I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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truths merely give greater glory and honor to the power of God’s grace in the lives of men.

Point #11
1 Timothy chapter 3 does not teach that a bishop “must” be a married man. If this were true Paul, himself, would have been disqualified and many of his other remarks would have no meaning. In 1 Corinthians 7:7-9 Paul says, “I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.” Paul would actually prefer that people remained unmarried so as to dedicate themselves fully to God. The reference in 1 Timothy 3 means that a bishop can only be married once. Historical evidence shows that early Christians that were married and became a bishop did not remarry upon the death of a spouse. This is what that verse is really about. Celibacy among Catholic clergy is a Church imposed discipline under the powers “to bind and loose,” and was put in place to make it possible for clergy members to be fully dedicated to God without the additional responsibilities and distractions that marriage and family would bring. This actually helps our clergy to be more like Paul and what he is talking about in 1 Cor 7:7-9.

Point #12
Luke 22:24-27 is in no way opposed to the primacy of Peter. All of the NT scriptures attest to Peter being the chief apostle. In Matthew 16:18 Peter alone is given the keys to the kingdom, and Peter is always, with only one exception, listed first and is shown over and over again to be the first among the twelve. The position of Peter among the apostles was granted by Jesus Himself. In Luke 22:24-27 Jesus is admonishing the apostles for disputing among themselves as to who was the greatest. This kind of rivalry has no place in their call and ministry. Jesus points out that they are servants and that they should follow His example. This having been said, Jesus is above everyone else that has ever lived. Paul puts all of this into perspective in Phillipians 2:5-7 when he says, “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”

Point #13
Luke 16:26 does not oppose purgatory. This verse refers to the rich man who is suffering the torments of hell and Lazarus the beggar who is in a place of comfort referred to as the bosom of Abraham. The verse in no way addresses the issue of purgatory. While the word purgatory is not in scripture there are many verses in scripture that pertain to it. If you like, I can email you some helpful details in this regard.

Point #14
Scriptural silence, as you perceive it, does not mean that something lacks scriptural foundation. Moreover, it is important to note that scripture in no way prohibits any of the things you are concerned about. You contend that scripture says nothing about many
 
things found in the Catholic Church. Well there are many things in Protestant Churches that are not found directly in scripture either. Such things as altar calls, Wednesday night worship services, the terms “Trinity” and “Incarnation”, and many other things held and practiced by Protestants are but a few that can be mentioned. The fact that certain things may not be directly stated in scripture does not negate their spiritual value.

Your contention about certain Catholic things not being in scripture needs closer examination. Let’s take confession which is on your list. This one is so clearly outlined in scripture that I find it hard to believe that my bible savvy Protestant brothers and sister do not see it. Because they apparently don’t see it in scripture they wonder why Catholics confess their sins to a priest. The short answer to this is that we do it because God set it up that way. Let’s begin with the OT. In the book of Genesis we read all about the fall of Adam and Eve and about Cain killing Able. While God knew exactly what had happened and what sins had been committed, God still asks Adam and Eve [see Gen 3:11-14] what they had done. Again, when Cain kills Able in Gen 4:10, God asks Cain “What have you done?” God wants us to confess and it is therefore necessary for us to do so.

So where does the priest fit in? In Leviticus 5:5-6 we have a solid prefiguring/foreshadowing of confession and this is carried over into the New Covenant. In Lev. 5:5-6 it says, “When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, and he shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.” Note how the penitent must confess and take his sin offering to the priest, and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. This requires knowledge of the sin on the part of the priest.

In the New Testament we have a number of verses that refer to the authority to forgive sins. In Matthew 9:6-8, we read “But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic --“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men." Notice how scripture says that such authority had been given to men. This is significant and is not merely a coincidence. This is the inspired word of God.

The question of authority and power to forgive sin is given obviously to Jesus and this is further affirmed in Matthew 28:18 where we are told, "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

So just how is this authority transfered to the apostles and their successors? In John 20:21-23 "Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” This is an incredible set of verses. They are rich in meaning and power. Notice that Jesus sends the apostles in the same way that the Father sent Him. The Father sent Jesus with all power and authority which included the power to forgive sins. So also Jesus sends the apostles. Jesus breathes on the apostles and says, "receive the
 
Holy Spirit." There is only one other time in all of scripture where God breathes on man, and that is in Genesis when God breathes life into Adam. This is a significant moment in the upper room and it is at this moment that Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven: if you retain the sins of any they are retained.” Obviously, the apostles must know the sins, just like in the OT example in Leviticus, if they are to either forgive or retain the sins of another. The sins must be confessed.

Later in the New Testament scriptures we find additional verses that speak to confession and reconciliation. The most significant are the following:
2 Corinthians 5: 17-20
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
James 5:14-15
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters [priests] of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:16
Therefore confess you sins to one another….

Explanations for infant baptism and any other issues you have are answered by the Catholic Church in the most sublime and satisfying of ways. You must, however, have an open heart. The Catholic Church is your spiritual home this side of eternity. It is the fullness of the Christian faith. I hope that you find these verses and explanations helpful.
 
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michaelp:
You are right. But to tell you the truth, I read the statement more generally. If this would have been said about Protestants, I would also have to agree. I think that all people have the tendency to read their theology back into the text (including me). Some groups (including Protestants) have more of an “obligation” to read their theology into the text than others because their traditions necessarily bind them.

I am sorry. I did not mean to imply (and I know it did) that only Roman Catholics do this. We all do to varying degrees. Thank you for the correction.

Michael
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While I do not entirely agree here, I will not quibble over you view. It is not at all unreasonable to see things this way.
 
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Des:
Your right Pax. This is quite offensive and if he keeps talking like that, he shouldn’t be surprised to find himself banned from this forum.
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I think he “EXRC” probably Wants to be banned from this forum. Then he won’t have to worry about finding a gracefull way out. I think he feels like he is cornered. Why else would he feel the need to talk so hateful and unchristian like.

Robin
 
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Robin:
I think he “EXRC” probably Wants to be banned from this forum. Then he won’t have to worry about finding a gracefull way out. I think he feels like he is cornered. Why else would he feel the need to talk so hateful and unchristian like.

Robin
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He does this all the time !!! :rotfl:It is his thing !!! Kind hearted and charitible Catholics always take his bait but he does not appreciate their efforts at sharing their beliefs!!! He knows the truth…:yup:**… but can not live with it !! :nope: **
Pride coupled with love of controversy is a deadly combination. Paul offers a chilling description of a certain kind of contentious individual, saying “he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men” (1 Tim. 6:4–5).
Shalom,
Catherine
 
Wow, only two posts and everyone is in a tizzy! :tsktsk:

First let me say that I DO NOT hate nor dislike Catholics, after all, most of my family is Catholic. I myself was a Catholic for more years than many of you have been on this earth and because of this my heart is burdened for those who remain in bondage to a false religious system.

I truly believe that Catholicism is **Apostate Christianity! **
It is a system of pride, self-righteousness, merit and works. It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety in making her into another Christ ( She is Sinless, our Co-Redeemer, Another Mediator, Queen of Heaven etc) It teaches that the Church is built upon a mere man rather than God who is **THE ROCK. **It teaches to trust in the traditions of men rather than the Word of God. It teaches that we can contribute something to our own salvation. This is not what the first century Church taught!

There are really only two “religions” in the world;
Gods and mans!
Mans is his attempt to reach up and earn the favor of God,
Gods is coming down to save man!

Rather than trying to answer all the responses to my posts, I would like to submit one simple question:

How do you intend to get to heaven?

In Christ Alone,
Mike :amen:
 
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xrc:
How do you intend to get to heaven?

In Christ Alone,
Mike :amen:
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Through the merciful Jesus Christ. He suffered and died for our sins. How do you intend to get to heaven?. Only God can judge us. We don’t know specifically who will go to heaven because we can not judge others, but those who follow Jesus Christ will go to heaven, in a nutshell.

Read the Bible. It says who will have everlasting life.

You said you were Catholic. I am guessing that there was some particular teaching, probably of a sexuality nature, that you have great difficulty in living and therefore decided the Church must be wrong. Pride gets in our way always. I know it gets in my way. If you are honest with yourself, I am guessing that there is something that you just never worked through, so now you are building your case for why it is ok that you left the Catholic Church. The one that you vowed before God to follow, I think. Anyway, God has his plan for you. If it isn’t God’s will for our posts to make any sense to you at this time, then they won’t, but I hope you clear the way by getting rid of anger and some pride.
 
I truly believe that Catholicism is Apostate Christianity!
It is a system of pride, self-righteousness, merit and works. It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety in making her into another Christ ( She is Sinless, our Co-Redeemer, Another Mediator, Queen of Heaven etc) It teaches that the Church is built upon a mere man rather than God who is THE ROCK. It teaches to trust in the traditions of men rather than the Word of God. It teaches that we can contribute something to our own salvation. This is not what the first century Church taught!
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I truly believe that if you have found the Truth you would not have to misrepresent Catholic teachings. The only possibilities are: 1. You were the worst-educated Catholic ever and the misrepresentations are out of ignorance. 2. You were a Catholic with correct understanding of Church teaching and are deliberately misrepresenting them (i.e. lying). 3. You were never a Catholic and are just spouting canned objections from the tired anti-Catholic playbook (i.e., big fat liar)

So which are you? Ignorant, liar, or big fat liar?

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
I truly believe that if you have found the Truth you would not have to misrepresent Catholic teachings. The only possibilities are: 1. You were the worst-catechised Catholic ever and the misrepresentations are out of ignorance. 2. You were a Catholic with correct understanding of Church teaching and are deliberately misrepresenting them (i.e. lying). 3. You were never a Catholic and are just spouting canned objections from the tired anti-Catholic playbook (i.e., big fat liar)

So which are you? Ignorant, liar, or big fat liar?

Scott
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WhatIf:
Through the merciful Jesus Christ. He suffered and died for our sins. How do you intend to get to heaven?. Only God can judge us. We don’t know specifically who will go to heaven because we can not judge others, but those who follow Jesus Christ will go to heaven, in a nutshell.

Read the Bible. It says who will have everlasting life.

You said you were Catholic. I am guessing that there was some particular teaching, probably of a sexuality nature, that you have great difficulty in living and therefore decided the Church must be wrong. Pride gets in our way always. I know it gets in my way. If you are honest with yourself, I am guessing that there is something that you just never worked through, so now you are building your case for why it is ok that you left the Catholic Church. The one that you vowed before God to follow, I think. Anyway, God has his plan for you. If it isn’t God’s will for our posts to make any sense to you at this time, then they won’t, but I hope you clear the way by getting rid of anger and some pride.
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Can you be serious? You don’t even know the guy. This statement seems like it is the one that is filled with pride. Can there not be people who have serious theological problems with the RC system. You you have to accuse them of sexual sin? That is not a wise assumption and will only deter anyone from taking you seriously.

Michael
 
1. Do not flatter yourself Mike…:rotfl:…!!

2. With Him…In Him and Through Him !
**
**Shalom,
Catherine

Catherine I wasn’t trying to flatter myself, I was only making an observation! Please don’t be so thin skinned! 🙂

Your response to my question was pretty vague so let me pose another: If you were to die tonight and God asked you why He should let you into His heaven, what would you say?
**In Christ Alone, **
**Mike :blessyou: **
 
Dear WhatIf,
It appears that you have a problem with me rather than my posts!

Through the merciful Jesus Christ. He suffered and died for our sins. How do you intend to get to heaven?.

I intend to reach heaven by Gods grace, through faith in Jesus Christ ALONE! Now are you able to answer one more question: Is there anything you must do to gain eternal life?

Only God can judge us. We don’t know specifically who will go to heaven because we can not judge others, but those who follow Jesus Christ will go to heaven, in a nutshell.

I appears that you have judged me by accusing me of some sort sexual sin. This is curious, since you don’t even know me. But this is typical of someone who cannot defend the unbiblical teachings of the Catholic Church. Instead of a spirited debate you resort to personal attacks! How cowardly!

Read the Bible. It says who will have everlasting life.
You said you were Catholic. I am guessing that there was some particular teaching, probably of a sexuality nature, that you have great difficulty in living and therefore decided the Church must be wrong.

Just where did this come from? Did you consult with the dead to obtain this information? The Roman Catholic Church is wrong because it’s teachings are in opposition to the Word of God! And please correct your grammar (sexuality nature) How about a sexual nature!

Pride gets in our way always. I know it gets in my way. If you are honest with yourself, I am guessing that there is something that you just never worked through, so now you are building your case for why it is ok that you left the Catholic Church. The one that you vowed before God to follow, I think. Anyway, God has his plan for you. If it isn’t God’s will for our posts to make any sense to you at this time, then they won’t, but I hope you clear the way by getting rid of anger and some pride.

**Again, you don’t know me yet you continue with your personal attacks rather than make an attempt to defend your faith. It seems that you are guilty of the pride you accuse me of displaying! **

In Christ Alone,

**Mike 🙂 **
 
😦 Scott,

**Are you as angry as you appear? :tsktsk: **

I truly believe that if you have found the Truth you would not have to misrepresent Catholic teachings.

**Please show where I have misrepresent Catholic teaching?:hmmm: **

The only possibilities are: 1. You were the worst-educated Catholic ever and the misrepresentations are out of ignorance.

I was educated by priests and nuns for 12 years and was instructed in the Catechism for 8 of those years.
  1. You were a Catholic with correct understanding of Church teaching and are deliberately misrepresenting them (i.e. lying).
Like others I have responded to, you resort to personal attacks rather than trying to defend your unbiblical faith!
  1. You were never a Catholic and are just spouting canned objections from the tired anti-Catholic playbook (i.e., big fat liar)
**More personal attacks and no attempt to defend your faith!
So which are you? Ignorant, liar, or big fat liar?

You display the maturity of a 5 year old! What are you? Ignorant, blind or deceived?

Scott
Let Our Lady’s Blue Scapular protect you.

You must be truly blind! You believe that a piece of blue cloth can save you, how pathetic!
 
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michaelp:
Can you be serious? You don’t even know the guy. This statement seems like it is the one that is filled with pride. Can there not be people who have serious theological problems with the RC system. You you have to accuse them of sexual sin? That is not a wise assumption and will only deter anyone from taking you seriously.

Michael
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Michael, thank you for your kind words. It appears that you are the only one who is interested in serious debate, the others are only interested in winning a debate through personal attacks.
**:blessyou: **
**Mike **
 
Mike,

Why do you keep saying that ours is an “unbiblical” faith? Because we believe things not in the Bible? Has it never occurred to you that the Holy Spirit who has guided the Church from its beginnings has revealed these things to us AFTER THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN? Do you not believe that God continues to reveal truths to the Church he founded?
 
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Booklover:
Do you not believe that God continues to reveal truths to the Church he founded?
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So the thread still continues. No, we do not believe in post-apostolic revelation. The Church is being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Jesus being the corner stone (see Eph. 2:20-22; 3:3-6, 9). That’s one of the basic reasons we can’t accept “faiths” like Mormonism or Islam. I saw this post on another thread, thought you people would be interested:

“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth." St. Athanasius (Against the Heathen, I:3)

“Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC)

“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.” St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Holy Trinity, NPNF, p. 327).

“We are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.” St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection NPNF II, V:439)

“What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.” Basil the Great (The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC).

“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.” St. Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, Chapter 7, par. 16)

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures. St. Cyril of Jerusalem” (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in NPNF, Volume VII, p. 23.)

“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.” St. Augustine (De unitate ecclesiae, chp. 10)

“Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.” - St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.” - St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

“They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed.” - St. John Chrysostom (First Corinthians, Homily 20, PG 61.164)

“For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law.” - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651).
 
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Ozzie:
So the thread still continues. No, we do not believe in post-apostolic revelation. The Church is being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Jesus being the corner stone (see Eph. 2:20-22; 3:3-6, 9). That’s one of the basic reasons we can’t accept “faiths” like Mormonism or Islam. I saw this post on another thread, thought you people would be interested:
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In other words you’re one of the “cafeteria” Christians who want to pick and choose what they want to believe! Typical Protestant ideology. You tell God what He can and cannot do? Right?
 
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