I am a Protestant who wants an honest answer

[Pax]

Ozzie,

I notice that you haven’t taken me up on my offer to send you the file of over sixty five verses that deny the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved.” My offer still stands if you are interested.

In your prior posts you deny that there is more than one type of grace. For this to be true then the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love must all be synonyms for one another. This is obviously not true. Each is a special gift/grace from God. Your understanding in this area is not from scripture, your understanding is from the doctrines of your church tradition.

The examples of different graces could be multiplied many times over such as the gift of teaching, the gift of prophecy, etc. All these gifts are grace from God. This is really pretty basic stuff. You are the only Christian that I have ever heard make this denial.

 

[Ozzie]

Pax:

Ozzie, I am repeating, here, something I have posted on two other threads. Please try to refute the my understanding of the following quotes from scripture. So far no one else has.

Pax, one must get back to the basics when it comes to discussing salvation: “For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Salvation is never by faith plus: loving God on my part, perseverence on my part, baptism on my part, partaking in sacraments on my part, joining a church on my part… in fact it’s always, “by grace through faith…” Simple? Yes indeed. God has made it that way through Christ. I don’t care how much you guys argue against it, you won’t change God’s Word.

“In this is love, not that we loved God, BUT THAT HE LOVED US and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 Jn. 4:10).

Yes, the saved love God because of Christ, but loving God does not save us. Personal faith in what He accomplished through Christ FOR US is what causes God to save us, to justify, to sanctify, and to one day glorify us. It all began and will end with Christ. ALL TO HIS GLORY.

The legalist can neither comprehend this nor will he accept it.

Thanks for your offer of the list of verses that refute "once saved always saved, but I’m a stickler for context, dear brother. Too many of you guys pull verses out of context like a magician pulls rabbits out of a hat.

 

[fulloftruth]

From JesusFreak16:

No human person can determine if you or any other living person will “for sure” go to Heaven or “for sure” go to Hell when he/she dies, not even the Pope or all the Catholic bishops throughout the world assembled together in council.

Actually because Peter was given the power of binding and loosing in heaven and on earth, and all of the Apostles had offices that needed to be filled upon thier vacancy (i.e. Judas, Acts 1:20)which is an explicit assertion of successsorship, and so the Charisms needed to fulfill the “great commission” were handed on by the Holy Spirit, at ordination or by Christ himself, i.e. Paul, then the Pope could concievably excommunicate someone, and essentially ban them from the Heavenly Jerusalem. But since the Holy Spirit guards such Papal decisions from error, because nothiing imperfect can be bound in heaven, then it would be essenially the same as God doing it himself.

I could be wrong on this, not sure, just thinking out loud.

 

[fulloftruth]

Pax, one must get back to the basics when it comes to discussing salvation: “For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Salvation is never by faith plus: loving God on my part, perseverence on my part, baptism on my part, partaking in sacraments on my part, joining a church on my part… in fact it’s always, “by grace through faith…” Simple? Yes indeed. God has made it that way through Christ. I don’t care how much you guys argue against it, you won’t change God’s Word.

“In this is love, not that we loved God, BUT THAT HE LOVED US and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 Jn. 4:10).

Yes, the saved love God because of Christ, but loving God does not save us. Personal faith in what He accomplished through Christ FOR US is what causes God to save us, to justify, to sanctify, and to one day glorify us. It all began and will end with Christ. ALL TO HIS GLORY.

The legalist can neither comprehend this nor will he accept it.

Thanks for your offer of the list of verses that refute "once saved always saved, but I’m a stickler for context, dear brother. Too many of you guys pull verses out of context like a magician pulls rabbits out of a hat.

It is amazing how someone can be so sure and so wrong. It reminds me of the need for Papal authority. Proper exegesis is always needed and the tradition of the Church for 2000 years has been to follow the whole of Scripture and not to wrench out certain verses to reach an end. After a while the Reformers worked with the premise of the Church is wrong, how can we prove it, instead of letting the word lead them to the truth, which can be done if thier are no prior biases. James says we are not saved by faith alone but faith working in love, and St. Paul never says we are saved by faith alone, and only condemns works of the law. How that leads you to a personal once saved always saved I’ll never know. Why then would Christ say the test at his return will be not did you simply believ in me but what did you** do** for me. When I was sick, hungry, naked, in jail, etc. This requires letting the Spirit work through you. It is not a wage or a way to buy your way into heaven. It is selflessly doing the work of Christ and ministering physically to his brothers and sisters on earth. It is being merciful to those who wrong you and forgiving those who sin against you, so that you will be forgiven. Not because you have already been forgiven and don’t need to worry about it, you need to worry about it becaus eafter you are baptised and washed clean you add new sins that need to be forgiven, which is why Christ when he healed people said go and sin no more . That requires a submission of will to the Spirit, and we must respond to the call of Christ, that is our part. It wasn’t enough that he did it, we need to do our part. Or we would all be saved no matter what.

 

[fulloftruth]

Sorry Jesus Freak I accidentally attributed a quote to you on thread 122 that was not yours. I sincerely apologize

 

[1962Missal]

Ozzie:

Yes, but not in a salvation context. The context determines how the word is being used. Being “saved by grace” is far different than Steven being “full of grace.” The former is how one is saved according to “divine favor” through faith in Christ. The latter is the power of God’s “favor” working through the believer who is already saved by faith.

Would you say that, in this passage, it is by grace alone that St. Paul’s works are done?

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

Note that this work is subsequent to, and entirely dependent upon, justifying faith.

If you can say yes, then you have some idea of what Catholics mean by “gracious works” and, perhaps, can see that the idea is not a contradiction in terms. It is to such works that we believe James refers when he says that man is not justified by faith alone.

Justin

 

[1962Missal]

Ozzie:

The legalist can neither comprehend this nor will he accept it.

I wonder, are the doctrines of forensic justification and imputed righteousness part of what you claim we cannot accept?

If so, then I hope that the irony of you calling us legalists is not lost on you.

Justin

 

[Ozzie]

fulloftruth:

James says we are not saved by faith alone but faith working in love, and St. Paul never says we are saved by faith alone, and only condemns works of the law. How that leads you to a personal once saved always saved I’ll never know.

You’ll never know because you’ve taken your eyes off Christ and what He’s done for us completely and perfectly and once for all on the cross

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (1Cor. 15:1-3).

(1) It was a Gospel (good news) preached to them.
(2) They received (believed) that message.
(3) They’re saved BY it.

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (vss. 3-4).

(4) The message most important, the message that saves is that Christ died for our sins (ALL of them), was buried and rose on the third day.

This my friend is the message that is to be believed to be saved. It is simple and it predates the Roman church with its contrary message which you yourself state:

Not because you have already been forgiven and don’t need to worry about it, you need to worry about it becaus eafter you are baptised and washed clean you add new sins that need to be forgiven, which is why Christ when he healed people said go and sin no more… It wasn’t enough that he did it, we need to do our part.

This is the formula for religion, not faith. You nullify the cross of Christ.

Paul does teach salvation by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-10. And justification by faith alone (Rom. 3:30; 4:5). It is the legalist who argues against him and present another gospel (Gal. 1:6-10). Our salvation is based on Christ’s cross, our assurance of salvation is an empty tomb:

“He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification” (Rom. 4:25).

It’s the simple Gospel message that’s 2000 years old, but so is the opposition against it. The opposition just takes on various forms, religious or secular.

 

[KidaneMehret]

JesusFreak16:

So no one can “know without a doubt” that he/she is going to heaven? I hope you don’t believe that. I hope you know you are going to heaven.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

I know all the means that lead me to Heaven. I just need to follow “that narrow road” for every other road leads to perdition.

To use someone else’s example, suppose you buy a ticket to go to Florida. You know the departure time, you go and pack, call the cab driver to take you to the airport. Once at the airport, you refuse to get on the plane. If you convince yourself that you already are in Florida without getting on the plane, just because you believe you were ready, the fact still remains that you have not arrived at your final destination.

Can I honestly ask you if your question is meant sincerely to save Catholics or are you trying to convince yourself that you have made it to heaven; yet there is this nagging feeling that won’t go away, no matter how much you read scriptureto give you the conviction that you have made it to eternal bliss. To save catholics, please pray for us. We need prayers more than anything. We are sinful creatures who disappoint God over and over again like spoiled brats who are given everything by their parents and yet fail to use the gift. Pray for catholics to be able to “work their salvation in fear and trembling” to imitate St. Paul.

As far as I know, the Church canonizes saints regularly, till this day, I have not heard one single official proclamation from the Church to let us know who went to hell.

 

[KidaneMehret]

JesusFreak16:

So no one can “know without a doubt” that he/she is going to heaven? I hope you don’t believe that. I hope you know you are going to heaven.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

I know all the means that lead me to Heaven. I just need to follow “that narrow road” for every other road leads to perdition.

To use someone else’s example, suppose you buy a ticket to go to Florida. You know the departure time, you go and pack, call the cab driver to take you to the airport. Once at the airport, you refuse to get on the plane. If you convince yourself that you already are in Florida without getting on the plane, just because you believe you were ready, the fact still remains that you have not arrived at your final destination.

Can I honestly ask you if your question is meant sincerely to save Catholics or are you trying to convince yourself that you have made it to heaven; yet there is this nagging feeling that won’t go away, no matter how much you read scriptureto give you the conviction that you have made it to eternal bliss. To save catholics, please pray for us. We need prayers more than anything. We are sinful creatures who disappoint God over and over again like spoiled brats who are given everything by their parents and yet fail to use the gift. Pray for catholics to be able to “work their salvation in fear and trembling” to imitate St. Paul.

As far as I know, the Church canonizes saints regularly, till this day, I have not heard one single official proclamation from the Church to let us know who went to hell.

 

[MIDGIE]

Ozzie:

So it sounds like you turned to a church organization rather than Christ Himself to “fill your emptyness.” ."

Why wouldn’t we turn to the Church that Christ Himself established? All Graces necessary for our Salvation are flowing out to the world through the Catholic Church…and that includes the Bible.

God bless you

 

[Ozzie]

1962Missal:

Would you say that, in this passage, it is by grace alone that St. Paul’s works are done? Quote: 1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

Don’t overlook the first part of Paul’s statement: “But by the grace of God I am what I am…” Paul very well understood, and teaches clearly in his Epistles, who and what he, and all believers, are in Christ Jesus (see 2 Cor. 5:17, 21: i.e., a new creature made righteous). Paul’s work and office was unique, being an Apostle, but his salvation, the basis of it, and his new identity IN CHRIST, are not.

Paul, in that passage, does not say he labored harder than the other Apostles to gain or maintain his salvation. Both his salvation and his work, subsequent to it, were the product of and in accordance with divnine grace. Just as he teaches elsewhere: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).

The message of Paul to the unsaved world was that they believe in the Savior who is offered to them in limitless grace. His message to the saved (past, completed tense) is that they “walk worthy” of the calling with which they have been called (Eph. 4:1). Works, dear brother, are most certainly a part of one’s salvation, being “created in Christ FOR good works,” but works, even those done by the grace of God working in you, serve no part in the process of saving you. It is ALL of Christ, requiring only belief on the part of the sinner. Paul is the most clear regarding this infinite truth, and he never deviates from it because he was well aware of his preveious, destitute condition:

“It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example
for those who would believe in Him for eternal life” (1 Tim. 1:15-16).

I wonder, are the doctrines of forensic justification and imputed righteousness part of what you claim we cannot accept? If so, then I hope that the irony of you calling us legalists is not lost on you.

Justification and righteousness are more than merely legal terms. They are part of the believer’s new identity, being in Christ. They are the believer’s reality. I pray that these truths are not lost on you.

 

[1962Missal]

Ozzie:

Don’t overlook the first part of Paul’s statement: “But by the grace of God I am what I am…” Paul very well understood, and teaches clearly in his Epistles, who and what he, and all believers, are in Christ Jesus (see 2 Cor. 5:17, 21: i.e., a new creature made righteous). Paul’s work and office was unique, being an Apostle, but his salvation, the basis of it, and his new identity IN CHRIST, are not.

Paul, in that passage, does not say he labored harder than the other Apostles to gain or maintain his salvation. Both his salvation and his work, subsequent to it, were the product of and in accordance with divnine grace. Just as he teaches elsewhere: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

Very good. You just taught authentic Catholic doctrine.

Justification and righteousness are more than merely legal terms. They are part of the believer’s new identity, being in Christ. They are the believer’s reality. I pray that these truths are not lost on you.

They aren’t lost on me at all. The problem is not with justification and righteousness, but with *forensic * justification and *imputed * rightousness. Courtroom terminology, if I ever heard it. One might almost say, legalism.

Justin

 

[MariaG]

Ozzie,

Respectfully, you do have some misconceptions of Catholic Teachings. Catholics do not believe you can work your way to heaven or earn your way to heaven.

The difference between Catholic and Protestant is that Protestants think that once you are saved, good works flow naturally. Catholic Christians believe that grace is made available for good works, but that we make a choice each and every time to follow grace by acting on the grace made available. This is why you hear Catholics emphasize good works. Because every good work I choose to do, is a conscious choice to continue to follow Christ.

The work will not earn me heaven. My choice to follow Christ is how I get to heaven. The Bible is clear that if you do not really have faith if you do nothing. But the works itself are only an outword indication of the inward choice to keep following Christ.

 

[Ozzie]

MIDGIE:

Why wouldn’t we turn to the Church that Christ Himself established? All Graces necessary for our Salvation are flowing out to the world through the Catholic Church…and that includes the Bible.

Well first of all, Midgie, you’re question is based on a great assumption, and that being that the Roman church is the church that Christ “established.” This is certainly the claim of the Roman church, but its claim is based on a faulty interpretation of Matt. 16:18 regarding Peter, the “rock” and the “kingdom.”

Secondly, one must question whether or not the idea that Christ “founded” a church is even valid (word in question being “founded”). The Bible never speaks of Christ “founding” a Church but instead continuously “building” His Church, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles in each generation. Both having access in one Spirit to the Father. A temple whose foundation is the Apostles and New Testament prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being its cornerstone (see Eph. 2:18-22). According to the Bible Jesus did not begin building His Church in Rome but Jerusalem. From there the Word of Christ spread out to Samaria, Antioch and then to the whole world, bringing Gentiles into the fold as well. Eventually the Word even reached Rome.

And thirdly, the idea that “all graces necessary for salvation” flow out to the world through the Roman church has not Biblical support. In respect to salvation there are no such things as “necessary graces” (plural). The only GRACE (singular) necessary for one’s complete salvation is provided by God Himself, based on the Person and work of Jesus Christ through the cross: “Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom (personal pronoun, referring to Christ, not any church) also we have obtained our introduction BY FAITH into this GRACE (singular) in which we stand…” (Rom. 5:1-2, emphasis mine).

 

[Ozzie]

MariaG:

Ozzie,

Respectfully, you do have some misconceptions of Catholic Teachings. Catholics do not believe you can work your way to heaven or earn your way to heaven.

The difference between Catholic and Protestant is that Protestants think that once you are saved, good works flow naturally. Catholic Christians believe that grace is made available for good works, but that we make a choice each and every time to follow grace by acting on the grace made available. This is why you hear Catholics emphasize good works. Because every good work I choose to do, is a conscious choice to continue to follow Christ.

The work will not earn me heaven. My choice to follow Christ is how I get to heaven. The Bible is clear that if you do not really have faith if you do nothing. But the works itself are only an outword indication of the inward choice to keep following Christ.

One is not saved BY following Christ, one is saved by believing the gospel message concerning Him and the cross. That means that He, there on the cross, took upon Himself ALL our sins - past, present and future. Yes, once saved we are to be obedient to our Lord, but it is not that obedience, i.e., to “follow” Him, that saves. It is the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5; 16:26) that saves.

I really don’t have a misconception of RC’ism.

 

[Jehu13]

Lisa,
As a former Protestant, I have to say that I was sure I was going to heaven. Now I hope that I am going to Heaven. I have to emphasize Hope because, like St Paul “I do not even Judge myself”. I am not God so I will not say I will go To Heaven or Hell or Purgatory, but I will say that I have confidence that God will purify my heart and temper it so that I be “worthy”. I say that tongue in cheek because there is nothing that I do to earn my salvation, but I can lose it. Thank God for the Sacrament of Penace ie Confession. I hope that I am in a State of Grace. Can I honestly say you are not or you are going to Heaven, I again I will say I am not God so I will not judge you. I can not even judge myself but I can tell you that it would be better if you had the Fullness of Christianity if you joined the Catholic Church. Christ left us the means through the sacraments to become one with him.
One more thing when one assumes that they are going to Heaven, it say to me that One is judging oneself. Again we can not do that. I hope that I have explained myself. If not just pm me or text me.
Peace of Christ be on you.
Lupe

 

[MariaG]

You’ve misrepresented what I just said to you. You read things into it that weren’t said. You are misrepresenting Catholic Christian teachings. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[RBushlow]

Ozzie:

I really don’t have a misconception of RC’ism.

Ah, but you do. You also have a misconception of what the Bible teaches.

 

[StSteverino]

Ozzie:

Pax, one must get back to the basics when it comes to discussing salvation: “For by grace you are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Faithful Catholics could not agree more. We are saved ‘through faith’, not by faith. We are saved by Grace. Faith itself is indeed is a Gift of God. We can not earn salvation. The Catholic Faith absolutely rejects that error and rejected it long before anyone ever heard of Luther, Zwingli or Calvin.

***But Faith is not mere opinion. The scriptures and Paul, in particular, are clear; our Faith must be lived and clung to. We can not live it with out grace. No good work belongs to the Catholic, anything ‘good’ we do is from and to Christ by His Power in our lives. ***

We are always pointing our Separated brothers to James Epistle to remind you that Faith without works is dead.

***But it is deeper than that; Works are Faith. That is if they are empowered by the Life of Christ in us. We call it the Obedience of Faith. ***

---

***We are counted among the Redeemed, not the Saved. No early Christian presumed Election the way you guys do, Paul least of all. ***

---

True, works can be dead. So can faith if it is mere opinion. A lot of the ‘testimonies’ you hear at the typical come to Jesus mens breakfast are nothing but swamp gas.

---

Still, I do not know which, because unlike God, I can’t be sure of discerning others hearts.

---

Which is why I find it odd all the backslapping pride of ‘ain’t it great to be counted among heavens own’ you get at the typical come to Jesus meeting and how dad gum sure those folks are that the Catholics just don’t get it.

---

Funny thing is, when they get into smaller groups, not only are they sure they the Catholics have false hearts and false religion, but they are not too sure about the other protestants. Show me an anti-Catholic Calvinist and in his private moments he will confess that those Arminian Methodists are worse than Catholics and in fact that last Presbyterian Church he belonged to had betrayed the Reformation, blah, blah, blah… but when they come back into the big group, hey we are all the elect of God, so bless Jesus we are not like those Catholics.

---

***Read the Parable of the Publican in Luke. One guy is saying, Praise the Lord, you answered my Jabez Prayer and the other guy is beating his chest saying ‘mea culpa’. ***

---

Guess who looks Catholic.

---

Now I am being a bit blunt and robust, so forgive me. I really respect your Puritan heart. Tomorrow I will be visiting my Reformed of Reformed friends who bravely join hands with us pagans and agree to stand up to the Sin of Manasseh at the local altar of Moloch where our next generation is being slain.

---

But the grace we have recieved is a ‘deposit’, it is not title free and clear. We do not ‘earn’ heaven, but we sure can forfeit it.

---

Peace, Joy and Kindness in the Holy Spirit,

---

Steve

Salvation is never by faith plus: loving God on my part, perseverence on my part, baptism on my part, partaking in sacraments on my part, joining a church on my part… in fact it’s always, “by grace through faith…” Simple? Yes indeed. God has made it that way through Christ. I don’t care how much you guys argue against it, you won’t change God’s Word.

PS-They are CHRIST’S sacraments. He instituted them and that is in the Word and confirmed in the life of the earliest Christians. They are His gifts to us.

Peace again.