I am an atheist thread 3

[holdencaulfield]

How christian of you to say.
Have a lovely night anyway.

I know, I apologize for my actions. I’m sorry I was tired and lost my temper. That was completely wrong of me I admit it.

 

[lkddav]

I posted the rules of evidence in previous posts. The definitons were met in scientific, phlospjy, and law definitions. Christianity’s evidence was placed in a mock trial in the Harvard law school and guess who won.

Thats right Christianity and the bible,

Hello 659

The key word here is “mock”. This proves nothing
OJ won too…

I searched for information on this mock trail and didn’t find it.
Do you have a source for it??

 

[lkddav]

There are more stories like that. You might say these are just coincidence, or medically explainable, or that I’m just crazy. I know what I saw and the real reasons behind it all. Maybe it *I]is *

all medically explainable… doesn’t mean God can’t work through science… He made science! But all these things together tell me there’s something more to just living and dying. You don’t have to believe. God will work in ways you don’t expect and in ways most people will ignore and brush off. But I know from experience God’s trying to help us even in the little things (like my ring and countless stories like it).

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Hello psyche

Thank you for your story. But you are right. They are just stories everyone has about their faith. Just wishful thanking.

 

[c659smith]

Hello 659

The key word here is “mock”. This proves nothing
OJ won too…

I searched for information on this mock trail and didn’t find it.
Do you have a source for it??

First hand the evidence is put before you and the evidence is true. It is not I who must prove evidence that has been collected and certified through the thousands of years and taken as fact by the civilized world… For it is you Atheist that must disprove this evidence or you live the lie.

A Convict in Jail must disprove the evidence and facts that convicted him. Not the other way around.

I will find the info. on the trial and post it but you already have denied that evidence by your comments on O.J.

 

[c659smith]

Ikdda

The Case For Christ

OK, if I’m a lawyer, and I’m viewing the case for Christ through legal goggles, what am I missing? Anything…? Surely, other analytical legal minds have weighed the evidence in “the case for Christ”…

Again, I was truly stunned to find that great legal minds had already done this…

Check these guys out…

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853) was one of the founders of Harvard Law School. He authored the authoritative three-volume text, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence (1842), which is still considered "the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure."1 Greenleaf literally wrote the rules of evidence for the U.S. legal system. He was certainly a man who knew how to weigh the facts. He was an atheist until he accepted a challenge by his students to investigate the case for Christ’s resurrection. After personally collecting and examining the evidence based on rules of evidence that he helped establish, Greenleaf became a Christian and wrote the classic, Testimony of the Evangelists.

Let [the Gospel’s] testimony be sifted, as it were given in a court of justice on the side of the adverse party, the witness being subjected to a rigorous cross-examination. The result, it is confidently believed, will be an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability, and truth.2
Sir Lionel Luckhoo (1914-1997) is considered one of the greatest lawyers in British history. He’s recorded in the Guinness Book of World Records as the “World’s Most Successful Advocate,” with 245 consecutive murder acquittals. He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II – twice. Luckhoo declared:

I humbly add I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.3
Lee Strobel was a Yale-educated, award-winning journalist at the Chicago Tribune. As an atheist, he decided to compile a legal case against Jesus Christ and prove him to be a fraud by the weight of the evidence. As Legal Editor of the Tribune, Strobel’s area of expertise was courtroom analysis. To make his case against Christ, Strobel cross-examined a number of Christian authorities, recognized experts in their own fields of study (including PhD’s from such prestigious academic centers as Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis). He conducted his examination with no religious bias, other than his predisposition to atheism.

Remarkably, after compiling and critically examining the evidence for himself, Strobel became a Christian. Stunned by his findings, he organized the evidence into a book entitled, The Case for Christ, which won the Gold Medallion Book Award for excellence. Strobel asks one thing of each reader - remain unbiased in your examination of the evidence. In the end, judge the evidence for yourself, acting as the lone juror in the case for Christ…4

As a “lone juror,” I sat quiet in my chair…

As jurors often do in the jury room, I asked to return once again to a provoking piece of evidence…

I qm sure it will take awhile for any comments from the peanut gallery.

 

[_A]

Well, if you really want to know… it’s kind of long…

When I was a child I went to this Catholic Conference with my family. I remember telling my mom in the car on the way there that I would see a miracle that day. She told me that God doesn’t really work that way and it was unlikely ect,ect,ect…-I was a much bigger believer than everyone else my age that I knew. We get there and in the middle of the conference I walk outside with a friend and see the sun dance. It was beautiful. Pretty soon everyone from the whole building is outside starting at this marvel.

Fast forward to Highschool.

I had a really bad eating disorder in Highschool. Depressed and feeling like the only people that cared was my family and i was doing a huge disservice to them by being alive. Tried killing myself several times but could never do it because in the back of my mind I knew God would hate it if I really went through with it. One night I’d taken lots of pills and went to sleep. There was no reason for me to get up, and I truly did want to die so disputing this would be ridiculous… anyway I woke up and felt compelled to go get my mom. I woke her up and told her what I did. I couldn’t figure out why in the world I would spoil my plan… but I just felt this presence and it couldn’t be ignored…

Later on (different story)

I lost my favorite ring and needed it for graduation. I was going frantic because my aunt and uncle had given it to me and they would want to see me wear it. I looked for months. I finally went to my mom and asked her. She had no idea but said she would pray to St. Jude to help. I dismissed it. Later she asked me to look in the attic (of all places)- and there it was!!! I never take it off to remind me that God helps me even in the smallest of situations if only I would ask him for help.

Fast forward…

My best friend who’s older calls me and tells me she has cancer. Her Doctors tell her it looks malignant and to expect the worst. It’s the worst type there is… she goes in to get one last test with everyone pretty much knowing what to expect but they have to be thorough anyway… I pray like I’ve never prayed before begging God saying if he would take the cancer-make it go away or at least benign, then I would consider being a nun- many people had asked me but I ignored it - A LOT! Next day her results come in and not only has part of the cancer disappeared, but the last part is benign! I later came to the realization God just wanted me to give up control of my life and not fight him. He didn’t necessarily want me to be a nun, just to trust him.

There are more stories like that. You might say these are just coincidence, or medically explainable, or that I’m just crazy. I know what I saw and the real reasons behind it all. Maybe it *I]is *

all medically explainable… doesn’t mean God can’t work through science… He made science! But all these things together tell me there’s something more to just living and dying. You don’t have to believe. God will work in ways you don’t expect and in ways most people will ignore and brush off. But I know from experience God’s trying to help us even in the little things (like my ring and countless stories like it).

If He wasn’t there to help me, I know for a fact I’d still be dead. Not only that, but even IF I had survived somehow, I’d still have my eating disorder because I wouldn’t have the strentgh to fight it.

Anyway, you asked I answered. I’ve learned not to doubt in an all powerful-all loving God. I’m now a youth minister for a Catholic Church and can’t BELIEVE the peace I’m surrounded with now!!!

Take it for what you want, but nothing you can say will ever lead me to believe otherwise.

I think your successes are owed to your strength. I know you think differently, but that is just how people are.
Everyone should be congratulated on their life, because no-one else could have lived it.

 

[psyche23]

Hello psyche

Thank you for your story. But you are right. They are just stories everyone has about their faith. Just wishful thanking.

I never said it would be easy to believe especially if you haven’t gone through it yourself. Unless you go through a similar experience, you’ll just keep dismissing it as a sotry. That’s fine. email me back when you start to be more open…

 

[_A]

A, I don’t know my fish very well…What are the fish species in your second and third photos?

Nice fish, BTW!

I don’t remember which was which, so I will repost…

Meduim-sized Northern Pike (aka - Jackfish)


Medium-small Pickeral (aka - Walleye)


Medium large (to me!) Whitefish (aka - Tasty Treat - yummmm!)


Large moose. (spotted on the last summer solstice at about 3 am - notice there is sunshine at that time if day up here )


Also spotted on the river…


I have to go take some winter pics now…I’ll leave you with one…

 

[_A]

The thing is, you are making a broad generalization. When you do that, you are automatically cutting yourself off from considering the possibility that some pretty decent priests exist out there. I have not seen you write anything positive about priests on your threads.

I have had little interaction with priests which would seem positive. I don’t remember any interactions with them when I was going to church (I was quite young). I can’t fabricate stories to make them look good. I have not related anything personally experienced to make them look bad.

Since you asked, I do have one priest-story…
I was about 16 years old, and found myself homeless in my hometown. I went to our old parish, and noticed there was some work I could do. I went into the church. Not seeing anyone, I went into the back looking for Fr McNamara (the only priest I remembered). I was quickly approached by a man I did not recognize (new priest) who demanded to know what I was doing there. (I likely looked like a street-urchin…dirty clothes and such).
I said that I was looking for Fr. McNamara, who I was informed was not there any more. I said that I had no place to stay, and I was hungry. I asked if I could clean out their transoms for a place to stay or something to eat.
I was told to go to the Salvation Army downtown.
That was the charity at my parish.
I later went to a chinese restaurant, walked around back and started cleaning up around the garbage dumpster. The dishwasher came out and saw what I was doing. A few minutes later, the cook came out and told me to come and see him when I thought I was finished. I did, and they let me eat until I was full. They asked me if I needed any other help, and offered me part time work there.
That was charity at a local restaurant.

I have not had occasion to meet priests other than that. We mostly don’t run in the same circles. I meet them more now that I work in social work, but what I see is usually not that charitable, either.

If I meet some good RC priest I will mention it, but for now, my experiences have not been all that memorable.

 

[_A]

How do we define happiness in this case?

Just like with you declaring that believing in an invisible god makes you happy, we just have to take her word for it. You are the authority on your own feelings - no-one else.

 

[psyche23]

mainly I posted that story to give an eyewitness account. what others here are so depserately looking for. If you weren’t there, or if you have no faith, yes they’re just stories… I however can’t believe it was up to my own strength because:

1. My praying hard enough without Gods help surely wouldn’t have affected my friend and her cancer. It wasn’t my strength that healed her, and the doctor’s themselves said it was medically unexplainable- a miracle.
2. My finding my ring was neither my mom’s nor my own strength or determiniation. I looked everywhere, and there was no logical reason for my ring to be in the attic. No one in my family could explain why it was there either. My mother herself couldn’t say why she thought to look in the attic…
3. the sun dancing was caused neither by my strength nor determination or any one else’s there at that time. Again no explanation and coupled with the fact that I told my mom earlier that morning we would see something amazing tells me there’s more to it than a mass hallucination.
4. my strength in getting over my disorder was indeed a strength when I decided to recover. Whether it came from me or God is debatable… But the fact that at the time I tried to kill myself and seriously meant it- my strength and determination at that time was for a sole purpose. Leaving this world. So that also has nothing to do with my waking up and feeling a presence.

All these things together along with countless other events like these leads me to believe this is no coincidence, this has nothing to do with me, and that God does indeed listen and answer our prayers.

Again, you don’t have to believe. I’d be surprised if you did. But if you’re really looking for an example of God’s presence in our lives, this should help. I didn’t have to open up to any of you, and I don’t have to explain my feelings. You know my beliefs now, and you know my story. I’m sure there are countless other eye witnesses just like me.

Glad you liked my post anyway.

 

[_A]

A, it truly is the responsibility of all members of the Catholic Church to inform themselves of the teachings and laws of the Church. We have all the resources to do this, through Holy Scripture, the Catechism, Canon Law, and all the writings and Encyclicals of the Vatican (Holy See), as well as the writings of the Early Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church. In addition, there are numerous contemporary works which explain various teachings.

All available to those who can read. Also, there are many teachings counter to the catholic church. How to choose? I think you chose the one that you think is best. What if I don’t think so? Is it OK to choose Krishna, or Allah because they sound better to me?

Also, I have not met too many priests (none, come to think of it) with golden rings on every finger, a winter home in Mexico, or a Bugatti Veyron or Ferrari Enza in the driveway. You might want to look into what kind of income they receive, and also where the money goes in your average parish.

I don’t know, but the parish in my town had a huge, beautiful rectory, with a fancy new car in the driveway. My house was a small one and I didn’t even have a bicycle in the driveway.
They were rich by my standards. They could have shared a meal. Instead, they sent me to the other church for charity.

 

[_A]

Well, I did have a little nip of Baileys earlier in the evening…

Excellent choice! I wish I had one to join you (though it is a little early for me right now)

 

[_A]

I know, I apologize for my actions. I’m sorry I was tired and lost my temper. That was completely wrong of me I admit it.

Let’s leave it in the past, thanks.
The name you have chosen sounds a bit familiar. How did you select it?

 

[_A]

1. My praying hard enough without Gods help surely wouldn’t have affected my friend and her cancer. It wasn’t my strength that healed her, and the doctor’s themselves said it was medically unexplainable- a miracle.

I am curious as to why this is considered a miracle, while unexplained deaths are seldom called miracles.

 

[psyche23]

I am curious as to why this is considered a miracle, while unexplained deaths are seldom called miracles.

God promotes life. Miracles promote life. Unexplained deaths obviously do not. Death is because of our origional sin and not something God created. This has been stated before.

 

[c659smith]

I am curious as to why this is considered a miracle, while unexplained deaths are seldom called miracles.

Why sure when Moses was asking pharoh to release the jews and he did not Moses instructed the Jews to marked the doors with the blood of a sacraficial lamb.

The messenger of God an Angel then came upon Egypt in the night killing the first born male child of every household that did not have the blood of the lamb on the door of their households.

It’s called Passover

The Angel delivering the message of death passed over their homes sparing them from God’s wrath for not letting his people go.

 

[c659smith]

Another miracle involving death was Christ aloowing Lazarus to die so that in several days he would return to where Lazurus was buried and bring him back from death.

This done to show not Jesus;'s power but the powere of the Father. So that some would believe.

 

[the_phoenix]

Hello A,

Been lurking on your threads on and off as time permits.

Must say, I love your photography. May I ask if you’re a member over at the Flickr website?

Are you here at Catholic Answers both for the intellectual debate / banter on the subject of the existence of God as well as to just socialize?

The debate part interests me, especially as I read a few years back a book specifically titled “The Nature of Belief,” a profoundly philosophical work by M. C. D’Arcy, S.J published in 1945 by Sheed and Ward, but unfortunately time constraints would likely mean I wouldn’t be able to keep up with you as you deserve.

The social part interests me too … though we have enormous areas where our beliefs differ, you sound like a cool guy to know. IMHO, you are bringing up some challenging points, and hey, that’s what this forum is here for.

And partly because having grown up near the border of Canada in Western New York State, and thus having an appreciation for:

1. The Canadian side of Niagara Falls
2. The beauty of Canadian wilderness in general
3. Canadian radio and tv
4. Tim Horton’s coffee shops, which are fortunately available in Western New York where my parents live and have just recently started coming into Ohio (but sadly not close to me yet)
5. Bubbly AERO bars
6. Red Rose tea
7. Toronto
8. Phantom of the Opera
9. The Science Centre
10. More than one person has accused me of having a Canadian accent
11. Crystal Beach, especially in the good old days when it was a full amusement park … “Laff in the Dark” was a real trip!

Well, that should hopefully suffice for an introduction. Nice to meet you, A,

~~ the phoenix

 

[c659smith]

IKDDA and A

Any response from post #663