I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

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xrc:
I truly believe that Catholicism is **Apostate Christianity! **
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That is because you were incorrectly taught, your false impression of what the Catholic Church teaches leads you to error. For instance you say:
It is a system of pride, self-righteousness, merit and works. It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety. . . .
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This is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches. Please, pray to the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see. Also, if you want to know what “what the first century Church taught”, read what the first century writers wrote. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings. No one today can do that.

May the peace of Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
 
Everybody try to slow down here and calmly address one another with at least some degree of Christian charity and aplomb.
 
XRC,

I think that there may be a slight misunderstanding on who is being addressed in some of these posts. If you look at earlier posts in this thread you will see numerous posts by an individual identifying himself as exrc. His name is Dan and he is someone other than you. I think that some of the posts were directed at some of his earlier remarks or some posters may think that you are him.

Anyway, let’s work a little harder at having a reasonably calm exchange.
 
xrc,

I addressed your fourteen points. I hope that my retort was helpful to you. I am curious if, at least on the points I addressed, you now take a different view of the Catholic Church and its teachings. If you remain convinced that my responses are incorrect, then I would I like to know why on a point by point basis.

Thanking you in advance,

Pax
 
xrc,

You have come into this thread very late in the game. I don’t know how much of it you have read, but your questions concerning Catholic teaching on salvation have been covered in depth. If you have a specific question concerning some element of particular posts that addressed the issue, we would certainly be happy to revisit it. Your question, however, takes us back to square one and has essentially been debated at great length.
 
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Booklover:
Mike,

Why do you keep saying that ours is an “unbiblical” faith? Because we believe things not in the Bible? Has it never occurred to you that the Holy Spirit who has guided the Church from its beginnings has revealed these things to us AFTER THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN? Do you not believe that God continues to reveal truths to the Church he founded?
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**Roman Catholicism is not the Christianity that was once for all handed down to the saints! ****Jude 3 states, “…I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” **Throughout the centuries the Roman Catholic Church has added their “Traditions” to the True Faith, thus nullifying the Word of God. In Mark 7: 9, 13 Jesus states, "…You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition…thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
**Catholics misunderstanding about the definition of the Church occurs when the concepts of “organism” and “organization” are blurred. Composed of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Church is a living, breathing, growing organism–not a static organization, hobbled by iron-clad traditions! When the Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church, He wasn’t revealing a blueprint for building a rigidly structured ecclesiastical organization with multi-tiered levels of power and authority! No way! Jesus had real people in mind! His Church is described as His Body and His Bride! Our Lord was looking forward to a living, growing, vibrant relationship with His redeemed people–a restoration of the loving fellowship between God and the people He had created in His own image. **
Although there must be a structure of authority and spiritual leadership within each individual local church, the New Testament does not describe the universal Church as a hierarchical, structured organization. The Church universal, as the living, growing, active Body of Christ, is compared to the human body in many places in Scripture. (Read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.) The healthy human body is a living, growing, active organism, with myriad complex characteristics and functions. Each part of the human body has its part to play. There is no “hierarchy” in the body’s parts. Ultimately, the “head” (brain) “calls all the shots” for the proper functioning of the body.

In the same way, the universal Church is a living, growing, active organism, with many different “parts,” and Christ is the “Head” (Ephesians 4:15-16). Every local church is unique, with its own characteristics and mission. As important “Body parts,” each individual believer and each local church should receive direction from, and should answer directly to, Christ, the Head of the Body. An individual Christian can best practice this truth of the unity of the Body of Christ by first being non-sectarian, and second, by being actively involved in a Christ-honoring, Bible-teaching local church that takes its direction straight from the Head of the Body.
In Christ Alone,
**Mike:wave: **
 
Ozzie,

You are up to your old tricks. You have often complained about context only to be an example of your very complaint. Your quotes are misleading at best. Do you have any idea why the Catholic Church declared those that you have quoted to be Saints? It is because they were faithful to the Catholic Church’s teachings and lead truly heroic Christian lives. You remove their words from the proper context to make it appear that they believed and taught something contrary to Catholic teaching. If they had done so, then they would never have been canonized as Saints by the Catholic Church. They did not believe or teach that we are “saved by faith alone” in any sense that resembles your arguments on this thread. Try reading everything they’ve written and you will figure this out in a hurry.
 
xrc said:
**Roman Catholicism is not the Christianity that was once for all handed down to the saints! **Jude 3 states, “…I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints” Throughout the centuries the Roman Catholic Church has added their “Traditions” to the True Faith, thus nullifying the Word of God. In Mark 7: 9, 13 Jesus states, "…You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition…thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
**Catholics misunderstanding about the definition of the Church occurs when the concepts of “organism” and “organization” are blurred. Composed of all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Church is a living, breathing, growing organism–not a static organization, hobbled by iron-clad traditions! When the Lord Jesus said that He would build His Church, He wasn’t revealing a blueprint for building a rigidly structured ecclesiastical organization with multi-tiered levels of power and authority! No way! Jesus had real people in mind! His Church is described as His Body and His Bride! Our Lord was looking forward to a living, growing, vibrant relationship with His redeemed people–a restoration of the loving fellowship between God and the people He had created in His own image. **
Although there must be a structure of authority and spiritual leadership within each individual local church, the New Testament does not describe the universal Church as a hierarchical, structured organization. The Church universal, as the living, growing, active Body of Christ, is compared to the human body in many places in Scripture. (Read 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.) The healthy human body is a living, growing, active organism, with myriad complex characteristics and functions. Each part of the human body has its part to play. There is no “hierarchy” in the body’s parts. Ultimately, the “head” (brain) “calls all the shots” for the proper functioning of the body.

In the same way, the universal Church is a living, growing, active organism, with many different “parts,” and Christ is the “Head” (Ephesians 4:15-16). Every local church is unique, with its own characteristics and mission. As important “Body parts,” each individual believer and each local church should receive direction from, and should answer directly to, Christ, the Head of the Body. An individual Christian can best practice this truth of the unity of the Body of Christ by first being non-sectarian, and second, by being actively involved in a Christ-honoring, Bible-teaching local church that takes its direction straight from the Head of the Body.
In Christ Alone,
**Mike:wave: **
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While creative and novel, your presentation is not in keeping with scripture at all, and lacks truth in your accusations against the Church. Now before we go any further, try some kind of response to the rebuttal that I made to your fourteen points. If you wish to have an intelligent and meaningful dialogue, then you must discuss what is on the table. I tried to do this with you, but you seem intent on simply moving on to a new attack that lacks any more merit than your first one.
 
xrc said:
Michael, thank you for your kind words. It appears that you are the only one who is interested in serious debate, the others are only interested in winning a debate through personal attacks.
**:blessyou: **
**Mike **
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xrc,

I’ll take that as a personal shot since I did my patient best to engage you. Oddly, however, you have not responded to me in kind. I’m game for serious debate.
 
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RBushlow:
That is because you were incorrectly taught, your false impression of what the Catholic Church teaches leads you to error. For instance you say: **It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety. . . . **

This is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches. Please, pray to the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see. Also, if you want to know what “what the first century Church taught”, read what the first century writers wrote. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings. No one today can do that.

May the peace of Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.****
If my impressions of the Catholic Church are incorrect than it shows that 12 years of being taught the Catechism and the Catholic faith by priests and nuns was insufficient. However, this is not the case. I know the Catholic faith very well and if you would remove your “Catholic Glasses” and read the Scriptures without your preconceived notions, you too would see that what is taught is unbiblical!
**Are you saying that Christ is not re-presented as a sacrifice in the Mass thousands of times each day? **
Why is there a need to look to the “Church Fathers” when we have the written word of God? The Church Fathers were not infallible but Gods word is!
Now can you answer three simple questions?
Tell me, just what is the purpose of the Mass?

Why, in Catholic teaching, does Mary mimic Jesus? (Sinless, a Co-Redeemer, an Advocate, a Mediatrix, Assumed into heaven etc.)
If you were to die and were standing before God and He asked you, “Why should I let you into My heaven” what would you say? I’m really waiting for someone to answer this one!
In Christ Alone,
**Mike :love: **
 
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Booklover:
In other words you’re one of the “cafeteria” Christians who want to pick and choose what they want to believe! Typical Protestant ideology. You tell God what He can and cannot do? Right?
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Are you saying that anyone who believes in the bible alone is a “cafeteria Christian?” You had better check the position taken by the Church Fathers of whom Catholics often quote when they support their view. Please check Ozzie’s post #1310.
**You appear to be the one who picks and chooses what to believe. Instead of trusting in the word of God you choose to trust in the traditions of men! You are guilty of the same thing for which Jesus rebuked the Pharisees ! :tsktsk: **
"You set aside the word of God in order to keep your tradition."
In Christ Alone,
Mike
 
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xrc:
,. I know the Catholic faith very well and if you would remove your “Catholic Glasses” and read the Scriptures without your preconceived notions, you too would see that what is taught is unbiblical!

In Christ Alone,

**Mike :love: **
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Judging by every post you’ve made, I would say THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW THE CATHOLIC FAITH AT ALL! Everything you believe is a misconception and a distortion of what the Church actually teaches. If you would remove your “evangelical glasses” you would see that what the Church teaches is the truth.

Where did you get the information about the church from, Jack Chick, Ian Paisley and Co??? It certainly didn’t come from any Catholic source! 😃
 
xrc said:
:rotfl:Looking towards Rome is not a bad idea Ozzie. Many in our day are doing just that.…the road that leads to Rome is very busy indeed…you are welcome too!!

Shalom

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=1&SeriesID=-6892289
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**I actually agree with you on this one! The road to Rome is very busy indeed…and so is the road to hell! 😦 **

In Christ Alone,

Mike
HEY MIKE, SO NOW YOU’VE BECOME OUR JUDGE AND JURY AND ARE CONDEMNING US TO HELL???😛
 
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xrc:
If my impressions of the Catholic Church are incorrect than it shows that 12 years of being taught the Catechism and the Catholic faith by priests and nuns was insufficient. . . . . I know the Catholic faith very well
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Your false and erroneous impression of what the Catholic Church teaches indicates that you do not know the faith at all. Again, you state:
It is a system of pride, self-righteousness, merit and works. It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety. . . .
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This is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches. These errors indicate that your faith was incorrectly taught. Please, pray to the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see.

If you want to know what “what the first century Church taught”, read what the first century writers wrote. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your faith journey.

Yours in Christ.
 
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xrc:
Why is there a need to look to the “Church Fathers” when we have the written word of God? The Church Fathers were not infallible but Gods word is!
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The word of God is inerrent but your interpretation is not. The people first generation Church leaders, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others, were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings. No one today or even the 16th century reformers have that kind of knowledge.
If you were to die and were standing before God and He asked you, “Why should I let you into My heaven” what would you say? I’m really waiting for someone to answer this one!
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The scripture is quite clear on this. Our Lord Jesus Christ said it in Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Christ said in Luke 10:26-28
“He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he andwering sail, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heard and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And He said unto him, Thou has answered right; this do, and thou shalt live.”

These are the words of Jesus Himself. Of course, if you would prefer to take the words of men who weren’t even around until 1600 years later, that is your decision.

Heavenly Father, we pray the You will open our eyes and lead us to the pillar and foundation of Truth which You gave us to guide us in our journey to you.
 
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RBushlow:
The word of God is inerrent but your interpretation is not. The people first generation Church leaders, Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others, were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings
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Well now, this is certainly an interesting statement. Can you tell me where these Patristic, expository, verse by verse, commentaries on the N.T. Epistles are kept? Who has access to them?
Christ said in Luke 10:26-28 “He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he andwering sail, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heard and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And He said unto him, Thou has answered right; this do, and thou shalt live.” These are the words of Jesus Himself. Of course, if you would prefer to take the words of men who weren’t even around until 1600 years later, that is your decision.
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This too is a very interesting comment. Jesus quotes the Law to a Jew who, at that time, is under the Law. And yet after the cross (and because of the cross) Paul states *“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law” *(Rom. 3:28). And in reference to his Jewish brethren, Paul states, *“But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith that was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor (child-conductor) to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor” *(i.e., the Law, Gal. 3:23-25). And concerning his Jewish brethren he states elsewhere, *“Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to Another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God” *(Rom. 7:4). “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter” (i.e., the Law, Rom. 7:6). So one is neither saved by any commandments of the Law, nor can one even bear fruit or serve God through the Law.

So let’s compare. You claim that one is saved/justified by abiding in the commandment of the Law to love God with all his heart, soul, strength and mind, and his neighbor as himself. Yet Paul states very emphatically that the reason for the Law was not at all to save (Law can only condemn) but to lead men to Christ in order that they may be saved strictly by faith.

Now you also claim that what you teach is Patristic, hence, even those writers differ with Paul. But can you quote for me all those Patristic writers who taught that by the works of Law men are saved/justified?

And, don’t forget, let me know where I can get copies of those verse-by-verse commentaries written by Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and the “others,” that interpret all of the Epistles. Such works are most valuable to me since according to you, “all of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings,” and, “no one today or even the 16th century reformers have that kind of knowledge.” None of the Patristic writings that I’ve seen interpret the whole Book of Romans or Hebrews or any of the Epistles. I’m anxious to read Polycarp’s commentary on the Book of Revelation. Please get back with me quickly!
 
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GoodKnight1443:
Lisa,

The only “group” that might think you and I are both going to hell for our beliefs might be Pentacostal Baptists or at least my coworkers who are Pent. say so. 🙂

I am not an apologist or a Catholic scholar, so to me, it is pretty basic. All Protestants while they may be good Christian people, don’t believe one can receive the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ through Holy Communion. I wish that all of our Christian bretheren could share this beautiful sacrament but that is what is missing from the Protestant belief. There you go, no scipture lesson, lecture or treatise.

Have a blessed Christmas.
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Jesus can never be presented again as a sacrifice, by a priest or anyone! The Bible presents clear teaching on this matter, in the book of Hebrews chapter 9:
"24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another - 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

In the sermon known famously as the Olivet Discourse, Jesus warned the world about the coming of false “christs.”

“For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)

So it will not be just the ignorant that will be fooled by this, but smart people too. The apostle Peter also warned us about this in 2 Peter chapter 2:

“1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.”

The preceding analysis makes it clear. Jesus has not returned, in the form of the Eucharist, or any other. The Eucharist is a false “christ”. And equally important, Jesus cannot ever be presented as a sacrifice again. What Jesus did by presenting Himself on the cross for us to die for our sins is done forever and will not ever be repeated.

In Christ Alone,

Mike :tiphat:
 
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RBushlow:
Your false and erroneous impression of what the Catholic Church teaches indicates that you do not know the faith at all. Again, you state:
This is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches. These errors indicate that your faith was incorrectly taught. Please, pray to the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see.

If you want to know what “what the first century Church taught”, read what the first century writers wrote. Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement and others were taught directly by the Apostles. All of the Apostles (Peter, Paul, James, Jude . . .) explained to them the intended meaning and correct interpretation of their writings.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your faith journey.

Yours in Christ.
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Quote:
It is a system of pride, self-righteousness, merit and works. It teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to pay our sin debt and therefore Christ must be represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day. It elevates a mere creature (Mary) to the status of diety. . . .

This is not at all what the Catholic Church teaches. These errors indicate that your faith was incorrectly taught. Please, pray to the Holy Spirit to give you eyes to see.

**Are you saying that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was sufficient? If this is true why is He **represented as a sacrifice thousands of times each day?

**I suppose you don’t believe that Rome has elevated Mary to the status of diety either! ****The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) states:
**
#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death. The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.

The popular prayer following the Rosary for Catholics is the “Hail Holy Queen.” It starts, “Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope.” This is the offering of ones life and hope to the Queen of Heaven. The official litany of the Roman Mary calls her, “Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of Peace”

This is quite similar to what the perverse believers did in Old Testament times as recorded by the Prophet Jeremiah in chapter 7 “The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.”
Are you aware that prayer is a form of worship? Just how many prayers in the rosary are directed to Mary versus God!
**If you were to die and were standing before God and He asked you, “Why should I let you into My heaven” what would you say? I’m still waiting for someone to answer this one! :whistle: **

In Christ Alone,

Mike
 
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