we confess with contrite heart and are repented!!

 

[exrc]

MariaG:

Ozzie,

Thanks for the explanation. I am confident of my salvation. In fact I would even say I know I am going to heaven. In fact, as newly saved Christian, I got up with about 4 others and talked about my salvation and how I know I am saved.

Maria,
May I say that you are confident only at this very moment that you are saved, because you are convinced that you are within the salvation guidelines of the RCC. What if all sins are “mortal” as I’ve pointed out with James 2:10, and Paul Rom. 6:23, and Adams sin. Disobedience in any fashion is worthy of death Eternally. You would literally have to spend every waking moment in the confessional. Can’t you see that you’re on the road to self righteousness? If you don’t put your total trust in Christ to save you completely, then you are trusting in your own ability to become worthy of being saved. Because you have to keep yourself away from “serious” sin, in order to maintain your salvation. Your salvation is conditional, and dependent upon your behavior. You have no assurance that you will be saved, because you haven’t lived your entire life out yet.

I am confident that I am saved because I am assured that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient , and that it fully atoned for all my sins the moment I put my trust in it, never to be taken away. That is assurance!

You Maria,
Have at most a tenetive agreement. Your assurance goes only as far as you can obey the law, and make yourself available to the provisions of forgiveness set forth by the RCC.

The difference is that in the Church that I learned about confidence of salvation, they believed that you could choose to walk away from God. In fact, walk away from your salvation.

I now can understand why the RCC appealed to you. They seemed to have a solution to your dilemma. The nazarenes created doubt where there should not have been. A very legalist bunch they are. No offence.

I believe you said you could not do horrible things and still be a Christian, Yes? (or am I mixing people up?)

It’s possible of course that a real christian could do the most heinous of things. The enemy can find a chink in anyones armor and exploit it. However, Christ’s sacrifice is more powerful than any sin, and can keep him saved through any circumstance.

So would it be a fair statement to say that someone, no matter what they said they were, would not really be a Christian if they committed murder, since a truly saved Christian wouldn’t/couldn’t? walk away from Christ and do such a thing?

No, There two categories:

1. the religious unbeliever who thinks he is saved because he joined a church and was baptized.( calls himself a christian)

2)The truly born again believer who fell victim to the devils wiles.
( but is still saved)
Here we have a perfect example of wheat and tares.

God Bless,
Maria

You also, Dan!

 

[Pax]

Ozzie:

Not all “Protestants” are as Biblically/theologically grounded as we. You’ll notice neither “exrc” nor I have ever given you answers based on our own opinions or hypothetical situations. They’re always based on the written Word of God.

Here again you play it fast and loose with the truth. **exrc, ** has used hypotheticals and some really off base analogies in his posts. You, Ozzie, have injected your own opinions in virtually every post based upon your “personal” interpretation of the Holy Word of God. I apologize if this all sounds uncharitible, but your claims do not coincide with what you post.

 

[triton]

Even many of the greatest Saints in history were terrified they might be condemned to hell. Ponder that for a moment.

Seems the closer one gets to God the more clearly they understand their own sinfulness.

If we can be intellectually honest here we must admit that there is only one true Church founded by Christ - the Roman Catholic Church. Through His Church Christ has given us the means to attain eternal life.

All Christian denominations can ultimately trace their lineage back to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It is very sad that divisions and further sub-divisions have forced many Christian denominations farther and farther away from the true Church.

This separation from the Holy Sacraments instituted by Christ to help us reach eternal life does not make it impossible to go to Heaven - I believe just incredibly difficult.

 

[Pax]

We have covered a lot of ground but many questions have remained unanswered. Both exrc and Ozzie have claimed that we do not need to confess our sins as we commit them in order to be saved. exrc contends that we only need to confess to restore the damage done to our communication with God. If I have misconstrued your terms in any way I hereby apologize. I believe, however, that I have summarized your position correctly.

I have previously asked exrc to provide biblical evidence that directly addresses the issue of repentence to establish his position that continuing to repent/confess only affects our “communication” with the Father and “in no way affects our salvation.” This specific request has never been addressed. I will submit but one verse for the consideration of both Ozzie and exrc on this issue but there are others. Please read the following with an open mind and heart and do not play your favorite game of distorting the context which requires us to constantly correct you. I will tell you in advance that this is written to Christians and is about Christians (i.e. the saved) and any claims to the contrary are utter nonsense. Here it is:

2 Corinthians 7:-11
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Maria,
… What if all sins are “mortal” as I’ve pointed out with James 2:10, and Paul Rom. 6:23, and Adams sin. Disobedience in any fashion is worthy of death Eternally.
…
You also, Dan!

Ozzie,

exrc has, in this quote, layed down another “hypothetical” on the heels of your false claim that you guys don’t engage in this kind of thing. Moreover, he has been shown from scripture that there are both mortal and non-mortal (i.e. venial) sins. I wonder what really motivates you guys to do this stuff. It does not help your cause but only establishes more strongly that which you object to, and for that I thank you.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Maria,
…
Can’t you see that you’re on the road to self righteousness?
…

exrc,

You still continue on this gambit of works righteousness which leads me to believe that you do not read, study, and digest the things we tell you.

The Catholic church has always condemned works righteousness. What the Church has not done is what you have done. Catholics can comfortably quote James 2:24 and comfortably say “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” while you cannot. It is scripture pure and simple but you cannot say it. Instead you will say, “a man is saved by faith alone” which is nowhere stated in scripture.

The Catholic Church “fully” and “completely” affirms the power of God in her teachings while your teachings limit the power of God. When God said, “Let there be light there was light” because God’s word goes out in power. So when God declares that we are justified and are a new creation then that is what we are. As a new creation we are as Paul tells us alive in the Spirit and dead to sin. We are no longer enslaved to sin but we are instead enslaved to righteousness. You can read about this in the book of Romans if you don’t believe me.

John tells us that we are now children of God. In fact John says it this way, “SEE WHAT love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.[1 John 3:1] Then John goes on to say in 1 John 3:3-8, " And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.”

Now take time to think about all of this. None of this is possible by our own doing. We do not purify ourselves and avoid sin on our own and thereby earn our way into heaven. The Church condemns such thinking. Instead “everything” is by the grace of God. And when God pours out His grace on His children he does so “lavishly.”[Eph 1:7-8]

Always remember that God’s grace goes out in power and it prospers in that to which He sends it. Is this so hard to believe and to understand? Think of all the things God did in creation and all of the miracles he has worked for and upon man. God even made Balaam’s donkey **speak words ** as seen in Numbers 22:30. If God can and did all of these things, then why is it so hard to understand the fullness of His power and grace in the life of a Christian? If we are really a new creation then we really do live in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit. We do not as John points out follow Satan by commiting sins.

I and the other Catholics on this thread rejoice in the power of God in our lives. We trust in God alone. It is as stated in 2 Corinthians 12:9, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." It is all by grace and it is all for the greater honor and glory of God.

Now exrc, if you still do not agree with Catholic teaching at least disagree with what it truly is, and not some silly stereotype or caricature. Catholic teaching embraces all of scripture and we have been demonstrating this to you as we’ve proceeded in this thread. Learn what the Church does teach and accept that as the official teaching before attacking the Church by setting up a straw man and an erroneous understanding based on misinformation.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Maria,
A very legalist bunch they are. No offence.
QUOTE]

exrc,

You mistakenly call us legalists because we accept all of scripture. Jesus gave us the Church, the Scriptures, and Tradition. Everything that God says and does is good. As Catholics we embrace these things, yet you call us legalists as if these things are religious formulas. You see the Church, and thus God’s teachings, as tyranical and legalist because you only see in them the things that displease you. What displeases the human mind and heart are mere folly compared to that which comes from God.

 

[Ozzie]

MariaG]Thanks for the explanation. I am confident of my salvation. In fact I would even say I know I am going to heaven.

On what basis? Maria, you’re not saved by believing you’re saved. Nor are you going to Heaven simply because you’re convinced you’re going there. You’re saved and your citizenship is in Heaven because you’ve believed in the only begotten Son of God, and because of that faith IN Christ God saved you:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, it (salvation) is a gift of God…” (Eph. 2:8-9).

"…who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, (2 Tim. 1:9-10).

“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds we have done in righteousness…” (Titus 3:4-5).

Point being, it’s God who saves, cleanses us from all sins, redeems us and reconciles us to Himself through Christ, not you.

The difference is that in the Church that I learned about confidence of salvation, they believed that you could choose to walk away from God. In fact, walk away from your salvation.

But they never understood who it was who actually saved them. They were under the unbiblical impression that it was their faith that saved them and their lack of faithfulness could “un-save” them. But it’s God who does the saving through faith in Christ, and God doesn’t walk away from those whom He saved, those whom He redeemed (purchased) through Christ’s blood.

1COR. 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”

1COR. 7:23 “You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.”

 

[exrc]

Pax:

We have covered a lot of ground but many questions have remained unanswered. Both exrc

and Ozzie have claimed that we do not need to confess our sins as we commit them in order to be saved. exrc contends that we only need to confess to restore the damage done to our communication with God. If I have misconstrued your terms in any way I hereby apologize. I believe, however, that I have summarized your position correctly You are correct.

I have previously asked exrc

to provide biblical evidence that directly addresses the issue of repentence to establish his position that continuing to repent/confess only affects our “communication” with the Father and “in no way affects our salvation.” This specific request has never been addressed. I will submit but one verse for the consideration of both Ozzie and exrc on this issue but there are others. Please read the following with an open mind and heart and do not play your favorite game of distorting the context which requires us to constantly correct you. I will tell you in advance that this is written to Christians and is about Christians (i.e. the saved) and any claims to the contrary are utter nonsense. Here it is:
Thanks Pax, you have done all the leg work for me on this one.

2 Corinthians 7:-11
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation

and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.
Salvation in this verse is **soteria (noun) **inthe greek means: rescue or safety (in the physical,or mortal sense)

When they repented Pax, their fellowship (communication)was restored with God, otherwise they would have perished, because they were commiting sins that lead to physical death. We killed two birds with one stone on this one buddy!

I am sad that you are still missing the big picture Pax.

You have conditional eternal life.

I have guaranteed eternal life.

Which is better?

 

[exrc]

Pax:

exrc:

Maria,
A very legalist bunch they are. No offence.
QUOTE]

exrc,

You mistakenly call us legalists because we accept all of scripture. Jesus gave us the Church, the Scriptures, and Tradition. Everything that God says and does is good. As Catholics we embrace these things, yet you call us legalists as if these things are religious formulas. You see the Church, and thus God’s teachings, as tyranical and legalist because you only see in them the things that displease you. What displeases the human mind and heart are mere folly compared to that which comes from God.No Pax, you are a legalist because you put conditionals on eternal life that God never intended there to be. That is exactly what the Pharisees did. They turned the Jewish festivals, and the law into a means of salvation, instead of a way to clearly see ahead to the messiah. Just as you do with the sacraments, they are not a means of salvation Pax, they are there for us to **define, remember, and celebrate **what Christ did for us.

Come to Christ alone as a little child Pax, and be comforted by eternal security! You’re always welcome!

Your friend Dan!

 

[Pax]

exrc:

You are correct.

Thanks Pax, you have done all the leg work for me on this one.
Salvation in this verse is **soteria (noun) **inthe greek means: rescue or safety (in the physical,or mortal sense)

When they repented Pax, their fellowship (communication)was restored with God, otherwise they would have perished, because they were commiting sins that lead to physical death. We killed two birds with one stone on this one buddy!

I am sad that you are still missing the big picture Pax.

You have conditional eternal life.

I have guaranteed eternal life.

Which is better?

You have failed to refute anything. You use the word communication whereas scripture uses the word “salvation”. Salvation in this verse refers to eternal salvation and any other claim is simply a denial of the obvious context. Nice try!!! Thank you for killing your own non-scriptural doctrine. The only problem is you can’t see it or bring yourself to admit it.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

No Pax, you are a legalist because you put conditionals on eternal life that God never intended there to be. That is exactly what the Pharisees did. They turned the Jewish festivals, and the law into a means of salvation, instead of a way to clearly see ahead to the messiah. Just as you do with the sacraments, they are not a means of salvation Pax, they are there for us to **define, remember, and celebrate **what Christ did for us.

Come to Christ alone as a little child Pax, and be comforted by eternal security! You’re always welcome!

Your friend Dan!

Dan,

Try refuting something I have said using scripture. You make references that refer to us as legalists and pharisees as if this is a refutation. We have taken great pains to show you from scripture the error of your doctrine. You have not been able to refute our scriptural references. That is of course because that is what scripture says. I can call you a lawless pseudo-christian just as easily as you call me a pharisee, but name calling is pointless and unchristian. Moreover, I don’t believe that you are lawless or a pseudo-christian. I simply think that your doctrinal beliefs would allow someone to be lawless, which is something the NT forbids. Instead we have made every effort to fairly evaluate your doctrine and in every case it fails to meet the scriptural test.

As a final informational note, I would like you to know that Catholics approach our faith as little children and we willing sit with mother Church which is the body of Christ for our Christian discipleship. We know the truth because we have a reliable teacher. We have a teacher with direct lineage, tradition, history, and the scriptural bona-fides to be recognized as the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church of Jesus, Himself. All others fail this simple set of criteria.

 

[Catherine_S]

Pax:

Ozzie,

exrc has, in this quote, layed down another “hypothetical” on the heels of your false claim that you guys don’t engage in this kind of thing. Moreover, he has been shown from scripture that there are both mortal and non-mortal (i.e. venial) sins. I wonder what really motivates you guys to do this stuff. It does not help your cause but only establishes more strongly that which you object to, and for that I thank you.

I second that! This was an old cat and mouse game…leading no where ! Ears that hear but do not hear and eyes that see but do not see ! For to see and to hear would tumble the house of cards.:yup: Christains share and build community… that can not happen here.:nope: Great how God can take lemons and turn them into lemonaid !! I thank Him for that !!!

 

[Catherine_S]

exrc:

I am sad that you are still missing the big picture Pax.

Excerpts from very good articles…If you care to read them you may get a glimps of the **big **picture … and where rugged Individualism can lead when practiced in religion.

catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp

Indeed, this reaction is what characterizes the Wahhabite movement that dominates Saudia Arabia and inspired Osama bin Laden’s ideology. Philosopher Roger Scruton notes that in the Wahhabite view,** **“whoever can read the Quran can judge for himself in matters of doctrine.”

---

This attitude, which is tantamount to an Islamic version of sola scriptura, is likely to prove as durable in Muslim circles as it has been in Protestant Fundamentalist circles. As long as that is the case, there will be fresh waves of Muslim martyrs willing to take the Quran’s statements on killing literally, apply them to today, and then hurl themselves into combat with whomever they perceive asthe Great Satan.

More of the Big picture

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0408/opinion/marshall.htm

My own view is that** many of the problems of contemporary Islam** are more like Protestant problems than like Catholic problems, and therefore that something more akin **to a dilution **of Protestantism is required.Perhaps instead we should be urging an Islamic Counter-Reformation.

Let’s begin with Scripture. One Protestant emphasis is sola scriptura, which stresses reliance on the Bible alone, rather than on tradition, reason, and natural law thinking.Might there be a parallel in Islam, where one of the problems in contemporary thought, especially amongst more reactionary thinkers, is precisely scripturalism and literalism? Wahhabis, for example, seem to believe that they can start the process of interpretation of the Koran and the hadith anew, without reliance on traditional Islamic schools of law, theology, and philosophy.Hence they move in a mechanical way from the ancient text to its present application in sheer disregard of the myriad hermeneutical problems over which they glide.

Seeing the Big picture requires connecting the dots…God has given us intellect and the Holy Spirit to do this always !

Shalom

 

[exrc]

Pax:

Dan,

Try refuting something I have said using scripture.

I just did, using your own verse.

You make references that refer to us as legalists and pharisees as if this is a refutation.

I am sorry you cannot see the similarity.

We have taken great pains to show you from scripture the error of your doctrine.

I have as well.

You have not been able to refute our scriptural references. That is of course because that is what scripture says.

Pax, Ive had JW’s give better arguments.

I can call you a lawless pseudo-christian just as easily as you call me a pharisee, but name calling is pointless and unchristian.

I am not trying to insult you, please stop inferring that. .

I simply think that your doctrinal beliefs would allow someone to be lawless,

That’s OK, they said the same thing about Paul in Romans 3:8

Your Friend Dan!